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Old September 2nd, 2022, 05:59 AM   #1
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Gas vehicles in California

I have heard on the news that California has banned the sale of gas vehicles starting in 2035. Does that include motorcycles as well?
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Old September 2nd, 2022, 12:13 PM   #2
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Probably.
Isn't that "new vehicles"? or "all vehiciles"?
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Old September 2nd, 2022, 01:05 PM   #3
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^^^^^ I’m not sure which is why I was asking. Hopefully someone like living in California will know. It’s only a matter of time before other states will follow suite so I was just curious.
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Old September 2nd, 2022, 02:21 PM   #4
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As far as I've heard, it's new vehicles only (though I haven't looked into it).
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Old September 2nd, 2022, 05:42 PM   #5
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As of right now all I know is that it's a ban on new cars, trucks, and suvs.

Motorcycle wise, I think they'll be going after dirt bikes first :/
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Old September 3rd, 2022, 08:57 AM   #6
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The initial exec order issued in 2020 and the more recent CARB rule tied to 2035 are both aimed at cars/light-trucks/suvs. No mention of other vehicles, including motorcycles, large trucks, or anything else. We can certainly guess a likely outcome whether they will all be affected at some point - but it's not proposed or committed right now.
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Old September 3rd, 2022, 03:46 PM   #7
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Let’s hope electrical grid and electrical production are vastly improved by 2035.
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Old September 3rd, 2022, 05:56 PM   #8
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Hope so! Even without tonne of EVs, we get regular brown-outs here in AZ in summer during peak use of ACs! EV pretty much doubles or more consumption per household!
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Old September 3rd, 2022, 08:31 PM   #9
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"Time of use" schedules will help encourage people to charge their cars overnight, instead of during peak times. Even on our little Spark, we can set when it charges and we had it set to charge midnight until 6am, something like that. Electric company has since changed the rules, so now peak time is 4-9pm instead, so we have a system where they can tell our charger not to charge if they need to juice elsewhere and we plug in whenever.
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Old September 4th, 2022, 06:44 AM   #10
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For those in the know...... would I be correct in assuming the ban on new gas vehicles also pertains to “small” diesel vehicles as well?

Thanks,
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Old September 5th, 2022, 05:06 AM   #11
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I doubt it’s coincidence that Kawasaki intends to be all electric by 2035 for Europe, Australia, and North America. Of course, Kawasaki announced this almost a year earlier. I assume this is street only.
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Old September 5th, 2022, 01:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Snake View Post
For those in the know...... would I be correct in assuming the ban on new gas vehicles also pertains to “small” diesel vehicles as well?

Thanks,
Correct. It is mandating Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEVs). Whether it's burning gasoline or diesel - neither are permitted. There are some exceptions for PHEV's making up a smaller percentage of the fleet (20% by manufacturer), but they must have at least 50 miles of battery-only range. Some links:

https://electrek.co/2022/08/25/ca-fi...hy-not-sooner/

Link to initial executive order: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fac...-order-n-79-20
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Old July 3rd, 2023, 01:02 AM   #13
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That Whole ban thing cannot possably stand ! it would Kill the california echonemy entirely , no shipping will be done, new car sales will die andthe people would not have it !, Newsom may well have got it passes but something that is so distructive to the state cannot be done..... it will die in court I have no doubt about that !
If by some strange case it does go into effect you will see the biggest exodus
of the state in human history...including me .... there is no way the people will stand for that that live in the country.... you try driving a tesla daily out here
and you will be walking...there is No infrastructure for electric vehicles
and the few places that do have them charge about 200% more than gasoline would cost..... it is a ludicrous idea , great for the city but not the country side
it's like they forgot that not everyone lives in the concrete jungle !
....even if the infrastructure was here and established already I would not buy an electric car.... simply because it is 3 times more expensive to buy and 6 months down the road you'll have to replace the batteries that will cost half the amount of buying the car in the first place.... a yearly bill of $17.000 to $20,000 dollars just to have a car defeats the purpose of having a car ! I'ed ride a horse ! it's silly !
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Old July 3rd, 2023, 12:48 PM   #14
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Well, 350000 Californians have been fleeing per year. Draconian laws and procedures adding to costs-of-living for everyone. Only lucky top 1% making fortune on tech can afford to live there.

Comparison can be drawn between vehicle licensing and smog-tests. HUGE hoops to jump through for CA shops and car owners. AZ uses exact same smog standards and no CARB hassles. As long as your tail-pipe emissions meets standards, your car passes with any amount of upgrades you want.

In CA, I had entire bone-stock OEM engine, intake, exhaust and ECU I would swap into my Porsche every 2-years because of CARB. Even though it passes tail-pipe sniffer just fine with upgraded engine, aftermarket ECU, custom exhaust and aftermarket catalytic, CARB says all those items must remain factory OEM.... WTF?!@#%€

Endless additional layers of bureaucracy adds costs and inconvenience for everyone. In AZ, I got smog-test done for $15 and registered car for 5-yrs for $75. In CA, it would be over $1000 for all that! And CA's roads are way, way crappier than AZ!!! All that extra money being raked in is going somewhere... most likely politician's pockets!!

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Old July 3rd, 2023, 12:57 PM   #15
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Toyota will probably save the day with hydrogen fuel-cell cars...

Due to inefficiencies with converting power into storage and extracting it back out, Teslas in S.F. are getting cost-per-mile equivalent to petrol car getting 30-mpg. Due to higher cost of electricity in S.F. area. That's all from home-charging too. If you charge at public stations; your costs will increase and mpg-equivalence will go down!

Hybrids have twice better/lower costs-per-mile than electric. That's because they don't waste power putting into into battery and extracting it out; losing a little each time. Prius gets 55-60mpg and only costs 1/2 as much per mile as Tesla because they use that power right away rather than storing it.

Fuel-cell electric will be even better. Driving existing hybrid powertrain; they'll get more power out of fuel, won't waste by storing and extracting it out of batteries and can get lower cost-per-mile than current hybrids! Probably 100-mpg in cost-per-mile metrics.

Or course, all of this depends upon actual cost of electricity. On 2-july-23 we have following rates:

S.F. Bay Area = U$D 0.33 per kWhr
Mesa, AZ = U$D 0.13 per kWhr
Toronto, CAD = U$D 0.056 per kWhr

Operating EV makes much more sense where power is cheaper. Tesla in S.F. would cost 500% more per mile than in Toronto!!!

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Old July 3rd, 2023, 03:35 PM   #16
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are Hybrids (Prius I asume?) gas engines powering an alternator and no drive train and the car is driven on electric motors ? that would be worth getting at 55~60 mpg !!!! god help you if the alternator goes out though ! they would want a fortune !
you can make a gas engine very efficient if you keep it at the same speed all the time ... i bet that is the idea !
..... but the way I understand it even the Hybrids will be outlawed here !
.... and that would really be shooting themselves in the foot if they did that !
......
.... I see Prius cars all the time on the freeway .... and they keep up with the 80mph traffic here speed limit is 70mph but no one does that so it keeps the CHP in plenty of money ! they concentrate on the guys that cruse at 90mph around here LOL
....
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Old July 3rd, 2023, 04:12 PM   #17
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I used to borrow my dad's Prius for long drives to visit my brother in Portland or in-laws in Phoenix. One time, I actually got 65mpg!! Tailwind and lots of drafting big trucks! Better than my pre-gen!

If inverter goes out in Prius, you can still run on battery-only for about 45-miles.

Costs have come down lots on replacement parts:

- type-3 battery = $2000
- inverter = $2500

Most Prii will go +375K miles before needing any major repairs like this.
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Old July 3rd, 2023, 06:50 PM   #18
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so did I discribe the drive train correctly or not ?
I know nothing about them but it would seem to me the smart way to go if you were to design a hybrid car.... leave the engine running at a constant rate!
.....
if so then doing the HHO trick on a Prius would be the smart way to go ! because you get around the throttle control problems of HHO
it's easy to make an engine run on HHO but it's throttling a gas that is the hard part.... super simple if the engine is kept at one throttle setting
just a ball valve !
.... I was under the impression ages ago that most hybrids are just regular cars with electric motor assist..... which seems like a waste to me... but a engine powered generator driving electric motors on the wheels that sounds like something I would be interested in !
..... what year was your Dads Prius ? I don't buy new cars I buy used ones !
LOL
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Old July 8th, 2023, 12:28 AM   #19
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..... but the way I understand it even the Hybrids will be outlawed here !
You may be understanding incorrectly. As the rules are currently written, PHEV's are expected to be a portion of a manufacturer's lineup for quite awhile. PHEV's are hybrids - with gas engines & electric drivetrains, with enough battery capacity to run for at least 50 miles. Who knows how the regs will get adjusted - but this would sunset hybrids with tiny batteries (the standard toyota/honda/hyundai type setup with 1 - 3 miles of battery power), but encourage the same models with a bit larger batteries (like the Prius Prime).

In terms of how hybrids work - there are a bunch of different options. This wikipedia article does a reasonable job of laying them out.

In most hybrids, there is a gas engine and at least one electric motor. In parallel hybrids, they are arranged with a transmission setup that can take either mode of power in varying degrees, and output it to the wheels. The ECU manages how much throttle the gas engine receives as well as how much is being asked of the electric motor, to make the final output feel "normal". The gas pedal is not really connected to a throttle - it's just an input device that is providing a reading to the ECU. For what it's worth, that's the situation on just about any car nowadays - hybrids or not. Toyota's hybrid system is a parallel hybrid. The concept for the prius was a relatively weak electric motor and relatively weak gas motor - tie them together so they both can provide adequate power when at full power, and the car's acceleration is adequate. This was the case from the very earliest Prius right up until the current generation. But very recently, Toyota has iterated on this so the gas engine isn't quite so weak anymore, and the electric motor is significantly stronger, yet fuel economy went up. The new prius is a 6ish second to 60 car, compared to ~10 seconds prior. It's not a sports car - but it's more than fast enough to keep up with street traffic.

Honda's hybrid system (the version since 2014 in the Accord/CR-V/Insight, ignoring their earlier versions at the moment), is instead mostly a serial hybrid. The car's propulsion is entirely up to an electric motor. The car's gas motor is used to spin at whatever speed is necessary to provide electrical energy to the motor. So the electric motor has always been sized to provide decent performance - and the gas motor was sized to provide enough energy to run the electric motor close to its peak. The advantage to this setup is that the car behaves more like a electric car; the throttle pedal very directly controls the electric motor, so it's very responsive. There is a party trick with the Honda setup, in that once the car is at highway speeds and under low load, there is an electronic clutch setup that engages the gas motor directly with the drive wheels - so at that point the honda would be considered a parallel hybrid. In that mode, the car can be recharging its battery as well. This gives the car slightly better highway fuel economy than it would have had otherwise, as there is no conversion necessary from gas engine to electrical power to electric motor to wheels.

Chevy Volt had an interesting system as well to combine the power sources in different ways to provide various benefits, but in practice it wasn't integrated or sized well - so if someone used the car just as a gas car and never plugged it in, the effective mpg was typically under 30, which any decently designed passenger car with average power can achieve even without any complicated hybrid drivetrain.

The BMW i3 was an early version of a serial hybrid that had a pretty terrible user experience due to its design limitations. Reasonably spritely electric motor, but not that big of a battery. Very low powered "range extender" 2-cylinder gas motor. Car performed quite well under battery power, but once its range was out - using the gas motor to provide electrical power gave way too little performance, making it essentially unusable on fast highway commutes, hills, etc.
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Old July 8th, 2023, 01:30 AM   #20
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Thank you for that ! seems it's a bit more complicated than I gave it credit !
seems like every manufacturer has their own version of "what is best" and all of them fall short or what is needed. LOL
....
the smart way to do it in my mind would be like the diesel locomotives sense the 1950's a big diesel motor hooked to a monster DC generator that directly powers DC electric motors that turn the wheels.... many advantages to this way of doing things include a constant RPM for the Diesel motor no throttling up or down.... a constant speed allows the fuel system to be fine tuned for the best fuel mileage........ and no batteries are needed they use the electric energy provided by the huge generator directly.... if a little is needed a little is taken... if alot is needed alot is taken....
it's a great setup and has been in use for decades and the fuel mileage is fantastic...
I have no idea what they would call that kind of system or it's possible uses for Automotive use but if it works for trains it should work for Cars !
....
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Old July 11th, 2023, 01:14 PM   #21
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The reason they don't do that is it isn't nearly as efficient for this use case. When you have a power requirement that has to move hundreds/thousands of tons a very long way at a pretty constant speed (like a freight train) - it makes a ton of sense to have a huge motor that runs efficiently at a constant speed. Especially when the weight really doesn't matter compared to the load, so the diesel engine can be huge, the electric motor can be huge, and any battery systems needed can be huge. When you instead have a power requirement that varies from very little (idling/slow movement in traffic) to very high (fast acceleration to highway speed, constant higher speeds), it doesn't make sense to size the engine and run the engine at any constant speed. It needs to be efficient over its entire duty cycle. And to do that in a car, you have a motor that can run at low revs low power, high revs high power, etc. In a hybrid car, that reality doesn't change. You need the gas engine to be powerful enough to provide enough electricity to move the car quickly. And you need it to be efficient enough to run it at less power, when less electricity is needed. Only scaling it to run at full power at all times or off turns out to be much less efficient.
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Old July 11th, 2023, 03:31 PM   #22
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I Understand that logic Alex ! the problem is if you built a decent generator powered by a 2 cyl or 4 cyl engine and ran that generator at peek putput all the time around 3500 RPM if memory serves me correctly ....
there would be no need to throttle up or down the gasoline engine ....just use the electric motor for driving, their more effecient at that anyway.... it's the charging that is the problem...so just make it where the car charges itself....
if it's driving down the road it's charging ! .... now when you get home it may have to set for 10 minutes to top off the charge depending on how they screw up the deal....
....
I almost built a 24 volt VW electric car back in the 1980's I saw a artical where a guy found a 24v forklift motor and put it in a VW beetle added the bac seat full of 12vdc batteries and he had a electric car that could go 20 miles on a single charge..... he then put a small B&S generator in the back where the electric motor was at , he made a rack on top of it.... and re wired the generator to charge the 24volt system .... he would drive to work fire up the generator and let the batteries charge for a few hours and then wander back out and turn it off.... so it was fully charged for his trip home
.....
as horribly inefficient as his setup was it was revolutionary back in the day
but not a single car company has even offered a gas powered generator as an accessory with the electric car ! WHY not ???? I would use it up here if I had an electric car because I would not pay the charging station the $50.00 they want just to charge your car ! ...
a small generator can be made to be quite efficient on fuel but that has only been a modern innovation like the honda generators or the Ohan models.
the old generators would eat you out of house and home.... 5 gallons of gas for running it 8 hrs is not my idea of efficient. that is what my current HF generator does ! .....your better off feeding a car motor than the generator
but with a good generator that can be quite a savings 4 hrs run time for a gallon of gas (+-) ain't bad at all !!!
.....
the government will have to step in and make mandatory that the charging stations can only charge so much before electric cars are viable ...at least up here .... these people are greedy .... they charge you a sir charge plus the amount of electricity you use that they charge you double for....
so don't leave your wallet home when travelling with an electric car through northern California !
I would guess that an electric car would Double or maybe tripple the cost of gasoline..... and at $5.00 + a gallon of gas at the moment that is down right scary ! !!!!! .....

the whole primus is just trying to find another way to seperate you from your money ! environmental concerns brought up mainly to get the people to think another way so we can charge you more !
oh well.... such is the world we live in today ! ya can't win for the loosin' !
LOL
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Old July 14th, 2023, 03:03 PM   #23
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Your enthusiasm is contagious. But you're way off on much of this. All of what you are suggesting has been thought of, tried, and discarded because it is not effective. The BMW i3 was the closest to your ideas for a production version of a hybrid electric with only a small gas generator to provide electricity for the electric motor when the battery ran out, and it was a terrible, awful car - as well as being incredibly expensive for how bad a car it was. Short range, because the battery was pretty small, and a small 2-cylinder motorcycle engine to regen the battery and/or power the car as needed. Even though it was such a light car due to a ton of carbon fiber being used - performance once the battery was low was terrible. And the combined MPG if actually using the regen motor instead of plugging in close to 100% of the time turned out to be nowhere near good enough to deal with the poor usability.

Any car with the bare minimum of required safety technology and able to carry people and luggage (even small people, and not much luggage), is going to be 3000 pounds or more right now. Any car that people will purchase needs to be able to accelerate from 0-60 in 10 seconds or less. That means that whatever drivetrain you want to use, it needs to have somewhere between 100-150 hp. And that same car - needs to be able to travel at highway speeds at great efficiency, which at 70 mph requires ~20 hp for an average sized / average aero car. So the drivetrain needs to be efficient making 1/5 to 1/10 of its peak power. Gasoline engines with effective transmissions have been the best at that for a century, with continuous improvement over that time period. But nothing lasts forever, whether that's cheap gas, or tolerance for emissions, or any other of the factors that are driving these shifts we are seeing.
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Old July 14th, 2023, 07:49 PM   #24
Bob KellyIII
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Yes I agree but the manifacturer of that BMW missed the mark by a long shot !
I'm not denieing that a car that would do what I say wouldn't be expensive.... already cars cost as much as airplanes do ! but it can be done..... they just haven't done it right yet !
....
lets say we take a Tesla a good established model that works the best.... hook a small trailer to it with a decent size generator on it.... and just fire up the generator when the batteries are 1/4 down..... it's not rocket science but people are waiting for the manifacturers to come up with the Holey grail but they always look at the bottom line
and are not looking for the perfect car they want the best selling car.... there is a big difference.
....
the problem with the senerio that I just made with the Tesla towing the generator is the generator is going to cost you more in gasoline than a normal car would.... you know that already..... the problem isn't the electric car, the problem is charging it.
the idea of charging it at home after work is a great one..... but what about trips ?
having to find a charging station and then waiting an hour or 2 just to charge is silly
so tow your generator with you.....
the generator can be made to sip gas not guzzle it but they haven't been forced to change yet... so they haven't
.....
Around 50mpg is the max we will ever see until other technology takes hold and they will fight it to the grave.... the oil companies have bought up all pattents that get over 200mpg in the last 60 years because they want to sell gas ! if people use less that is bad for them.... Yes the added weight of all the safety B.S. does cause problems
you can't expect to get 100MPG out of a 2000lb car without doing something extraordinary! and doing something extraordinary is very expensive so they don't
could they,?.... without a doubt ! but it has to make financial sense before they will....
.....
our gasoline prices are over the $5.00 mark here again.... and there really isn't a good reason for it except for corporate greed.
not that the average consumer can do anything about it.... if you want to use the car you have to feed it........ buy an electric car instead and then pay through the nose from that day forward...... 5 years down the road if your car survives the hazards of driving ... then you need to buy new batteries for more money than you would have spent on gasoline..... it just doesn't make sense to me, my pockets are not that deep !
......
Bob....
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Old July 15th, 2023, 11:05 AM   #25
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Our electric Spark charges up to 80% in 20 minutes at fast chargers. If we're going to be someplace for a while, we will plug in to the normal Level 2 chargers, which will charge to full in 6 hours or so.

You also don't need to charge to full every time you charge. We've done trips where we charge often, for short periods while we do something. There are chargers here at the Whole Foods, at the DMV, at the mall.... things like that.
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Old July 16th, 2023, 07:42 AM   #26
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During the time of Gov. Ralph 'Killer' Northam in Virginia, the legislature linked Virginia's car laws to match California.

Northam is long gone. Gov. Youngkin and the new more normal legislature have moved VA away from the destruction program.

The world communist movement is attempting to do away with private transportation.

California is doing their best to destroy themselves. People are getting out. Simple solution for a record number of people.
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Old July 21st, 2023, 12:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
....
lets say we take a Tesla a good established model that works the best.... hook a small trailer to it with a decent size generator on it.... and just fire up the generator when the batteries are 1/4 down..... it's not rocket science but people are waiting for the manifacturers to come up with the Holey grail but they always look at the bottom line
and are not looking for the perfect car they want the best selling car.... there is a big difference.
....
the problem with the senerio that I just made with the Tesla towing the generator is the generator is going to cost you more in gasoline than a normal car would.... you know that already..... the problem isn't the electric car, the problem is charging it.
the idea of charging it at home after work is a great one..... but what about trips ?
having to find a charging station and then waiting an hour or 2 just to charge is silly
so tow your generator with you.....
the generator can be made to sip gas not guzzle it but they haven't been forced to change yet... so they haven't
......
You're missing a fundamental sizing problem. It may not be rocket science, but the fact is that it *is* actually science that defines both the problems and the solutions. Is the generator supposed to be able to create enough electricity for the car to function? Or is it to create electricity while off the grid, and you have a couple hours to wait for it to do so? If it's to keep the car functional, it needs to provide enough horsepower to then create enough electric energy for the motor to work as designed. So the generator needs to be sized at whatever hp you want the car to behave at. So that's 100-150 hp. Guess what - a 100-150 hp generator sounds just about the size of a small 4-cylinder car engine, that is already being used in hybrids. Towing an extra car engine behind a fully electric car adds hundreds of pounds, which if not used often, is a tremendous waste (and a huge performance penalty). If instead the plan is to have a smaller 10 - 20 hp engine to just be able to trickle charge the batteries at a stop when you have a few hours, it runs into a different problem. You'd be sitting there waiting for hours for the battery to recharge, as the generator is only putting the equivalent of 10-20 hp in.

It doesn't work. Penciling out the power requirements and working through the scenarios makes it abundantly clear. The tradeoff that makes hybrids functional is that they don't have much battery weight, so it's a gas drivetrain + an electric motor, but not enough batteries to solely rely on battery range. Adding a gas drivetrain onto a fully electric car that is also carrying around thousands of pounds of battery doesn't solve any problem - it just causes new ones.
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Old August 23rd, 2023, 12:44 AM   #28
Bob KellyIII
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I was actually thinking a generator on a trailer to be pulled by a Tesla on a trip
so when you stop for dinner you could plug in the Tesla to the generator to charge.... and yes I was thinking a smaller generator of the size to charge the car to full in 8 hours or so .... ( so I guess it wouldn't be all that SMALL that would take a bunch of watts ! )
... but not to power the car while driving.... just to charge it when your parked
..... if it was so small that it took you 12 hrs to charge the car to full for the next leg of your journey you could spend the night in a motel or camp.
but the problem right now is a generator of the size big enough to do the job in 12 hrs would eat more gasoline in that 12 hrs than if you'ed have driven there in a normal gasoline powered car..... so you gain nothing.
you just switch buying the gasoline for one car for buying charging station time for another car..... essentially theirs no free lunch..... but there are cheaper alternatives. like a generator that gets real good fuel economy for the Tesla
( i don't know of any right off the bat but I am sure you could improve one that is stock ! )

...
i dunno, time to buy good walking shoes and get the heck out of california I guess !
.....
Bob...
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Old August 25th, 2023, 12:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
I was actually thinking a generator on a trailer to be pulled by a Tesla on a trip
so when you stop for dinner you could plug in the Tesla to the generator to charge.... and yes I was thinking a smaller generator of the size to charge the car to full in 8 hours or so .... ( so I guess it wouldn't be all that SMALL that would take a bunch of watts ! )
Yeah, people have figured that out from side of road emergencies!









So they figured they’d just carry generator along.







Dragging generator around reduces efficiency greatly due to extra weight and aero-drag. Also converting to hybrid with running generator to charge battery while driving is not efficient either due to dragging around huge heavy battery. Better to get rid of battery and pump generator power directly to motors. Battery is major problem with EV, you lose 10% of power for round-trip. Don't get all power back that goes into battery. And miles-per-dollar spent in variable-costs will not complete with hybrids or even regular petrol engine depending upon your area's cost of electricity... more on this later...
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Old August 25th, 2023, 12:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
i dunno, time to buy good walking shoes and get the heck out of california I guess !
.....
Bob...
Come on out to AZ where everything's cheaper. I just registered my new bike for 5-yrs for only $105!! And you can buy my Model X! Biggest POS I've ever had! I’ve only had it for 4-yrs and have had extreme amounts of repairs needed for 45K-miles:
  • Replace AC system
  • Replace right-front window mechanism 2x
  • Replace gull-wing door hydraulics
  • Replace left-rear suspension, bushings or something way out of alignment and wore out tyre in less than 10K-miles


In contrast, I've had my Corolla Wagon for 15-yrs now. It's got 198K-miles (80K-miles of that is me) and ALL I've had to do with it was put in gas, change oil, coolant, brake-fluid every once in while and that's IT!!! And I've been using it to tow my bike to track even though everyone says NOT to tow with it! HAH!!!

Speaking of using vehicles for non-intended purposes...

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