New Cam Chain Tensioner before valves?

[headshrink]

I need to get my valves done (by dealer), and put in a new cam chain tensioner (self). Is there any benefit in putting in the CCT prior to the dealer work, or vice versa?

[backinthesaddleagain]

Bob, why a new CCT?

[2WheelGuy]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Bob, why a new CCT?

+1

If it needs a new CCT put it in. If it doesn't, why? The 08+ CCT seems like a pretty good piece.

[headshrink]

That is a reasonable question.
I get the "ticking" that is easily heard at low-ish RPM. Thinking at first it was valves, and many searches later, understand that on the 08+ valve train redesign, the ticking doesn't come from loose valve, since ours tighten. As far as I can tell from my reading, the CCT is the culprit. The sound does SEEM to be coming from its general direction.

If I am missing something PLEASE let me know.

[2WheelGuy]

You are correct that a bad CCT will make a noise that sounds like loose valve adjustment. A simple way to tell if it is the CCT is to remove the valve cover and check the tension of the cam chain between the cam sprockets. Turn the crank and if the chain goes loose under the top tensioner you've got a bad CCT.

The dealer will have to remove the CCT to do the valve adjustment. Unless all the valves are in spec. (unlikely and even if they are most dealers will charge you for the adjustment anyway). So if the CCT is bad the swap can be done then.

It is really easy to swap the CCT but you do need a special tool. I made one out of an old stubby screwdriver. I ground down the blade to fit.

If there is a problem with the OEM CCT you might want to change it for an aftermarket tensioner. APE makes great products, I installed one of their manual tensioners on my 1998 GSXR750 which is know for having tensioner problems.


http://zxzone.com/sprockets.html

I haven't heard of problems with the 2008+ 250 tensioners. Has anyone? It looks like a nice piece. Much better design then on the older models.

[headshrink]

Thanks for the info. I am pretty sure my valves do need an actual adjustment, because at my 7.5K mile service the dealer said they were still in spec.... but just barely. I am at my 15K mile service. I don't remember hearing the clicking back then. Maybe what I will do, since they will have it open, is just have them note if the CCT needs replacement. I don't really want to pay them to do something that looks so quick and easy. The 2008 Service Manual doesn't indicate a special tool is needed, so maybe this is one of the changes.

I think my original question stemmed more from wondering if there might be some minor effect on timing if I did the CCT after the dealer did his thing, although I don't think I adequately articulated that. I've been learning a lot over the past 2 years, but am still an intermediate-beginner weekend-warrior type with the wrench

[Momaru]

FWIW, I just had to replace the CCT on my '08. Couldn't feel the difference in compression strength, but the new one definitely keeps the chain tighter rolling the cams over and it's quieter.
Did it while checking valves and other things.
There is a somewhat special tool needed to keep the thing compressed while you install it (check the bottom right of the page of the FSM that talks about replacing the CCT, the things's T-shaped and there are measurements). I wound up using an old file I had, but the OEM replacement (at least the one I got) comes with the tool in there keeping it compressed.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Momaru

There is a somewhat special tool needed to keep the thing compressed while you install it (check the bottom right of the page of the FSM that talks about replacing the CCT, the things's T-shaped and there are measurements). I wound up using an old file I had, but the OEM replacement (at least the one I got) comes with the tool in there keeping it compressed.

Good to know. I must have missed it last night when I checked.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by 2WheelGuy

You are correct that a bad CCT will make a noise that sounds like loose valve adjustment. A simple way to tell if it is the CCT is to remove the valve cover and check the tension of the cam chain between the cam sprockets. Turn the crank and if the chain goes loose under the top tensioner you've got a bad CCT.

The dealer will have to remove the CCT to do the valve adjustment. Unless all the valves are in spec. (unlikely and even if they are most dealers will charge you for the adjustment anyway). So if the CCT is bad the swap can be done then.

It is really easy to swap the CCT but you do need a special tool. I made one out of an old stubby screwdriver. I ground down the blade to fit.

If there is a problem with the OEM CCT you might want to change it for an aftermarket tensioner. APE makes great products, I installed one of their manual tensioners on my 1998 GSXR750 which is know for having tensioner problems.


http://zxzone.com/sprockets.html

I haven't heard of problems with the 2008+ 250 tensioners. Has anyone? It looks like a nice piece. Much better design then on the older models.

I use one of these from ARP it is great . One thing though,the roll pin that holds the end nut on fell out. Not a big deal .I just threaded the end bolt down as a jam nut . Then when ever I take it apart I just remove the two 8mm bolts .

I like having a double jam nut . Seems more secure.

[headshrink]

Does the OEM CCT come with the O ring, or does this need to be ordered separately?

[randomwalk101]

Have picture of that cct tool?
Posted via Mobile Device

[headshrink]

I ordered the part, but than I started thinking.... wonder if it is covered under warranty? Oh well.

[Racer x]

The OEM CCT uses a gasket

[Momaru]

Been away a few days.

The CCT does NOT come with the o-ring, but mine came off quite cleanly and was re-used.

Will toss up pics of the tool when I get home. I tried to make my own out of 16guage steel sheeting per the FSM specs, but it was too thick and too small for me to grind thinner without destroying.

[Momaru]

Promised pics of the OEM CCT tool. Took me a few minutes to find it, even with the big ol' piece of tape I put it in to make it easier:
DSC04846.jpg
Measurements from pg 5-15 of the FSM

DSC04845.jpg
DSC04843.jpg
It's about 1mm thick

Obviously it's longer than the FSM specifies, but it works.

[headshrink]

Momaru: Just to make sure I am tracking with you.... this tool was actually included with the OEM CCT replacement assembly?

[Momaru]

Correct. The tool was already in the replacement CCT when I pulled it out of the box, maintaining the push rod in its compressed state (thus ready for immediate installation). The box that the OEM CCT replacement came in was about 2" on a side, too small for the CCT to be fully extended.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Momaru

Correct. The tool was already in the replacement CCT when I pulled it out of the box, maintaining the push rod in its compressed state (thus ready for immediate installation). The box that the OEM CCT replacement came in was about 2" on a side, too small for the CCT to be fully extended.

EXCELLENT!!! I don't know why we are talking about making it then, or grinding down screwdrivers if it is included. It is interesting the SM doesn't indicate this, and also that it tells you how to tension it.... if you don't really have to.

So, pop it in, bold it down and pull the the tool out? Can't get much easier than that! I think I feel a new illustrated DIY Wiki coming soon

[Momaru]

Well, to re-shim the valves when they need adjustment (as well as do just about anything else deeper in the engine than the cams), you have to pull the CCT whether it's faulty or not. Thus one wouldn't necessarily have the tool on hand from a replacement CCT, hence the specs in the FSM.

Originally Posted by headshrink

So, pop it in, bold it down and pull the the tool out? Can't get much easier than that! I think I feel a new illustrated DIY Wiki coming soon

Pretty much, yep! Make sure to get the gasket in there and there may be some importance on which way the CCT faces; the yeagergroup site says something about putting the blue dot and the #2 marking facing towards the inside of the bike (towards engine centerline, not towards outside). I didn't notice any asymmetry other than those marking externally, but figured it shouldn't hurt to install the new one like the old...

And FWIW, replacing the CCT is 5x harder with Shogun frame slider bars in place...

[headshrink]

Upon returning home today, after doing a bit of work on my bike over the last few days, I noticed evidence of a leak on the engine. Fearing it was the cylinder cover gasket, I stripped the fairings for closer inspection... I believe I found the culprit. The threads at the back of my day-old cam chain tensioner, where it holds the cap bolt, were stripped! I torqued to the recommended rating, 44 in-lbs I think. What a pisser, that thing wasn't cheap either!!!

[Momaru]

44in-lbs is right. Oye ve, you're sure having a pisser of a time with this maintenance interval Bob. Sorry it's giving you so much grief, but you're getting a lot of education on how things can go wrong.

I assume you're sure it's stripped threads and not just a mis-aligned o-ring. Any chance you could re-tap the threads a tidbit larger and step up a bolt size? There's probably a better solution but I can't think of it atm.

[headshrink]

You're right Paul, this education is also costing almost as much as my formal education.

In theory I may be able to retap, but in looking at how it is threaded it doesn't look easy... and I would have to buy a tap set, etc. I may just get that aftermarket one if I can't get this one to work (and wouldn't you know the one I took out looks stripped too (although it didn't leak)!!!

So in frustration, I removed the little O ring, because it doesn't allow that little screw to penetrate very deep, and whipped out the RTV gray silicone sealant - that should hold the F*****!