Youtube Accident Analysis

Samer · July 1st, 2011, 06:19 PM

I used to look at accidents on Youtube, trying to understand what went wrong in order to avoid doing it myself. Here is one video which I think is an excellent example of how there is often a chain reaction of events which can cause an accident....

Link to original page on YouTube.

Here is my non-expert analysis:

1) Poor body position on the turn. He is riding 'twisted'. If you draw a line from his butt to his head, the line would be pointing in the opposite direction to the turn. If his head was fully leaned into the turn, the following events wouldn't happen.

2) Overreaction to foot peg rub. Stands the bike up completely, chops the throttle. Seems to panic and give up on the turn.

3) Target fixation. Notice that after the bike is stood up, the helmet is pointing straight on, in the direction of trouble. Don't let the panic take over!

Any experts, please feel free to add to this analysis and/or correct if necessary.

Be safe out there!

Alex · July 1st, 2011, 08:13 PM

Cause: proximity of cameras.

Forget all of the BP issues, while accurate, it wasn't the cause. He was trying to get great lean angle for the camera crew that's always up there, scraped the peg which spooked him, and he ran straight off the road. And even then he might have saved it at that speed if he didn't hammer the front brake once on the dirt, which put him down immediately.

Newish rider, limited experience. Poor bike.

choneofakind · July 1st, 2011, 08:30 PM

yeah and since he was more focused on his lean angle than his turn, his line suffered and caused him to lean further and touch the peg in the first place.

adri99an · July 1st, 2011, 08:48 PM

That will all buff right out.....

Once you watch one crash- you just wanna keep watching all the crashes on Youtube....great analysis Samer, Chris and Alex.

kaiserz · July 1st, 2011, 08:57 PM

also poor, throttle control

correct me if I'm wrong but I think he wasn't rolling on the gas that much on that turn.
I read somewhere that rolling on the gas helps keep the bike up on suspension, and that improves the leanover clearance

choneofakind · July 1st, 2011, 08:57 PM

yeah i know what you mean! i've wasted so much time watching every video from mulholland drive by rnickeymouse that i can. basically it reinforces slow in fast out in my mind and reminds me that even though i love riding and going fast, motorcycling is still an inherently dangerous activity

choneofakind · July 1st, 2011, 09:00 PM

idk about the leaning clearance getting better from rolling on the throttle. but I do know that it keeps the bike balanced, even if just using small amounts of "maintenance" throttle to keep it from shifting mid turn

adri99an · July 1st, 2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choneofakind

yeah i know what you mean! i've wasted so much time watching every video from mulholland drive by rnickeymouse that i can. basically it reinforces slow in fast out in my mind and reminds me that even though i love riding and going fast, motorcycling is still an inherently dangerous activity

I hear ya man- I've been watching for the last 15 minutes and so many things you gotta get right in a turn!!!!

kaiserz · July 1st, 2011, 09:10 PM

well, like you said, slow in fast out.

alex.s · July 1st, 2011, 09:28 PM

unless the audio is out of sync, it looks like he lost his rear first and that caused the scrape

edit: nevermind the replay in slomo shows the scrape caused the rear to buck out

jamesio · July 1st, 2011, 10:10 PM

oooh jeez, ouch that sucks...thats painful to watch for both the bike and the rider.

rickyny · July 2nd, 2011, 01:51 AM

I agree with Samer, he panics and gives up on the turn.
He could have still made the turn, but decided to stop at the wrong
place.

Live2ride · July 2nd, 2011, 06:52 PM

Omg, that poor bike

. One of the main things we were taught in our msf course was, if you scrape a peg in your turn you finish out the corner at that lean angle and don't do exactly what this guy did. He was obviously inexperienced, after scraping peg, he freaked out and up-righted the bike while fixating on where he crashed instead of looking through the turn and staying down (leaned). He could have made that turn if he had his body position like a real track rider, body on the left side, knee down, head far away from the bike to maintain the best lean angle. Instead he sat on the center of the seat, head above the gas tank (center of bike), and used much more lean angle than he needed to which led to the whole incident.

ally99 · July 3rd, 2011, 04:16 AM

Ouch! Yep, he got spooked. Looked like he didn't make the best line choice either. It was pretty far inside. Poor guy. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

adri99an · July 3rd, 2011, 12:31 PM

When I first began scraping my peg- it did and really does spook you because it sounds horrible!!! I could see why he flinched badly!!

You gotta get used to it...now I leave my foot slightly off the peg and can feel the road hit before I get to the peg.

Jinx250 · July 5th, 2011, 08:08 AM

His BP, while not great, wasn't that bad. All he ahd to do to save it was not target fixate on that mountain (it's a BIG mountain), and hang off a tad more and complete the turn.

The problem is that particular curve has a buttlaod of crashes, and not all of them are rider error. Because of all the crashes, there tends to be a lot of slick residue on the surface. Very easy to wash out the front or rear.

ducducgooseit · July 5th, 2011, 12:08 PM

Most of rnickey's captured crashes are the result of improper speed relative to rider skill level.

CZroe · July 9th, 2011, 10:16 PM

I know you aren't supposed to brake in a turn but I practice it all the time for when I need to. I made a scary left turn once where, for seemingly no reason, the rear tire locked up for a moment, causing me to drift right, let go, regain traction, and find myself now going too fast and needing to reapply it more than ever, which caused it to lock up again (I was already at the maximum front brake I was comfortable with mid-turn). This cycle happened a few times until I had to drift out of my turning lane and into another. Luckily, the cars in that lane were attentive and allowed me in without incident. I was blipping my horn, just to be sure.

I probably had oil on the side of my tire somehow. Now, I only practice mid-turn braking when there are no cars around.

alex.s · July 9th, 2011, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZroe

I know you aren't supposed to brake in a turn but I practice it all the time for when I need to. I made a scary left turn once where, for seemingly no reason, the rear tire locked up for a moment, causing me to drift right, let go, regain traction, and find myself now going too fast and needing to reapply it more than ever, which caused it to lock up again (I was already at the maximum front brake I was comfortable with mid-turn). This cycle happened a few times until I had to drift out of my turning lane and into another. Luckily, the cars in that lane were attentive and allowed me in without incident. I was blipping my horn, just to be sure.

I probably had oil on the side of my tire somehow. Now, I only practice mid-turn braking when there are no cars around.

scary. trail braking lets you brake mid turn easier since your front is still loaded... you don't wind up see-sawing the bike. of course you have to be going faster than you need to into the turn in order for the trail brake not to slow you down too much that you have to adjust your lean angle which jacks with your front traction

phr3ek · July 10th, 2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

scary. trail braking lets you brake mid turn easier since your front is still loaded... you don't wind up see-sawing the bike. of course you have to be going faster than you need to into the turn in order for the trail brake not to slow you down too much that you have to adjust your lean angle which jacks with your front traction

trail braking makes for sharper turns

when in doubt, power out

the cause for the riders mishap was plain and simple
he realized mid turn that he couldve saved a bunch of money by switching to geico

Kevin2109 · July 10th, 2011, 08:56 PM

Ouch this one hurt me!

Link to original page on YouTube.

And I just went on this today!!! :P

phr3ek · July 10th, 2011, 09:26 PM

^^^i aint canyon carving till i get pants now

Kevin2109 · July 10th, 2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phr3ek

^^^i aint canyon carving till i get pants now

crazy enough, the cop that pulled me and adrian over did mention this guy going down

No way! What did he say?

alex.s · July 10th, 2011, 09:49 PM

that poor buell!

Kevin2109 · July 10th, 2011, 09:51 PM

I know what an

!!!

Havok · July 11th, 2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

Cause: proximity of cameras.

Forget all of the BP issues, while accurate, it wasn't the cause. He was trying to get great lean angle for the camera crew that's always up there, scraped the peg which spooked him, and he ran straight off the road. And even then he might have saved it at that speed if he didn't hammer the front brake once on the dirt, which put him down immediately.

Newish rider, limited experience. Poor bike.

+1 to the camera guy! More people wreck on that turn because they want that sweet pic with there knee down, Problem is he is so far down the turn that to get your knee down so soon you are at full lean, its a decreasing radius turn and you have to lean just a bit more during the turn. The guys that know what they are doing tend to low side if they loose it, newer riders try to stand up and brake and either high side or hit the dirt/over the guard rail.

HypnoKhaos · July 11th, 2011, 01:24 AM

Love the way that tennis-shoed foot bends the way it's not supposed to on mr. buell

Xoulrath · July 17th, 2011, 12:49 AM

Double ouch!

Seeing that reminds me why I wear my knee/shin guards every time I ride. Now to get some real boots for when I commute so the foot thing doesn't happen if ever I should be so unfortunate as to not be able to maintain control of my valiant steed.

wtfh4xx · July 17th, 2011, 08:49 PM

Poor R1, looks like he busted the crank open.

C L · July 21st, 2011, 08:54 PM

Can someone explain what the rider with the Buell did wrong there?

Alex · July 21st, 2011, 08:57 PM

He grabbed the front brake hard enough to immediately lock the front tire long enough for it lose grip and wash out. You can't nail the front brake after you've already started to turn in.

C L · July 21st, 2011, 08:59 PM

Oh I see.
I thought it was some kind of a countersteering problem but I was way off lol

"A" · July 21st, 2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C L

Can someone explain what the rider with the Buell did wrong there?

Body lean opposite of bike lean, should have been hanging off the bike with upper body closer to the pavement, rather than away from the pavement shown in the video.

Should have been on the throttle at the point where the front wheel washed out, not on the front brake.

The left ankle looks busted.

July 1st, 2011, 06:19 PM	#1
Samer ninjette.org guru Name: Samer Location: Jupiter, Florida Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 376	Youtube Accident Analysis I used to look at accidents on Youtube, trying to understand what went wrong in order to avoid doing it myself. Here is one video which I think is an excellent example of how there is often a chain reaction of events which can cause an accident.... Link to original page on YouTube. Here is my non-expert analysis: 1) Poor body position on the turn. He is riding 'twisted'. If you draw a line from his butt to his head, the line would be pointing in the opposite direction to the turn. If his head was fully leaned into the turn, the following events wouldn't happen. 2) Overreaction to foot peg rub. Stands the bike up completely, chops the throttle. Seems to panic and give up on the turn. 3) Target fixation. Notice that after the bike is stood up, the helmet is pointing straight on, in the direction of trouble. Don't let the panic take over! Any experts, please feel free to add to this analysis and/or correct if necessary. Be safe out there!

July 1st, 2011, 08:13 PM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Cause: proximity of cameras. Forget all of the BP issues, while accurate, it wasn't the cause. He was trying to get great lean angle for the camera crew that's always up there, scraped the peg which spooked him, and he ran straight off the road. And even then he might have saved it at that speed if he didn't hammer the front brake once on the dirt, which put him down immediately. Newish rider, limited experience. Poor bike. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 1st, 2011, 09:28 PM	#10
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	unless the audio is out of sync, it looks like he lost his rear first and that caused the scrape edit: nevermind the replay in slomo shows the scrape caused the rear to buck out __________________________________________________

July 1st, 2011, 10:10 PM	#11
jamesio ninjette.org guru Name: Moe Location: Earth Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): None Posts: 424	oooh jeez, ouch that sucks...thats painful to watch for both the bike and the rider. __________________________________________________ '09 Ninja 250R SE TB Slip-On l Puig DB l Pazzos l Pro-Grips

July 2nd, 2011, 06:52 PM	#13
Live2ride ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Cody Location: NoVa Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 06 yzf r6r previously: 09 ninja 250r, black 07 zx6r Posts: A lot.	Omg, that poor bike . One of the main things we were taught in our msf course was, if you scrape a peg in your turn you finish out the corner at that lean angle and don't do exactly what this guy did. He was obviously inexperienced, after scraping peg, he freaked out and up-righted the bike while fixating on where he crashed instead of looking through the turn and staying down (leaned). He could have made that turn if he had his body position like a real track rider, body on the left side, knee down, head far away from the bike to maintain the best lean angle. Instead he sat on the center of the seat, head above the gas tank (center of bike), and used much more lean angle than he needed to which led to the whole incident. __________________________________________________

July 1st, 2011, 08:30 PM	#3
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	yeah and since he was more focused on his lean angle than his turn, his line suffered and caused him to lean further and touch the peg in the first place.

July 1st, 2011, 08:48 PM	#4
adri99an ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Donger Location: So CAL Join Date: Dec 2009 Motorcycle(s): "Is that a Ninjer 1000?" Posts: A lot.	That will all buff right out..... Once you watch one crash- you just wanna keep watching all the crashes on Youtube....great analysis Samer, Chris and Alex.

July 1st, 2011, 08:57 PM	#5
kaiserz There's a limit to s2pdty Name: A.D. Location: NoVa the burg Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250r ninja (sold) Posts: A lot.	also poor, throttle control correct me if I'm wrong but I think he wasn't rolling on the gas that much on that turn. I read somewhere that rolling on the gas helps keep the bike up on suspension, and that improves the leanover clearance

July 1st, 2011, 09:00 PM	#7
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	idk about the leaning clearance getting better from rolling on the throttle. but I do know that it keeps the bike balanced, even if just using small amounts of "maintenance" throttle to keep it from shifting mid turn

July 1st, 2011, 09:10 PM	#9
kaiserz There's a limit to s2pdty Name: A.D. Location: NoVa the burg Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250r ninja (sold) Posts: A lot.	well, like you said, slow in fast out.

July 2nd, 2011, 01:51 AM	#12
rickyny ninjette.org member Name: Ricky Location: New York Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 GF500F Posts: 42	I agree with Samer, he panics and gives up on the turn. He could have still made the turn, but decided to stop at the wrong place.

July 3rd, 2011, 04:16 AM	#14
ally99 Ninja chick Name: Allyson Location: Athens, GA Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 4 MOTM - Dec '13, Feb '15	Ouch! Yep, he got spooked. Looked like he didn't make the best line choice either. It was pretty far inside. Poor guy. Some lessons are learned the hard way. __________________________________________________ Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson

July 3rd, 2011, 12:31 PM	#15
adri99an ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Donger Location: So CAL Join Date: Dec 2009 Motorcycle(s): "Is that a Ninjer 1000?" Posts: A lot.	When I first began scraping my peg- it did and really does spook you because it sounds horrible!!! I could see why he flinched badly!! You gotta get used to it...now I leave my foot slightly off the peg and can feel the road hit before I get to the peg.

July 5th, 2011, 08:08 AM	#16
Jinx250 Smoker Name: Bob Location: SoCal Join Date: Dec 2010 Motorcycle(s): Guess.... Posts: 556	His BP, while not great, wasn't that bad. All he ahd to do to save it was not target fixate on that mountain (it's a BIG mountain), and hang off a tad more and complete the turn. The problem is that particular curve has a buttlaod of crashes, and not all of them are rider error. Because of all the crashes, there tends to be a lot of slick residue on the surface. Very easy to wash out the front or rear.

July 5th, 2011, 12:08 PM	#17
ducducgooseit Name: ... Location: ... Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): ... Posts: 999	Most of rnickey's captured crashes are the result of improper speed relative to rider skill level.

July 9th, 2011, 10:16 PM	#18
CZroe CPT Falcon Name: J.Emmett Turner Location: Newnan, GA Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 CP Blue EX250J, '97 unpainted EX250F, 2nd '97 unpainted EX250F (no engine), '07 black EX250F Posts: A lot.	I know you aren't supposed to brake in a turn but I practice it all the time for when I need to. I made a scary left turn once where, for seemingly no reason, the rear tire locked up for a moment, causing me to drift right, let go, regain traction, and find myself now going too fast and needing to reapply it more than ever, which caused it to lock up again (I was already at the maximum front brake I was comfortable with mid-turn). This cycle happened a few times until I had to drift out of my turning lane and into another. Luckily, the cars in that lane were attentive and allowed me in without incident. I was blipping my horn, just to be sure. I probably had oil on the side of my tire somehow. Now, I only practice mid-turn braking when there are no cars around.

July 10th, 2011, 08:56 PM	#21
Kevin2109 KThanksBye Name: Kevin Location: Orange County Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 zx636r Posts: A lot.	Ouch this one hurt me! Link to original page on YouTube. And I just went on this today!!! :P __________________________________________________ ----> My Youtube! <---- Unregistered, watch my youtube page!

July 10th, 2011, 09:26 PM	#22
phr3ek meow? Name: kevin Location: I.E. SoCal Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2004 636 Posts: 587	^^^i aint canyon carving till i get pants now

July 10th, 2011, 09:49 PM	#24
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	that poor buell! __________________________________________________

July 10th, 2011, 09:51 PM	#25
Kevin2109 KThanksBye Name: Kevin Location: Orange County Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 zx636r Posts: A lot.	I know what an !!! __________________________________________________ ----> My Youtube! <---- Unregistered, watch my youtube page!

July 11th, 2011, 01:24 AM	#27
HypnoKhaos Deep inside...your mind.. Name: Jeremy Location: Yucaipa Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja Zx6r 636 Posts: 110	Love the way that tennis-shoed foot bends the way it's not supposed to on mr. buell __________________________________________________ Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

July 17th, 2011, 12:49 AM	#28
Xoulrath ninjette.org sage Name: T Location: U.S. Join Date: May 2010 Motorcycle(s): Current: '11 ZX-6R; Previous: '09 Ninjette; '08 ZX-6R (Ex-Wife '09 TU250X) Posts: 981	Double ouch! Seeing that reminds me why I wear my knee/shin guards every time I ride. Now to get some real boots for when I commute so the foot thing doesn't happen if ever I should be so unfortunate as to not be able to maintain control of my valiant steed. __________________________________________________ R.I.P EthioKnight (Alex)

July 17th, 2011, 08:49 PM	#29
wtfh4xx Opinionated individual :) Name: SecretNinjaMan Location: Nor Cal Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninjette Special Edition (red/black) Posts: 342	Poor R1, looks like he busted the crank open. __________________________________________________ Yoshi slip on, shimmed 2 washers, zip tie throttle mod, pre-load #2, snorkel delete 2010 SE 250R! Miles in the saddle: 1000

July 21st, 2011, 08:54 PM	#30
C L ninjette.org member Name: Andrew Location: Orlando, FL Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2014 300 Posts: 162	Can someone explain what the rider with the Buell did wrong there?

July 21st, 2011, 08:57 PM	#31
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	He grabbed the front brake hard enough to immediately lock the front tire long enough for it lose grip and wash out. You can't nail the front brake after you've already started to turn in. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 21st, 2011, 08:59 PM	#32
C L ninjette.org member Name: Andrew Location: Orlando, FL Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2014 300 Posts: 162	Oh I see. I thought it was some kind of a countersteering problem but I was way off lol

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