How consistent are your entry speeds?

[Motofool]

Copied from
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ri...ips-code-break

"Proper braking all begins with the rider’s own sense of speed, and with or without brakes (and gears), speed decisions are based on an intimate, intuitive ability to process bike feel. Physical sensations and visual feedback provide the raw information to make accurate speed adjustments.
.......
Corner-entry speeds for a pro racer are typically very consistent, often varying by less than 1 to 2 mph from lap to lap. Average riders may vary 5 mph or more. Humans have this facility innately, but it does improve with practice." - Keith Code

[csmith12]

Hmmm....

"feel" is petty vague. I kinda expected more from a K. Code article. Maybe I am wrong. :\

[dcj13]

Naah, that's consistent with the Keith Code I've read.

[adouglas]

How consistent are my entry speeds?

I have no freakin' clue. That's part of my issue.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

How consistent are my entry speeds?

I have no freakin' clue. That's part of my issue.

Yea, that is what was part of my problem with the article. While I am a fan of the no brakes drill to learn how to set an entry speed. Going by "feel" doesn't seem like Mr. Code's style when everything else is the "science of riding."

How about some tangibles or tech/science?

The sound of the engine is consistent from lap to lap in the same corner
The lean angle needed is consistent from lap to tap
The throttle control is consistent from lap to lap
The feedback from the bike is consistent from lap to lap

ect... ect...

[Sirref]

the visual cues are consistent from lap to lap

^ this and where my knee touches as well as how long my knee skims the ground for is how I know I'm being consistent lap to lap

I have some tracks where I am more consistent than others, at my most consistent track (ncbike) my corner entry varies very slightly. The last endurance race I did there I rode a tenth of a second faster every lap for the duration of the race and I could tell I was edging the bike closer and closer to it's limit without ever hitting the limit. It was the most consistent I've ever been on a bike and I feel my variance was about 2mph for any given corner without knowing for sure

the cues are endless too

the throttle position lap to lap, not all corners require rolling off more than part way
where I'm getting my side to side transitions in lap to lap
how many body and bike parts I'm dragging lap to lap (I've dragged my peg, exhaust, foot, side of boot, knee, the leathers in between my knee and side of boot, and my elbow in T11 at ncbike without crashing...can't do that anywhere else as the bike leaning that much is largely a result of the track design and trying to coax out as much speed as possible out of a hairpin onto the straight, I cannot recommend it outside of a race and even doing that there I'm still off pace by 2s)
and of course the obvious ones, braking points and turn in points are the same lap to lap

[csmith12]

My contours have GPS. I am lucky enough that I can download the vid + gps telemetry data and compare lap to lap.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

My contours have GPS. I am lucky enough that I can download the vid + gps telemetry data and compare lap to lap.

is this difficult to use?

I'm trying to figure out what kind of camera to get for next season as my drift ghost was damaged beyond repair by the pavement and this seems like a useful feature

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

is this difficult to use?

No, with dashware or racerender, it's pretty much automatic. GPS data + video in the same file, makes it pretty easy.

[nickjpass]

I don't even know how fast I'm going lol

if I blow my line or I tense up I'm doing something wrong lol

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmm....

"feel" is petty vague. I kinda expected more from a K. Code article. Maybe I am wrong. :\

Immediately after the mention of bike "feel" Keith says "Physical sensations and visual feedback provide the raw information to make accurate speed adjustments."

Basically, the visual information you take in and the physical sensations of the bike combine to give the rider their own sense of speed, their own "feel" or perception of their speed.

I can describe this better as the way your interpretation of speed makes you feel. While at Laguna recently I was challenging myself to use 4th gear no brakes even when i was chasing a fast student. I tend to use small squeezes of "safety brakes" when I get nervous about my entry speed in corners and therefore lose precious time. So in order to improve on that aspect of my riding I used no-brakes (which we always use when leading our students) but I pushed myself to use it at higher speeds as well. What I noticed was a direct sensation of fear that started in my gut and moved up through my body to my hands that really really really wanted to use the brakes. By becoming more aware of what my vision was doing at the is time, (not looking to the apex soon enough, narrowing down, hunting around for RP's) I was able to make better visual changes so that my body no longer FELT that fear response at a higher pace.

All riders have an innate feel for the bike, their own speed and location on the track but by fine tuning the skills that create that FEEL (visual cues, physical sensations of the bike) your perception changes and your sense of speed changes along with it.

Keith explains further in the article the physical sensations that lead to good "feel" when he says..."good technique demands continual comparisons of multiple factors including: bike pitch in response to braking force, lever pressure changes, rate of deceleration, lean angle if you are trailing the brakes, location on the road (or track), estimated line based on current rate of deceleration, and more. Maintaining a firm grasp on the objective—optimum entry speed—becomes an art under these conditions."


Misti

[SLOWn60]

I don't believe Misti feels fear!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

I don't believe Misti feels fear!

Ha! I wish

I feel fear less when my visual skills are good

Let's break it down. What causes a rider to feel fear? Why?

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Misti

What causes a rider to feel fear? Why?

The feeling you're going to screw up and crash. Because you don't have any confidence in your skills. I usually feel this way when braking and entering a turn. More in some turns than others.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

The feeling you're going to screw up and crash. Because you don't have any confidence in your skills. I usually feel this way when braking and entering a turn. More in some turns than others.

Out of all the riding skills out there, which one would give you the most confidence and help reduce that feeling of fear? Why?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Out of all the riding skills out there, which one would give you the most confidence and help reduce that feeling of fear? Why?

That is an awesome question!!!!

Should be a battle between vision and throttle control.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Out of all the riding skills out there, which one would give you the most confidence and help reduce that feeling of fear? Why?

Vision, definitely vision

the better my visual skills get the better I get, the more confident I get and the slower everything feels since there is more time to set myself up for the next step

Beyond that it's all front end feel for me, I'm at a point where I can feel and understand what my front end is doing while leaned over and being able to feel that is both a huge confidence booster as well as a confidence killer. In that it is a booster where I understand more what's going on but a killer in the respect that I can feel that I'm very close to the limit but am not quite sure exactly where it is, bumps unsettling the front slightly are frustrating as well.

throttle control isn't as big since I'm on a 300 rather than a supersport but it will be a huge thing to properly learn when I get on a SS race bike in the future

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Misti

Out of all the riding skills out there, which one would give you the most confidence and help reduce that feeling of fear? Why?

Originally Posted by Sirref

Vision, definitely vision

the better my visual skills get the better I get, the more confident I get and the slower everything feels since there is more time to set myself up for the next step

throttle control isn't as big since I'm on a 300250 rather than a supersport but it will be a huge thing to properly learn when I get on a SS race bike in the future

^This. Having a better idea of where to brake and then where to begin a turn are definitely two points which helps. My question is what do you do when you're on a new road and don't know where to brake or start your turn. I think I just need proper coaching and more seat time. Last time I went for a riding school, I walked away with a broken wrist and not much else, will try attending one again end of november.

[Motofool]

Sorry, Ben.
I did mean to vote your post as helpful, but my big finger and my phone do not get along.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry, Ben.
I did mean to vote your post as helpful, but my big finger and my phone do not get along.

here I was hoping for a very interesting opinion on why a different skill was more important

it's all good

Originally Posted by psych0hans

^This. Having a better idea of where to brake and then where to begin a turn are definitely two points which helps. My question is what do you do when you're on a new road and don't know where to brake or start your turn. I think I just need proper coaching and more seat time. Last time I went for a riding school, I walked away with a broken wrist and not much else, will try attending one again end of november.

I go slower and absorb more visual cues
my approach to a new track and a country road are very different though
for a track slower is still pretty quick, but slow enough to where I can actively decide why I want to choose one line over another for later on
for a country road there are so many variables that I'm not going quick at all and have the time to react to basically anything ahead of me, especially noting blind crests to slow down for those since you really don't know what's on the other side of them

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

My question is what do you do when you're on a new road and don't know where to brake or start your turn. I think I just need proper coaching and more seat time. Last time I went for a riding school, I walked away with a broken wrist and not much else, will try attending one again end of november.

Go the speed limit.

Also, you shouldn't really need the brakes on the road, just don't accelerate that hard when you exit a corner. At least that's how it is in Wisconsin. All our good roads have 35 mph speed limits, so if I exit a corner at say 60 mph, there's zero reason for me to speed up on the straight before the next corner.

That's the biggest track vs. road difference for me.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by thisisbenji

Go the speed limit.

Also, you shouldn't really need the brakes on the road, just don't accelerate that hard when you exit a corner. At least that's how it is in Wisconsin. All our good roads have 35 mph speed limits, so if I exit a corner at say 60 mph, there's zero reason for me to speed up on the straight before the next corner.

That's the biggest track vs. road difference for me.

It's not really the speed, rather the perception of speed that really gets me. I'm not really a Fast rider and rarely go above 40-50mph, unless it's a really long straight and I can see way ahead. I just tend to panic way too quickly and get on the brakes way too soon, sometimes even if my speed is way lower than the corner might allow. Like I might panic on some turns even at speeds as low as 30-35mph... Those are generally blind turns or decreasing radius turns tho...

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

It's not really the speed, rather the perception of speed that really gets me. I'm not really a Fast rider and rarely go above 40-50mph, unless it's a really long straight and I can see way ahead. I just tend to panic way too quickly and get on the brakes way too soon, sometimes even if my speed is way lower than the corner might allow. Like I might panic on some turns even at speeds as low as 30-35mph... Those are generally blind turns or decreasing radius turns tho...

If your panicking, that means don't go any faster. Speed shouldn't be forced, it just kind of comes. At least on the street, I find there should be zero fear or panicking involved with corners. Just go a speed that feels fun.

Just because a corner might "allow" a certain speed doesn't mean that speed is right for "you".

[Panda]

Professional riders are looking for that last 1% and have consistent corner entry speeds. As a new track day rider I'm looking for that last 80% of performance.

I'm not sure how locking myself into consistent entry speeds which at the start of the day will feel fast and by the end of the day will feel slow is helpful.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

^This. Having a better idea of where to brake and then where to begin a turn are definitely two points which helps. My question is what do you do when you're on a new road and don't know where to brake or start your turn. I think I just need proper coaching and more seat time. Last time I went for a riding school, I walked away with a broken wrist and not much else, will try attending one again end of november.

When you are on a road you don't know you want to make sure that you are riding at a pace that is comfortable enough to pick up visual cues around you that let you know what the turn ahead is going to do. Can anyone chime in about how to go about garnering information about the turn ahead? How do you read the corners and know whether it is going to tighten up, open up or stay constant radius?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

It's not really the speed, rather the perception of speed that really gets me. I'm not really a Fast rider and rarely go above 40-50mph, unless it's a really long straight and I can see way ahead. I just tend to panic way too quickly and get on the brakes way too soon, sometimes even if my speed is way lower than the corner might allow. Like I might panic on some turns even at speeds as low as 30-35mph... Those are generally blind turns or decreasing radius turns tho...

If you are having trouble with your perception of speed and panicking on some corners even if you are going to slow, it has to do with what your eyes are doing and what they are looking at. Chances are you are allowing your vision to tunnel down, not look far enough ahead, and fixate on things that you think may be dangerous. This alters your sense of speed and makes you feel like you are going faster than necessary. If you don't see enough around you then you don't have enough space. Not enough space = not enough time. This goes hand in hand with what I suggested above about looking for visual cues from the road to see what the corner is going to do.

Basically you want to be looking further ahead and ensuring that you aren't target fixating or allowing your vision to tunnel.