Measuring valves

[Nemesis]

Stupid question but how exactly do you measure the valves?

Do I rotate the cams so the ex. & in. marks face each other then measure 1 & 2 then crank it quarter turn then measure 3 & 4? Or do I measure all the cams once I have the crank turned with the ex. & in. marks facing each other? Which order do I measure them in?

Man, I feel stupid asking this question but I'm at a lost. It's been years since I had to do this.

TIA

[kkim]

do you have a service manual?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by kkim

do you have a service manual?

Yes I do but the SM doesn't really explain it in details.

[ithaca00]

I haven't measured my 2008's yet but on the Classic bike you make sure that the cam lobes are pointing AWAY from the valves. Where exactly they point shouldn't really matter.

[Racer x]

To mesure the valve clearnce..it is best to remove the cams then check each can seperatly with the lobe pointed up.it is imposiblele to get the center valves with the cam covers in place

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Racer x

To mesure the valve clearnce..it is best to remove the cams then check each can seperatly with the lobe pointed up.it is imposiblele to get the center valves with the cam covers in place

That's a little

[Nemesis]

Thanks for your input guys.

Originally Posted by Racer x

To mesure the valve clearnce..it is best to remove the cams then check each can seperatly with the lobe pointed up.it is imposiblele to get the center valves with the cam covers in place

The only problem I have with your suggestion Racer X is that the cam covers ensures the cams are seated tight against the cans. I know this because I was foolish enough to take everything apart then realized I forgot to measure the valves first. So, I had to place everything back and that's when I noticed the cam covers holds down and seats the cams tightly against the cans.

BTW, I still don't understand how to measure the valves. Do I face the ex. & in. marks against each and measure every valve or do I set ex. & in. marks to each other then measure ex. valve 1 then crank the engine to so the lobes face away from the valves then measure valve 2? So confused.

Anyone?

[spicy mayo]

Are you trying to measure valve clearance?

You shouldn't have taken the cam caps off, if you have then make sure you put them back in there original locations and torque them back down to spec before getting out your feeler gauge.

You are going to have to rotate the crank twice, and each time you do you will measure the 4 valves of one cylinder. Slide a feeler gauge between the BACK OF THE CAM LOBE (aka the base circle) and the follower.

For example:

Turn the crank to TDC of cylinder 1. (You know this is ~TDC because all 4 valves will be shut). Now you can measure each clearance individually for all 4 valves for that cylinder. Now rotate the crank 360* and repeat for all 4 valves of cylinder #2.

I know the FSM says you can line up a marking labeled '2/T' in the alternator window as well to get compression TDC of cylinder 1, which is the left side cylinder.

On a side note, I noticed you race with WSMC. Are you coming out to Willow this weekend?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by spicy mayo

Are you trying to measure valve clearance?

You shouldn't have taken the cam caps off, if you have then make sure you put them back in there original locations and torque them back down to spec before getting out your feeler gauge.

You are going to have to rotate the crank twice, and each time you do you will measure the 4 valves of one cylinder. Slide a feeler gauge between the BACK OF THE CAM LOBE (aka the base circle) and the follower.

For example:

Turn the crank to TDC of cylinder 1. (You know this is ~TDC because all 4 valves will be shut). Now you can measure each clearance individually for all 4 valves for that cylinder. Now rotate the crank 360* and repeat for all 4 valves of cylinder #2.

I know the FSM says you can line up a marking labeled '2/T' in the alternator window as well to get compression TDC of cylinder 1, which is the left side cylinder.

On a side note, I noticed you race with WSMC. Are you coming out to Willow this weekend?

Okay, now that makes sense. Thx

I don't think I'll make it this weekend since the bike is torn down and I have yet to do the valve adjustment. LOL

But I'll be there for Feb. Hopefully, if I can get this damn valve adjustment out of the way.

[Racer x]

i

Originally Posted by spicy mayo

Are you trying to measure valve clearance?

You shouldn't have taken the cam caps off, if you have then make sure you put them back in there original locations and torque them back down to spec before getting out your feeler gauge.

You are going to have to rotate the crank twice, and each time you do you will measure the 4 valves of one cylinder. Slide a feeler gauge between the BACK OF THE CAM LOBE (aka the base circle) and the follower.

For example:

Turn the crank to TDC of cylinder 1. (You know this is ~TDC because all 4 valves will be shut). Now you can measure each clearance individually for all 4 valves for that cylinder. Now rotate the crank 360* and repeat for all 4 valves of cylinder #2.

I know the FSM says you can line up a marking labeled '2/T' in the alternator window as well to get compression TDC of cylinder 1, which is the left side cylinder.

On a side note, I noticed you race with WSMC. Are you coming out to Willow this weekend?

Have you ever done a valve check? There is no way you can get to the center valves wikth the cam covers in place. Yoou have to take the cams out to mesure the shims any way .

Just set the cams in place no covers no chain .don't turn the engine over. Just rest the cam in place and mesure the clearance betwen the cam and bucket .with out the tention of the springs I.it is easy to feel when the feeler gauge is to thick oyu can feel the cam lift up.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Racer x

i
Have you ever done a valve check? There is no way you can get to the center valves wikth the cam covers in place. Yoou have to take the cams out to mesure the shims any way .

Just set the cams in place no covers no chain .don't turn the engine over. Just rest the cam in place and mesure the clearance betwen the cam and bucket .with out the tention of the springs I.it is easy to feel when the feeler gauge is to thick oyu can feel the cam lift up.

Wait, so are you saying if I line up the marks (ex. & in.) facing each other then both pistons will be at TDC? If so, that would make things so much easier.

[Nemesis]

BTW, what is the 1T mark for?

[spicy mayo]

Originally Posted by Racer x

i
Have you ever done a valve check? There is no way you can get to the center valves wikth the cam covers in place. Yoou have to take the cams out to mesure the shims any way .

Just set the cams in place no covers no chain .don't turn the engine over. Just rest the cam in place and mesure the clearance betwen the cam and bucket .with out the tention of the springs I.it is easy to feel when the feeler gauge is to thick oyu can feel the cam lift up.

I have, however not on this bike. I have NEVER heard of checking clearance without the caps in place. You will not be reading the same clearance to check against the manual to find out if you are in spec this way....

Why would you remove the shims before you knew whether or not they needed to be changed?? You need to measure clearance in a comparable way to the manual to be able to decide how much more shim you need before you go tearing things down.

If i see the pic in the manual correctly maybe you are referring to something different by covers. It appears there is a piece that actually shields the lobes, but I'm talking about the caps that actually retain the cam journals, perhaps these are one and the same the way it is designed, but you should not be checking clearance without this torqued down. Even the manual says so.

[spicy mayo]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Wait, so are you saying if I line up the marks (ex. & in.) facing each other then both pistons will be at TDC? If so, that would make things so much easier.

Not happening, when both pistons are at TDC, they are on different strokes, so one will be on firing TDC while the other is at exhaust TDC. So even though the pistons are in the same location, the cams wont be. Thats just the nature of a parallel twin. There is a 360* offset between the cylinders.

Your going to have to spin the crank twice, once to get it to firing TDC of cyl 1, and again to get to firing TDC for cyl 2.

Look at the picture for how the valves are pointing in the FSM, when they are in that orientation and you see 2/T, you are there, check your clearance. Next, spin the crank another 360 degrees until you see the '2/T' marking come up again you will be on firing TDC of cylinder 2. Measure again and you should be good. Record the clearance somewhere by location so you know exactly what clearance you had where if you need to move around the shims later to get lash right.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by spicy mayo

I have, however not on this bike. I have NEVER heard of checking clearance without the caps in place. You will not be reading the same clearance to check against the manual to find out if you are in spec this way....

Why would you remove the shims before you knew whether or not they needed to be changed?? You need to measure clearance in a comparable way to the manual to be able to decide how much more shim you need before you go tearing things down.

If i see the pic in the manual correctly maybe you are referring to something different by covers. It appears there is a piece that actually shields the lobes, but I'm talking about the caps that actually retain the cam journals, perhaps these are one and the same the way it is designed, but you should not be checking clearance without this torqued down. Even the manual says so.

Like I said you can not get a feeler gauge to the center valves to measure anything.

You do have to measure the gap first before you measure the shim.

Lets get past the valve check. Once you find a valve that needs to be adjusted .Then you have to take everything apart to get the shim out. Are you going to put the whole top end together to check it again? That will take a very long time.

When you take the cam and lay it on top of the buckets. There is a gap between the cam and the bucket. When you slide a feeler gauge into that gap. You can "feel" the cam lift up if the feeler gauge is to thick.

You can see the oil film on the cam bearing change as the cam moves . You can hold the cam with the lobe up and get the feeler gauge into the gap between the bucket and heal of the cam. it is easy to do. And you do not have to crank the engine around.

I have been doing work with this engine for three years and I have been a mechanic for twenty nine years . I also run a service department for a motorcycle dealer. As well as having one of the worlds fastest 250 Ninjas just so you know I am not making this up .

I will do a sticky of this .

[CThunder-blue]

If you could do a short DIY with pix RacerX, that would be awesome.

[Racer x]

I have a head going out for bigger valves. I will put something together tonight.

[Nemesis]

Again, thx for your input guys but I'm still confused. First thing first, I need to check the valves and that's the problem I'm having. I understand I have to get the valve measurements once I turn the engine to the 2/T mark with the ex./in. marks facing each other. But the question is, which valve? All of them once I have it at 2/T or do I measure the two exhaust & inlet valves for one piston then crank the engine till I hit 1/T and measure the other four? That's the part I'm confused about. Please help.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Like I said you can not get a feeler gauge to the center valves to measure anything.

For some odd reason I can measure the center 4 valves with the top cam cover on...I have small hands. But I may not be getting an accurate reading.

Originally Posted by Racer x

When you take the cam and lay it on top of the buckets. There is a gap between the cam and the bucket. When you slide a feeler gauge into that gap. You can "feel" the cam lift up if the feeler gauge is to thick.

Now the question is, is this with the chain on the cams and bolted down or just the cams resting on top?

Originally Posted by Racer x

You can see the oil film on the cam bearing change as the cam moves . You can hold the cam with the lobe up and get the feeler gauge into the gap between the bucket and heal of the cam. it is easy to do. And you do not have to crank the engine around.

But that's just for one piston...what about the other piston? Doesn't that have to be @ TDC. Both pistons can't be @ TDC at the same crank rotation, right?

Originally Posted by Racer x

I have been doing work with this engine for three years and I have been a mechanic for twenty nine years . I also run a service department for a motorcycle dealer. As well as having one of the worlds fastest 250 Ninjas just so you know I am not making this up .

I will do a sticky of this .

Cool...thx for your input. Hopefully you'll get some good pics out and again appreciate everyone's input.

I'm sure I'm not the only one with these stupid questions...hopefully.

[Racer x]

There are no stupid questions. I will clear this up. The problem is I don't explain thinds well. Plus I am over fermiliar with this .Pictures will explain it all.

[Nemesis]

Cool. Looking forward to your post. Thx!

[randomwalk101]

VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are THREE diy on valve/shim check...I'm still CONFUSED!!! Yes I speak English

[littledog]

Originally Posted by Racer x

i
Have you ever done a valve check? There is no way you can get to the center valves wikth the cam covers in place. Yoou have to take the cams out to mesure the shims any way .

I have measured clearance on my '09 three times now.

It IS possible to measure clearances with the cam cover in place. The size of feeler gauge you use is very flexible, which allows measurement with the cam cover in place.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Just set the cams in place no covers no chain .don't turn the engine over. Just rest the cam in place and mesure the clearance betwen the cam and bucket .with out the tention of the springs I.it is easy to feel when the feeler gauge is to thick oyu can feel the cam lift up.

This is not what the service manual says to do.

How much does the clearance change due to torque on the cam cover bolts?

I am not willing to bet my engine that this effect is negligible.

[Racer x]

There is no torque on the cam it spins freely. The spec is relitivly wide.the shims come in .005? Incriments.I do most valve dajustment with the head off the bike.

Yes it is possible it get the inside ones but I find it easyer to pull it apart. It comes ot the same amount of time in the end. But I feel it is more accurate to do without the cam covers.

Why are you checking you vlaves so often? I have seen the engine go a long way and still be within specs

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Racer x

There is no torque on the cam it spins freely. The spec is relitivly wide.the shims come in .005? Incriments.

I do most valve adjustment with the head off the bike.

Yes it is possible it get the inside ones but I find it easyer to pull it apart. It comes ot the same amount of time in the end. But I feel it is more accurate to do without the cam covers.

Why are you checking you vlaves so often? I have seen the engine go a long way and still be within specs

DIY Video Pleazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I still don't understand all this wording talks....

[bob706]

+1 for a video

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by bob706

+1 for a video

+Infinity

I need to get my bike up and running. PPPLLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZZ.

[Nemesis]

Anyone else who's done a valve adjustment on the Ninja 250R have any input?

[Nemesis]

Alright guys, so I couldn't wait any longer and this is what I was told:

The manual you (& many others) are looking at has an error.

Below is the correct info:

Use 1T mark for the left/#1 piston TDC.
Use 2T mark for the right/#2 piston TDC.

If following two things are correct, it doesn't matter whether 1T/2T or how many revolution you have to turn the crank when switching from one piston to another:

For the piston that you are measuring:

1. Inlet and exhaust cam lobes must be pointing AWAY from each other so that you can feel the "loosest or the largest" spot between the cam shaft and the bucket.
2. Stick in a skinny rod (like straight section of coat hanger) in the spark plug hole and make sure the piston is at the very top - TDC.
3. Measure the clearance by inserting the feeler gauge should be inserted between the round part of the cam and the tappet.
4. Forget about the white paint mark.
5. Do the calculation and find which shim needs to be inserted. Make note for all 4 valves for that piston.
6. Turn over the crank and do exactly the same for the #2 piston (right side).
7. Install correct sized shims on all valves.
8. You need to install the cam cover if you want to remeasure the clearance again with the new shims.

This clears up EVERYTHING I've been struggling with!

[randomwalk101]

Video?

[Racer x]

I wish I could explain it better.
When You take the cam covers off and the chain off the cams . You can set the cams in place with out the covers . You put the pointed part of the cam pointing up. When you slide a feeler gauge under the cam you will feel the cam rise up if the gauge is to thick. You can feel .001 difference .

If you have the cams bolted down .You have to work under the covers.
When you push the feeler gauge in between the cam heel and the bucket you can compress the spring. The accuracy in is by feeling the drag on the feeler gauge .

I guess just try it . When you have it all apart after you measure your shims . Before you bolt the cams down just set the cam in place and slide a gauge under the cam till you feel the cam life out of the bearing .
I use a Matco FG-14 go-no go feeler gauge.

[Nemesis]

No worries. The instructions I got was from a Kawi engineer. Can't get better instructions than that.

[headshrink]

If I remember correctly, the last time I did my valves (first time), the cams would not seat completely without the covers. The Since the lobes are offset, there was always one side that would hold a side up. The weight of the cam alone wasn't enough to compress the spring. I'm not doubting your experience, but this is truly an intriguing thing.... it would make things so much easier.

[Racer x]

When I am the cylinder head on my race bike. I have the head off the engine and on a bench. I am measuring the gap between the heel ( round side ) of the cam and the shim bucket.

With out the chain the cams will sit with the lobes pointing upward. To measure the valves.Rotate the cam till the point is straight up.
When I slide the feeler gauge under the cam lobe . If the feeler gauge is to thick. I will feel the cam rise up. It is a very sensitive way to measure the gap.

If the engine is in the bike. It is an easy way to check the valves because I do not have to rotate the engine or take the cam covers on and off .

It works for me. I made a video to show what I mean . This is a head that is disassembled. I just put it together to make the video.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[headshrink]

Thanks, I'll check out the video. I believe I can visualize what you are saying... but will have to wait until I am in my engine to do the hands-on learning, and compare to my old way. Think I will take the initial measurement before cam covers are removed, so I can compare to the measurement with them off. Theoretically, this does sound like it should work.

The idea of valve adjustments being this easy (no on and off [repeat] of cam covers until right, no removal/realigning timing chain, no rotating of engine), is awesome! The funny thing is, other than the part about measuring with the covers off, I intuitively questioned why we ever needed to rotate to TDC, etc, instead of just pointing those suckers skyward. So this really does validate that I really am starting to understand how these things (engines) work.

EDIT: Just watched the video. It does seem to make it look crystal clear, and easy - THANKS!
I also see that I did misunderstand one part, and the chain does come off for this (got it now). So, as I understand it, every thing comes apart as before, it is just the measurements that are easier than previously thought.

EDIT x2: It just occured to me... when you put the timing chain back on, align cams, etc. we WOULD have to turn the engine to TDC. That may have been obvious, but I didn't think of it until just now.

[Racer x]

When putting the chain on.It is important to have the engine with T2 at the top. Then pull the chain around the exhaust cam first. Lining up the EX and IN marks like the book says . Get all the tension out of the chain.Then go around the intake cam .That way when you put the cam tensioner back in nothing changes. If there is slack in the chain between ex cam and the crank . Then the cam timing will change when the tensioner is installed.

[spooph]

X, I don't mean to show any disrespect here, you're in that engine a lot more than I, but I do it a bit different.

I measure the clearance from in between the cams, with the covers on and bolted down. I also disassemble my feeler gauge tool so the feelers are all apart and easy to finagle.



Nemesis, although I think you have it figured out by now, you're making it way too complicated. To measure valve clearance, turn the cam lobe 180 degrees from the bucket and measure. If everything is bolted down, it doesn't matter how many times you spin the engine, as long as the cam lobe is as far away from the bucket as it can get.

When you remove the cams, that's when the crank needs to be at 2T (cylinder 2 at TDC), and the EX and IN lines on the cams will line up with the top of head, then install is easy, as per the manual. lol, or you can put the crank at 1T (cylinder 1 at TDC), and install the cams "upside down", with the EX and IN writing upside down, level with the top of the head, but why make it more difficult?

I know you've read a bunch of write-ups, maybe this will help, it was one of my firsts, so it's not uber thorough. You too Headshrink:
http://www.newninja.com/forums/f104/...t-of-4489.html

If I'm beating a dead horse, just flip me the bird. Hope this helps.

[Racer x]

That is good for the quick check .but the valves in the center are a lot harder to get the feeler gauge. Also when the cam covers are in place. It is easy to push a thick feeler gauge between the cam and bucket depressing the spring and giving a false reading.

But like I said quick check .once you have to pull the covers to accualy adjust the valves then it becomes a pain to reassemble the whole thing over and over.

[Nemesis]

Thanks for your posts guys. Also, keep in mind the snapshot of the manual I posted #28 to ensure you're doing this right. The manual that's floating around (EBAY and what not) are incorrect. They should read as the pic I attached.

With that said, I tried to tackle the job again this weekend and FAIL miserably. I managed to break the cam flange. See attached pic. Don't be an idiot like me and pull the cams off by lifting from one end.
The cams were lodged in so tight I couldn't pull it out so I pulled from one end and that's when I noticed the bent flange. I was quite surprised how easily they bent. This is going to cost me a hefty amount of money to replace. Ronayers shows in an excess of $200+ for one cam.

I can't view the pics & vid posted so I'll check it out @ home.

Originally Posted by spooph

Nemesis, although I think you have it figured out by now, you're making it way too complicated. To measure valve clearance, turn the cam lobe 180 degrees from the bucket and measure. If everything is bolted down, it doesn't matter how many times you spin the engine, as long as the cam lobe is as far away from the bucket as it can get.

See, this makes perfect sense but I'm at a position where my chains have skipped a tooth and the EX & IN marks no longer line up horizontally. I'm in the process of getting this worked out with help from Kawi.

Originally Posted by spooph

When you remove the cams, that's when the crank needs to be at 2T (cylinder 2 at TDC), and the EX and IN lines on the cams will line up with the top of head

Not the case with mine when I first attempted this. The marks NEVER lined up to begin with.

Originally Posted by spooph

...then install is easy, as per the manual. lol, or you can put the crank at 1T (cylinder 1 at TDC), and install the cams "upside down", with the EX and IN writing upside down, level with the top of the head, but why make it more difficult?

I know you've read a bunch of write-ups, maybe this will help, it was one of my firsts, so it's not uber thorough. You too Headshrink:
http://www.newninja.com/forums/f104/...t-of-4489.html

If I'm beating a dead horse, just flip me the bird. Hope this helps.

Your post along with everyone's has been very helpful. Thanks again.

Honestly, I can’t believe I'm having such a hard time with this. I mean, I have never, NEVER, come across anything so difficult. And I've done valve adjustments on both my cars & motorcycles (pre-'08 EX250 and numerous cars) but...I just don't understand why I'm not getting this. I've replaced timing belt, valve adjustment, water pump, alternator/PS/crankshaft/etc. on my car and they were EASY. I just don't get it...I've never gotten to this position in all my years of working on motorcycles/cars.

Live and learn...but an expensive one at that.

My race bike is still in pieces and I have tons of stuff to replace/fix. Looks like I may miss out on another race.

I'm so pissed right now I can't think straight.

[randomwalk101]

Yikes...it that flange metal or rubber/plastic?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Yikes...it that flange metal or rubber/plastic?

It's metal but freakin' soft as well IMHO. But then again anything that thin placed in a groove/slot can bend/break given the angle I was pulling from.

Cams were, again, lodged in so bad I couldn't yank it out. It was my mistake for being impatient.

They say stupid hurts but in my case stupid is just plain stupid.