Holiday Rant

[250Rocket]

To further discussion here's something:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78647482.html

Ore. school removes holiday tree, bans Santa Claus

ASHLAND, Ore. (AP) - The principal of an elementary school in Ashland, Ore., has removed a holiday giving tree from the school after several families complained it was a religious symbol.

The Ashland Daily Tidings reports that Bellview Elementary Principal Michelle Zundel had the tree taken down over Thanksgiving break and replaced by two snowmen.

You can read the full story at the link.

But seriously

[zartan]

This is just plain stupid. I am not Christian and I do not get offended by Christmas trees, cards or other winter holidays celebrated by other religions.

As long as no one loses an eye it is all good.


I even give and receive Christmas present. People need to build a bridge and get over it. Kids can't have any fun anymore. Schools should celebrate all holidays possible.
Isn't learning about different religons and cultures a part of a good education. I think they called it Social Studies.

I think Jesus would be disgusted with this too.

[talldrink]

Originally Posted by zartan

This is just plain stupid. I am not Christian and I do not get offended by Christmas trees, cards or other winter holidays celebrated by other religions.

As long as no one loses an eye it is all good.


I even give and receive Christmas present. People need to build a bridge and get over it. Kids can't have any fun anymore. Schools should celebrate all holidays possible.
Isn't learning about different religons and cultures a part of a good education. I think they called it Social Studies.

I think Jesus would be disgusted with this too.

+1

[ScraitT]

How is a Christmas tree and Santa religious? If you were placing an angel on top of the tree, maybe, but other then that I don't see anything religious about it?

[talldrink]

I understood Zartan to mean that putting up a Christmas tree is how most Christians celebrate Christmas and that he/she is not offended by that , or any other, religious -oriented celebratory methods. (sorry Zartan if I have misunderstood you)

That it was I took it as and what I was responding in the affirmative to.

Geez........you guys are so sensitive which is EXACTLY what (I THOUGHT) this thread was attempting to ease up on.

[kevlarorc]

Have a wonderful solstice!

[ScraitT]

Originally Posted by talldrink

I understood Zartan to mean that putting up a Christmas tree is how most Christians celebrate Christmas and that he/she is not offended by that , or any other, religious -oriented celebratory methods. (sorry Zartan if I have misunderstood you)

That it was I took it as and what I was responding in the affirmative to.

Geez........you guys are so sensitive which is EXACTLY what (I THOUGHT) this thread was attempting to ease up on.

I'm assuming this was in responce to my post?

If so, my post wasn't toward you (or anyone here) Sorry for any misconceptions.
It was more in response to the news story that 250Rocket posted about a school taking down a tree because people deemed it religious. Everyone I know, Christian, Catholic, or Atheist, puts a tree and and gives presents. The only people I know that doesn't are the Jewish, who have a specific holiday tradition. The Christians usually just go to church on Christmas as their religious act for the holiday.

[talldrink]

Originally Posted by ScraitT

I'm assuming this was in responce to my post?

If so, my post wasn't toward you (or anyone here) Sorry for any misconceptions.
It was more in response to the news story that 250Rocket posted about a school taking down a tree because people deemed it religious. Everyone I know, Christian, Catholic, or Atheist, puts a tree and and gives presents. The only people I know that doesn't are the Jewish, who have a specific holiday tradition. The Christians usually just go to church on Christmas as their religious act for the holiday.

No problems - it's all good. Agreed about the school taking down a tree story.

[ManyCavies]

Originally Posted by zartan

Isn't learning about different religons and cultures a part of a good education. I think they called it Social Studies.

I agree Maybe if we learned more about it in schools people would be more tolerant.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by 250Rocket

To further discussion here's something:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78647482.html

Ore. school removes holiday tree, bans Santa Claus


You can read the full story at the link.

But seriously

Seriously, those people should have respect for other people, if they put up a damn tree, let them have their damn tree. Why would it be offensive to anyone? Some religious people are offended about anything that isn't "the truth" in their own views.

[ninja250]

The only time I think it's wrong is when a belief/tradition is forced upon somebody but that's a different story.

This.

[addy126]

Go to the Middle East and try changing their ideas to make you feel more at home.... ya think thats gonna happen... hardly. They come here or to Canada and everyone has to alter beliefs in order not to offend theirs and we roll over with our legs in the air. Let me take it one further.... Canadian Mounties a strong and decades old institution in the latter 1980's are "forced" to change their headgear from the "standard" cap and/or ranger style to allow a "Turban" with badge applied to the front in order to engage "religious" beliefs into the uniform..... I railed at that! Emigrated to the U.S. to get away from all this "yielding" of Canadian standards... well you can run but ya can't hide.... now the pressure is on in the U.S. to yield for various situations....... way too much watering down of North American culture to offshore entities... way too many.

Ohhhhhh Ningetters.... have a very...."Merry Christmas" to all U.S. and Canadian Citizens!!!!!! and a very "Happy New Year".

[addy126]

Originally Posted by zartan

Isn't learning about different religons and cultures a part of a good education. I think they called it Social Studies.

I think Jesus would be disgusted with this too.

Learning about different religions & cultures is a good thing and you become well rounded... but being choked on it by some disregarding ours and demanding change just doesn't cut it.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by addy126

Go to the Middle East and try changing their ideas to make you feel more at home.... ya think thats gonna happen... hardly. They come here or to Canada and everyone has to alter beliefs in order not to offend theirs and we roll over with our legs in the air. Let me take it one further.... Canadian Mounties a strong and decades old institution in the latter 1980's are "forced" to change their headgear from the "standard" cap and/or ranger style to allow a "Turban" with badge applied to the front in order to engage "religious" beliefs into the uniform..... I railed at that! Emigrated to the U.S. to get away from all this "yielding" of Canadian standards... well you can run but ya can't hide.... now the pressure is on in the U.S. to yield for various situations....... way too much watering down of North American culture to offshore entities... way too many.

Ohhhhhh Ningetters.... have a very...."Merry Christmas" to all U.S. and Canadian Citizens!!!!!! and a very "Happy New Year".

In the middle East, the government is tied-in with the religion, that's why.

[zartan]

Originally Posted by talldrink

I understood Zartan to mean that putting up a Christmas tree is how most Christians celebrate Christmas and that he/she is not offended by that , or any other, religious -oriented celebratory methods. (sorry Zartan if I have misunderstood you)

that is what I was saying. It is all just fine with me!!
tree should have stayed.

A christmas tree represents many things and ideals.
this is a good thing!

[zartan]

Originally Posted by kevlarorc

Have a wonderful solstice!

Back at ya!!

[ManyCavies]

Originally Posted by addy126

Learning about different religions & cultures is a good thing and you become well rounded... but being choked on it by some disregarding ours and demanding change just doesn't cut it.

And by "OURS" do you mean yours? So tell me , What is mine? Couldn't this have been said about slavery? Didn't the Christians in this country think they had the right to own people, after all the bible said so. The only reason we are in the middle east is because of oil, We want it and they have it. And our country is run by the rich who want to get richer with oil. That is the only reason we care about their religion. If we really cared about religious suffering then we wouldn't support the Chinese government and their hostile takeover of Tibet. Think about it. Read about it!

[zartan]

+1 too much opinion in this world all over is driven by religion and not common sense.

[Jerry]

Or...why doesn't Santa come to my house?

I mean, Santa was a childhood tradition for me, but I had no illusions...perpetuate the myth, and as long as little sister believes, he keeps coming.. for us teenagers, too...good deal for kids, little white lie... parents are in...get stuff...win/win...that's how kid's think, no?

My wife grew up in a very devout Catholic family, but rather poor...Santa doesn't visit poor families so much, I've learned. O. Henry or No Henry, no Magi, no gifts. The birth of a messiah was enough. Gifts were not the point. A few years ago, the Easter Bunny stopped showing up at my house. My kids didn't really notice....made me proud of them...

I think the reason there is such resistance to the "Merry Christmas" is the burden it places on the parents of children who have to go to school around the New Year with no new clothes.

Maybe it's poverty, maybe it's Islam, Bhuddism, or Judaism, but the fact remains, your kids either got lotsa stuff or they didn't. If you have a teenage girl in high school, maybe you can relate.

Unfortunately, the message of O. Henry seems to have been lost. It strikes me as sad. In that story, personal sacrifice for love is the message...the message is not about running up debt, it is about giving of ones self...sacrifice, if you will.

My wife and I, we don't have a lot of money. We aren't church-going folk. We may content ourselves with the knowledge that we convey to our children that the gift of the little drummer boy, or O. Henry's gift of the Magi, is the true spirit of the season...somehow, an Ipod Nano in your stocking just doesn't stack up.

But still, they are going back to school...and what will they have to show and tell?

It's a tough season, for the rest of us.

[lockie]

For the past decade or so at Christmas I read part of Charles Dicken's A Christmas Carol at a public performance sponsored by CBC Radio. I enjoy performing but the story also reminds me each year of what the season means for all of us, even the non-Christian. It reminds me that all humanity has an obligation to help out each other; not just because of all the pain and suffering in the world but because we grow more human when we care for the well being of others.

This year's performance is on tonight. If you're in town come in and get free admission.

Take Care

[cifex]

Originally Posted by zartan

This is just plain stupid. I am not Christian and I do not get offended by Christmas trees, cards or other winter holidays celebrated by other religions.

As long as no one loses an eye it is all good.


I even give and receive Christmas present. People need to build a bridge and get over it. Kids can't have any fun anymore. Schools should celebrate all holidays possible.
Isn't learning about different religons and cultures a part of a good education. I think they called it Social Studies.

I think Jesus would be disgusted with this too.

You may not be offended by it but you are an adult. Having Christmas trees and celebrations in school DOES create an environment that alienates kids who are not Christian. Kids are kids and they will not miss an opportunity to torture anyone who is different.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by cifex

You may not be offended by it but you are an adult. Having Christmas trees and celebrations in school DOES create an environment that alienates kids who are not Christian. Kids are kids and they will not miss an opportunity to torture anyone who is different.

I can sympathize with this, but the taking down of a Christmas tree is yet another ineffective band aid solution intended to give the appearance of affirmative action. By subduing the freedoms of others, I seriously doubt anyone is going to learn anything. In fact, the kids of "other religions" may get blamed by the Christian kids (and parents), which will only propagate more hate mongering.

You can't always please everybody, but at the very least you should try and please most people. Taking down a Christmas tree may present a sterile environment where no child will feel "alienated", but at the same time, it robs other children of being able to celebrate a very festive holiday. I'd rather they put up a minora and tried to respect the tradition of Ramadan rather than take down the frigin tree.

[addy126]

Originally Posted by ManyCavies

And by "OURS" do you mean yours? So tell me , What is mine? Couldn't this have been said about slavery? Didn't the Christians in this country think they had the right to own people, after all the bible said so. The only reason we are in the middle east is because of oil, We want it and they have it. And our country is run by the rich who want to get richer with oil. That is the only reason we care about their religion. If we really cared about religious suffering then we wouldn't support the Chinese government and their hostile takeover of Tibet. Think about it. Read about it!

I used "ours" as general... mine is Atheist... but I don't demand those around me to stuff their stuff or change the Merry and Happy. If the country was founded on Merry Xmas and Happy New Year then let it be There are larger issues to be concerned about. If offended, go back home. If you emigrate to another country follow its fashion, don't push your beliefs into its institutions. Slavery .. don't get me started. China and Tibet... thats their fight to fix. Why push my beliefs into their government issue. Think and read about it?... how do you know I've not.... tsk tsk some people simply surmise about others... Besides my real factual rant was about Turbanizing and slapping a badge on it changing the Canadian Federal police force look significantly and basing it on religion instead of a government institution... think about it ...read about it. hmm these types of threads always leads to "crazy".

[ai4px]

I was just leafing through this "olde threade"....

Some thoughts.... If I'm Christian and someone wishes me happy hanukkah, I take it as a well wish from them. If I were Jewish and someone wished me "merry Christmas", I'd take it as a pleasant greeting and a well-wish. I can't understand why people have to be so offended. It's like we're silly kids all over again... looking for something to be offended about. I'm on a tangent, but bear with me... I tell my kids that there are two parts to love... the giving part and the receiving part. Just because their grandmother gives them a knitted sweater that they don't appreciate doesn't mean she doesn't love them... it's how she expresses her love for them. It may not be how they wanted her to show that love, but it is there nonetheless. Same goes for us grownups.... if someone wishes you happiness in the way they know how, why does that offend?? Damned if i know... maybe we're just too ego-centric to see it from another's perspective?

As for other holidays like Valentines and Easter... my daughter came home from her 6th grade middle school class very disturbed one day. The teacher had not given the kids candy, nor had any kids brought any. You see, valentines is not about love or romance... it's about CANDY to her! And she didn't get any candy that day! The horror!

So happy happy and merry merry to all, and to all a good ride.

P.S. Would it offend anyone if I called ninjette riders Ninjers? lol.

[ManyCavies]

Thank you for your post! I have often been yelled at that I didn't say Merry Christmas. Gee This country has many beliefs and many reliegions Lets all just get along

[Jiggles]

I never say it to people, its always kinda weird when they say it to me though, like oh uh do I say it back or what.

I don't really care though

[Whiskey]

I'm a heathen who doesn't believe in ghost stories of any variety, but the "happy holidays" bolloxology designed to be in-offensive to everyone really pisses me off.

The major 3 religions believe in their big imaginary friend, if you read their books it turns out that it's the same big imaginary friend, so why would they be offended by being told to enjoy a celebration in honour of their imaginary friend...

[himynameisjoe]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I'm a heathen who doesn't believe in ghost stories of any variety, but the "happy holidays" bolloxology designed to be in-offensive to everyone really pisses me off.

The major 3 religions believe in their big imaginary friend, if you read their books it turns out that it's the same big imaginary friend, so why would they be offended by being told to enjoy a celebration in honour of their imaginary friend...

and more

[Fappy]

Yeah. We're always trying to appease everyone. And since there are so many damn religions and cultures out there, (MOST of whom have some kind of winter solstice celebration, e.g. Christmas), I think "Happy Holidays" is a safe way to cover it all at the same time.
You could say "Happy Solstice" if you want, and it'd probably be just as correct, but that just seems weird lol.

It's my opinion that there are two rules with this stuff:
1) Don't impose or enforce your personal beliefs on other people, and
2) Don't get offended when someone wishes you well, REGARDLESS of from what worldview they wish it (like "Merry Christmas!"). It's just a friendly greeting and well-wishing. People are so easily upset...

I'm an atheist, but I love this time of year. It brings people together, celebrates human spirit, and it encourages all sorts kindness and companionship. What's not to love? CHILL, YOU IGNORANT AMERICAN GENERAL PUBLIC. :P

[Daks]

I just don't say anything anymore.
When you work retail, wishing me a happy anything for the last two months of the year is like telling me to cheer up because it's almost the weekend. May as well be a "F*ck you".

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by himynameisjoe

and more

Why's that?

You have your traditions & values, immigrants have their own traditions & values, if they don't like their new country's way of doing things then they should go somewhere with that suits them better

I'm an immigrant, It takes a lot to inadvertently offend me.

What I do find extremely offensive is other immigrants who want to make their new country just like their old one (if it was that great then why did you leave), and the PC brigade who bend over backwards & stamp on their own values in the process to avoid offending them.

[himynameisjoe]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Why's that?

You have your traditions & values, immigrants have their own traditions & values, if they don't like their new country's way of doing things then they should go somewhere with that suits them better

I'm an immigrant, It takes a lot to inadvertently offend me.

What I do find extremely offensive is other immigrants who want to make their new country just like their old one (if it was that great then why did you leave), and the PC brigade who bend over backwards & stamp on their own values in the process to avoid offending them.

Huh? I was agreeing with you...

[Apex]

This guy will always say "Merry Christmas". Or, just to bug my wife, I'll say "Happy Christmas".

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

The major 3 religions believe in their big imaginary friend, if you read their books it turns out that it's the same big imaginary friend, so why would they be offended by being told to enjoy a celebration in honour of their imaginary friend...

You lost me here. Christmas is traditionally a Christian observed holiday in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Particularly the miracle of the virgin birth. I'm pretty certain that Judaism does not accept the virgin birth or that he was the son of the Hebrew God. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet and his virgin birth, however, they don't mark it as a holiday or see him as a son of God.

I'm assuming these are the religions you are referring to when you mention the major 3 as in reality the 3rd largest religion by following is Hinduism and that wouldn't really fit in with your point. But if you actually read all the books, you'll realize that the concept of God is quite different among Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim.

[ai4px]

Sheesh.... youse skyies are making me sorry I re-activated this thread.
Merry Merry, and Happy Happy.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Boom King

You lost me here. Christmas is traditionally a Christian observed holiday in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Particularly the miracle of the virgin birth. I'm pretty certain that Judaism does not accept the virgin birth or that he was the son of the Hebrew God. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet and his virgin birth, however, they don't mark it as a holiday or see him as a son of God.

I was referring to the boss not the messenger.

Christians believe that God (the same one that the Jews believe in) sent his son as his messenger, Islam accepts that Jesus existed & was an earlier prophet from Allah bringing his message before Mohammed.

They call him by different names, but one story is built on the other.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I was referring to the boss not the messenger.

Christians believe that God (the same one that the Jews believe in) sent his son as his messenger, Islam accepts that Jesus existed & was an earlier prophet from Allah bringing his message before Mohammed.

They call him by different names, but one story is built on the other.

Well if you were referring to the boss, not sure where you're going with the whole shared Christmas celebration angle with Muslims and Jews. And actually all three books make reference to the God of Abraham. The shared belief in one Grand Omnipotent Designer of the universe among these religions is really where the similarities start and end. What's more crucial to their faith is their understanding of God and his representation.

You are forgetting one of the fundamental principles of the Christian faith; that of God as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One substance, three persons but each person is God. Christians believe Jesus is God. Jews and Muslims don't. Their understanding of God is unitarian. Also in fact, traditionally, Judaism has viewed Jesus as a false messiah.

So your comment that Jews and Muslims should be happy to celebrate a holiday in honour of their imaginary friend because they all believe in this same entity is like saying to a Jewish person or Muslim that they should accept Jesus as God as well. Not to mention calling their god imaginary and I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim found that both as ignorant and offensive.

[ai4px]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I was referring to the boss not the messenger.

Christians believe that God (the same one that the Jews believe in) sent his son as his messenger, Islam accepts that Jesus existed & was an earlier prophet from Allah bringing his message before Mohammed.

They call him by different names, but one story is built on the other.

I can just see Jesus and God sitting in Heaven... God says "Jesus Christ, I just want them to love one another!"

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

Happy Birthday, Jesus!

It's highly unlikely that it's his birthday.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Well if you were referring to the boss, not sure where you're going with the whole shared Christmas celebration angle with Muslims and Jews. And actually all three books make reference to the God of Abraham. The shared belief in one Grand Omnipotent Designer of the universe among these religions is really where the similarities start and end. What's more crucial to their faith is their understanding of God and his representation.

You are forgetting one of the fundamental principles of the Christian faith; that of God as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One substance, three persons but each person is God. Christians believe Jesus is God. Jews and Muslims don't. Their understanding of God is unitarian. Also in fact, traditionally, Judaism has viewed Jesus as a false messiah.

So your comment that Jews and Muslims should be happy to celebrate a holiday in honour of their imaginary friend because they all believe in this same entity is like saying to a Jewish person or Muslim that they should accept Jesus as God as well. Not to mention calling their god imaginary and I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim found that both as ignorant and offensive.

When did I suggest they should celebrate xmas, just that people shouldn't be so afraid of offending others that they piss all over their own customs to avoid causing offence.

I try to even it out by being offensive to each and every tradition, I don't discriminate