April 2nd, 2017, 02:20 PM | #1 |
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Bike done about 24000 miles, never a valve adjustment, feels weaker.
My Ninja 250 bought new in 2012 has now gone about 38 600 km, or 24 000 miles. Last year, and this spring, I believe that the engine has become weaker than what it was with about half the mileage.
The acceleration might be weaker, and the indicated tow speed is probably lower. When the bike was never, I easily reached an indicated 155 kph, or slightly above 90 mph. Last summer it was hard reaching close to 150 kph, even in what might have been a slight downhill. Valves were inspected at 24 000 km. They were within spec, according to the Bike shop. The bike has been used for my daily 45 minutes commute (each direction) and serviced yearly. When the engine feels weaker, what's normally the cause? Is it likely to improve if valves are adjusted, you think? (Once had a Kawasaki ZX 11. After a valve adjustment and tuning of carburators it definately became stronger and faster). Thanks. |
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April 2nd, 2017, 02:38 PM | #2 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
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I'm not sure you can define a "normal" cause for an engine reducing its maximum power. Some possibilities include dirty air filter, carburetors not fully opening, improper ignition timing, wrong air/fuel mixture (dirty jets), incorrect valve adjustment, and worn rings and/or cylinders.
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April 2nd, 2017, 02:45 PM | #3 | |
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Quote:
Shell V-power). The fuel is old, anyway, so it might improve a little bit when getting rid of the old gasoline. I hope a valve adjustment could help, when (/if) that day comes. Engine runs fine, without any odd noises and no disturbing vibrations. Just feels slightly weaker. Maybe it's normal for a 5 years old 24 000 miles / almost 40 000 km bike. |
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April 2nd, 2017, 03:39 PM | #4 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
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I would not expect the engine to be noticeably down on power in 24,000 miles.
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April 2nd, 2017, 07:00 PM | #5 |
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Name: Chris
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If the bike was serviced yearly, how come the Valves have not been adjusted ?
The 250r in Europe is fuel injected. The air & oil filters should have been replaced every at every annual service. The fuel filter should have been replaced or at least inspected at some point to. So was it serviced by a dealer or by you ? |
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April 2nd, 2017, 07:21 PM | #6 | |
Rev Limiter
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Use the lowest octane ethanol-free gas that's recommended in the manual for the most power and economy - which is usually "Regular". "Premium" gas will not make more power or provide noticeable benefits -but at times it's the only way to get ethanol-free gas. You may also want to run a strong fuel system cleaner like Shell Techron Concentrate (1oz per gal) if it's available. It will clean deposits from the injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers after a full tank or 2. |
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April 2nd, 2017, 09:12 PM | #7 |
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Name: Rob
Location: Winnipeg
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What about the rest of the bike?
Are the brakes dragging? Have the calipers ever been cleaned? Chain and sprockets clean and lubed? Have you checked the tire pressure? It doesn't take much on these bikes for a little extra rolling resistance to feel like less "power" when on the road. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 12:29 AM | #8 | |
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indicated speed of 75 mph / 125 km/t on such a trip. Average speed is probably around 35-40 mph. The bike has been serviced at 2 different places (AB Motor and Ride / Yamaha center in trondheim, Norway). Oil and filter have been changed, and it was serviced at 1000 km, 6000 km, 12000km, 18000 km, 24000 km., 30000 km and 36 000 km. I never did it myself. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 12:34 AM | #9 | |
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threaten to increase the ethanol content even higher. Think I should get new gasoline and add some concentrate, yes. I remember when i picked up the bike after it had been stored for more than 11 months (I stayed in SD, CA for almost a year). For the first week or more, it felt like it had lost about 20 % of it's power. It improved after some time.. May have to do with the fuel this time as well, even though it has been standing for only 4 months this time. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 12:38 AM | #10 | |
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Yes, such issues could probably add up.. (Seems like you have an XL 250. I had an '84 XL 250 a year ago, when staying in San Diego. Great bike, great fun, that as well.) Thanks for advice, from several people here. If i find that the performance improves, I'll report it here. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 01:27 AM | #11 |
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Name: Rolf
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I have had the same experience on two occassions. First when I hadn't cleaned the air filter in maybe 30 000 km (yes, my bike doesn't get enough attention). You might want to double check the workshops work, and I also think that on roads like ours the filter can fill up quickly with dirt. Especially in winter, with lots of grease and sludge.
The second experience is right now, I have a problem with the charging so voltage is low. I thought it was the battery so replaced it, it wasn't the battery but the bike ran stronger for a while. So check your charging voltage, it's a simple test. The ECU should compensate for lower voltage but it seems it doesn't fully, or quickly enough when the voltage varies due to bad charging. There are people reporting improved performance after valve adjustment, I don't understand how. When adjusting the valves you normally make them looser, meaning less valve lift and less duration. But we are talking very small differences, maybe 0.1 mm lower lift. In any case, the bike would be very slightly slower after adjustment at least at high revs. A third possibility is that the spark plugs are worn out, you don't mention them. The original plugs shouldn't last more than 40000 km. The manual says to replace them every 12000 km. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 04:15 AM | #12 | |
ninjette.org member
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The air filter was also changed not long ago, though you can never be 100 % sure unless you saw it happen. Anyway, I can't say that I mistrust the repair shop. Once had a ZX 11 run better after valve and carburator adjustments, but don't know exactly what made it run better afterwards.. Could maybe be the carbs, as the bike used to "gargle" a little bit before it came with improved power. I haven't been riding the bike since november / december, before taking it out on last Friday. The road conditions are generally not good, and of course it's a lot of sludge, snow, salt and dirt on many of our roads. Air humidity is also 78 % at the moment. I live further north than for example Anchorage, so unfortunately we have lots of ****** weather. So, air filters should have many possibilities to become filled with dirt. Several things I should check.. All in all, I'm very pleased with the 250R. |
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April 3rd, 2017, 06:08 AM | #13 | |
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I'm pretty pumped about the XL. I'm about a week away from getting it plated as it needs an inspection, but I'm close! |
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April 7th, 2017, 04:58 AM | #14 | |
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Seems like the rear brake disc is bent. i can clearly sense the increased resistance once per rotation of the rear wheel. Rear brake is "sticking" somewhat in general, it seems. Definately part of the picture here.. Found some cheap chinese discs on ebay. Don't know if it's a good idea to buy one, or if I should stick to original parts. Will check the price at the local dealership before I decide. |
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April 7th, 2017, 09:11 PM | #15 | |
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July 12th, 2017, 04:44 AM | #16 | |
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Quote:
The 250 ran much better after that, as if the power had increased by 10-20 % since the day before. I could especially feel this at low rpms. There was no valve adjustment performed, but the spark plugs were changed. I was also told that the air filter had been cleaned, as it was in a bad state. I saw one of the old spark plugs myself, and it was very dark, as if it had had too little air (?). Therefore I'm not convinced that these parts were properly taken care of at earlier services, since i have had the bike serviced every 6000 km (about 3500 miles). Anyway, this was probably what made the huge difference. Engine oil was also replaced. I had to go back to the workshop the next day, due to an overfilling of engine oil of maybe 1 litre (!). When the bike had only a few thousand miles on the odometer, I reached about 155 km/h (96 mph) indicated. Now I hardly got 150 km/h going slightly downhill.. So, after all it seems like the engine has lost some of it's maximum power after 43000 km, but I guess that's normal. |
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July 24th, 2017, 12:23 PM | #17 | |
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August 27th, 2017, 05:10 AM | #18 | |
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For a long time it was 0.41-0.42 lit./10 km. Since the service my measurements showed from just below 0.37 l./10 km to below 0.39 l./10 km. So, the engine both feels stronger and runs more economic now. |
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August 27th, 2017, 05:12 AM | #19 | |
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having little or no ethanol. |
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August 27th, 2017, 06:30 AM | #20 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
Run higher octane "Premium" only if you need to get away from gas with ethanol. |
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August 27th, 2017, 08:33 AM | #21 | |
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Up till recently, rumours said that the 98 octane was ethanol free. Most 95 octane here (Norway, Scandinavia) probably contains at least 5 or 7 % ethanol. To have as little ethanol as possible in the fuel, I choose 98 octane. I hope the F.I. system can correct for the actual amounts of ethanol that we presently have to deal with. I have read that it's not always the case. |
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August 27th, 2017, 08:37 AM | #22 | |
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"Do not use an E10 fuel, or any fuel with an ethanol volume content more than 5 % in this vehicle. It has not been tested and certified for use with such fuels. Damage to the engine and fuel system, or engine starting and/or performance problems mayresult from the use of improper fuel". 98 has been, or still is, ethanol free around here. That's not the case for the other possibility, 95 octane. So, I always used 98 octane when I could. |
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August 27th, 2017, 11:59 AM | #23 | |
Rev Limiter
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I believe the U.S. manuals say E10 is ok, but nothing more. In any case, the lowest octane that just barely keeps detonation away produces the most power and best economy. That's what they recommend in the manual. I will personally go up in octane if I need to get away from ethanol as well, but luckily in my area I can get ethanol-free "Regular". |
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June 29th, 2018, 06:44 AM | #24 | |
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June 29th, 2018, 03:35 PM | #25 |
2008 & 2010 250cc
Name: Keith
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I skimmed through the thread, it seems a service at some type of qualified service shop got the bike performing well again.
In the future, for other readers of this thread there is a few things you can do to hone in on valves. Check your engine compression. Valves that are tight may not seal properly resulting in lower compression readings. Once a compression reading has been confirmed in 1 cylinder, then put a teaspoon of engine oil in the spark plug hole. Then take a compression reading again. The compression should read higher as the piston rings are sealed tighter by the oil introduced in the cylinder. If your compression does not measure higher, it may be very likely do to valves that are not sealing. Setting the valves on these bikes is not really a quick easy thing to do. A fair amount of parts must come off and out of the way to access the valves. Valve cover must be removed. Engine timing set properly and then valve clearance measured. Shims are replaced with either thinner or thicker sizes to adjust clearances. I would expect that if you someone had paid to have valves checked and 10,00 KM, 20,000 KM, 30,000 KM...Etc it would add up to a considerable sum. It's fairly time consuming. |
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June 29th, 2018, 07:26 PM | #26 |
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June 30th, 2018, 10:19 AM | #27 |
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Just for reference and future searches, people are often confused about octane ratings, how they're determined and their effects on combustion, Higher-octane fuels does not burn slower, in fact many of 100+octane fuels have 5-10% faster combustion speeds, which is what generates the extra power. What is "slower" in higher-octane fuels is formation of radical alkyl groups during combustion, which are initiators of knock/detonation.
Here's good dyno comparison: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/fuel-...ng-comparison/ Engine made identical power using 87-100 octane fuels, even with ignition-advancement to take advantage of higher-octane. Only 114-leaded race-fuel made an improvement of... 2%. Anyway, octane ratings in Europe is based upon RON method. In U.S., octane = AKI = CLC = (RON+MON)/2. Fuel with 95-octane in Europe is about 89-octane at U.S. pumps, 98 in Europe is 91-92 U.S. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; June 30th, 2018 at 12:56 PM. |
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August 2nd, 2019, 12:17 AM | #28 |
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Thanks for all the useful discussions, and advice.
I have noticed that fresh gasoline is needed every spring, for good performance. The bike hasn't been used much lately, but now it has about 34 000 miles on the meter. It was serviced according to the schedules in the manual, as far as I know (if the workshops did what they should). Despite the fact that I believe that most issues discussed here should be in order, the bike is weaker than when it was new(er). It probably has about 5-10 mph lower top speed, and it would take longer to reach. In 6th gear, it seems somewhat reluctant to spin at higher rpms than 10 000. It's very smooth, without vibrations, and runs very fine. Just less power.. Maybe in a year or so, it's time for a larger service again. If a valve adjustment could help, I would be happy to pay for it. (It never had a valve adjustment in about 55000 km / 34000 miles. I have been told that the valves were within specs, 2 or 3 times.) |
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August 2nd, 2019, 12:41 AM | #29 |
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Did you ever replace the dragging rear-brake?
Mentioned dark spark-plugs, which is sign of too much fuel. Which lowers power compared to more optimal leaner mixture (less fuel). There are many faults that can cause too much fuel. Vacuum-leak between throttle and intake-valve can cause false-readings from MAP-sensor, tricking ECU into injecting too much fuel. Extra fuel also clogs catalytic-converter with soot, restricting exhaust-flow and slowing bike down. You should also do compression-test to determine internal wear on engine's rings and valves. Some autos have issues with burnt oil clogging rings, leading to poor ring sealing. Your dark plugs may also be due to burning oil. Clogged rings may be indicated with compression-test. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 2nd, 2019 at 11:30 AM. |
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August 12th, 2019, 09:19 AM | #30 | |
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The airfilter should be new, and the bike has fuel injection. It has been used mainly for commuting, and very few short trips (< 5 miles). It has 55 000 km. If most of it was for commuting, with each trip being 40 km, it means that it has probably been started less than 1500 times. Rings and cylinders may be worn. Since it never received a valve adjustment, it might improve by having that done. I don't know.. |
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August 12th, 2019, 09:23 AM | #31 | |
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The rear brake is dragging somewhat, but not enough to heat up the rear disc considerably after a trip. I have no problems touching it with my fingers afterwards, so I doubt that much power is going that way.. I remember having a ZX11 serviced, including adjusting the carburators as well as the valves. It had an improved throttle response afterwards. This bike has FI, and even though the workshop told that the valves were within specs, it might still have benefited from adjustments...? |
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August 12th, 2019, 10:00 AM | #32 |
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Do compression-test. That will give us objective numbers to analyze.
Does your bike have O2-sensor? Connect gauge and capture live-data to analyze to determine if it's working properly. Something like this with no obvious faults requires careful inspection following air-flow from beginning to end. Measuring each component and comparing its numbers with allowable ranges given in FSM. Measure fuel-pressure in rail. Measure static flow-rate of injectors. Measure no-pressure flow-rate of fuel-pump. The numbers will tell us exactly what problem is. Even without a factory-test number as target, we can still come up with tests to measure. Such as air-flow volume through intake-snorkel. Put it on flow-bench and measure CFM of air-flow. Will find obstructions such as this! I don't trust shops. Did they give you sheet with measured valve-clearances? |
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