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Old December 4th, 2018, 12:34 PM   #1
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Intermittent idle woes, single click sound RPM drop

Purchased this used 2009 Ninja 250r with 41000km in September.

Previous owner has records to show the following work was done in

June: Oil change, carb clean, Seafoam, sparkplug change

Symptoms:

Scenario 1: At stop, first gear, clutch in at a redlight I will sometimes hear/feel a 'CLICK' then see the RPM drop below 1k in 2 increments ('CLICK', RPM drop, RPM drop, then RPM raise back up). Ambient temperature: ~5-7C

Scenario 2: After a ride, I decided to continue to idle my bike in my garage to see if the problem came back. First gear, clutch in. I hear a CLICK, RPM drop, RPM drop, dies.

Work done since symptoms: Replace with OEM CCT (original CCT was worn and continuous clicking sounds happening when rolling off throttle to stop), replace with manual CCT, idle knob adjusted after a ride

Does anybody have any ideas on what may be wrong?
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Old December 4th, 2018, 12:34 PM   #2
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Intermittent idle woes, single click sound RPM drop

Purchased this used 2009 Ninja 250r with 41000km in September.

Previous owner has records to show the following work was done in

June: Oil change, carb clean, Seafoam, sparkplug change

Symptoms:

Scenario 1: At stop, first gear, clutch in at a redlight I will sometimes hear/feel a 'CLICK' then see the RPM drop below 1k in 2 increments ('CLICK', RPM drop, RPM drop, then RPM raise back up). Ambient temperature: ~5-7C

Scenario 2: After a ride, I decided to continue to idle my bike in my garage to see if the problem came back. First gear, clutch in. I hear a CLICK, RPM drop, RPM drop, dies.

Work done since symptoms: Replace with OEM CCT (original CCT was worn and continuous clicking sounds happening when rolling off throttle to stop), replace with manual CCT, idle knob adjusted after a ride

Does anybody have any ideas on what may be wrong?
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Old December 4th, 2018, 01:20 PM   #3
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keyboard diagnosis...sure sounds like a cylinder is intermittently dropping on and off (spark/ignition issue)
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Old December 4th, 2018, 02:30 PM   #4
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Can you locate where the noise is coming from?

As suggested, look for an ignition or electrical issue.

Check the plugs, plug wires, and plug caps.
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Old December 4th, 2018, 02:30 PM   #5
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CCT not locked in place?
Chain tension incorrect?
Worn chain? Did you measure?
Worn cam gears?
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Old December 4th, 2018, 08:46 PM   #6
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The CCT was installed by a mechanic, he also did a compression test and said it was all good. Here is a video of some hanging RPM after blipping the throttle

https://streamable.com/lh5i7
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Old December 5th, 2018, 07:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistified View Post
The CCT was installed by a mechanic, he also did a compression test and said it was all good. Here is a video of some hanging RPM after blipping the throttle

https://streamable.com/lh5i7
That's typical of a lean mixture.

If someone knew what they were doing when cleaning the carbs they would have removed the caps over the idle mixture screws. This allows you to make fine adjustments to the mixture to compensate for changes in temp and other factors.

If they didn't remove them they didn't clean the passages, so it means they didn't know what they were doing.

Normally they are set lean from the factory, and adjusting them to the optimum setting (normally in the range of 2.5 turns out - "out" is richer) helps smooth the idle and throttle transition.

Here's some info about it - https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake - topics #6 and #7.

As Danno suggested, you might want to take a look at the adjustment of the manual CCT. It's easy to apply too much pressure. Check the manufacturers web site for the proper procedure.
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Old December 6th, 2018, 03:15 PM   #8
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Idle mixture screw caps have been removed already. I tightened the closest idle mixture screw (left side) down then backed out 3 turns. Far (right) idle mixture screw seems to be at the same position (I assume you must reach this screw from the left side? Trying to go in from right side there is a lot of hardware blocking).

Another scenario: Idle when bike is on side stand is ~1300RPM, when I raise it off the side stand it goes up to 2000 then back down when I put it back on side stand. In the video you can also hear the 'CLICK' and drop in RPM below 1000

https://streamable.com/vn3rd

Also when I'm at 2000 RPM, and I close the throttle by pushing it further, it seems to drop down. However when I look at the carbs throttle cable, there already seems to be slack just releasing the throttle. Continuing to close the throttle manually just looks like its giving it more slack. Could this be a cable problem?
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Old December 7th, 2018, 06:24 AM   #9
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Have the valves been adjusted?

Carbs synced?

I'm leaning towards some carb-related issue.

I didn't hear a distinct "click".
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Old December 7th, 2018, 09:19 AM   #10
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Could this be yet another petcock/vac leak issue? Very similar to the "carb frustration, arghhh" thread?

Note his idle is all over the place, too. And with fuel present in the vac line, a documented petcock diaphragm issue.

Op here may want to take a good look, perform a test , his option whether petcock on or off the bike.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 09:52 AM   #11
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Can you elaborate on what to do with the petcock? It may be the problem since I sometimes smell a strong odor of gas at red lights (but read that gas smell is normal on a ninja so thought nothing of it). Previous owner also mentioned how her fuel gauge was sometimes wonky.

I believe the petcock position is currently ON, do I diagnose with PRIME?
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Old December 7th, 2018, 11:53 AM   #12
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I disagree a strong odor of gas to be "normal". Not at all.

Petcock on the bike, in On position. (note you must have ample fuel, obviously over the level of the pickup tube)

First...if you pull the vac line on top of left carb....any presence of fuel or any dripping? If so...no good.

Next, pull the fuel line from the carb....needless to say, have a catchcan, rags and such to cleanup...no need to elaborate, it may get messy, so be prepared. Simple common sense applies.

Your fuel line is now removed from the carb, after the initial drip....does dripping continue unabated? If so...no good.

Now providing a vacuum source to the vacuum line...fuel should flow from the fuel line (be prepped...use your catchcan!) . When vac source is removed...the fuel line should no longer flow at all (after the residual fuel has stopped dripping)

Don't become a petcock sucker...get one o' these to provide a vac source...go easy...very little needed to actuate the diaphragm valve

Recommend you read that other thread too. @DannoXYZ left a link to petcock rebuild...may help you envision what you are doing.

Flow testing can be done, petcock removed, on the bench, too. Using appropriate sized diameter hose (and length to whatever you choose) on fuel and vac lines,
Blowing INTO the fuel line should be absolutely no air flow...UNTIL you provide vac to the vac side, should then allow your bad breath to pass into (and through) the petcock...remove the vac source again to verify no air flow through fuel line.

Bench testing only takes a moment...no need to become scientific or fancy. Its simply go/no go.

The rest up to you...good luck with it, go get 'em.
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Last futzed with by ducatiman; December 7th, 2018 at 12:21 PM. Reason: added info
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Old December 7th, 2018, 01:25 PM   #13
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Yep!

I agree, sounds like your bike is experiencing the same symptoms my bike has. Take a peep at my post and the responses. Looks like the problem has been isolated to a bad petcock (diaphragm).

I should be able to install a new one this weekend and will post my results.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=326499

Hope this saves you some time & frustration.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 06:15 PM   #14
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With any luck, both of you will find final solution with this.

Note that even after petcock repair, its possible further tuning on synch and pilot screws may be called for to nail it down.

I recently "woke up" a neighbors '07 250 (bike sat for years) with a similar wandering idle....simple fine tuning of the carbs (after assuring the circuits were clear and doing careful setup) was the final solution. In this instance NOT petcock related.

Can be frustrating but we've got to eliminate possibilities one by one, especially via keyboard. Difficult not "being there".
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Old December 8th, 2018, 06:26 AM   #15
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I heard the click sound. It was almost a clunk, and immediately the RPM dropped below 1,000. I don't know what's happening, but I'm pretty certain you'll find out one way or another. Carbs don't make clicking sounds, nor do petcocks.
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Old December 8th, 2018, 07:26 AM   #16
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Always a process of elimination.

Eliminate the petcock next and go forward from there says I.

Suggested earlier in the thread...have you first examined and eliminated spark plugs/caps, wires, coil connections?....the electrical end of things? Check for presence of adequate spark? I'm noting that other than questioning and posting some videos, you are offering no feedback as far as acting on any suggestions made here in the thread.
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Old December 8th, 2018, 11:51 AM   #17
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Currently in exam season, when they are done I’ll be doing a tear down after I’ve accumulated some tools. This will be my first time wrenching on a bike. It’ll be a slow process since I’ll be doing this in my strata parking garage so I can’t leave parts lying around over night.
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Old December 8th, 2018, 06:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistified View Post
Also when I'm at 2000 RPM, and I close the throttle by pushing it further, it seems to drop down. However when I look at the carbs throttle cable, there already seems to be slack just releasing the throttle. Continuing to close the throttle manually just looks like its giving it more slack. Could this be a cable problem?
My bike does this in cold too, 5C or so. I let it warm up on choke, then as I move it around, idle-speed goes up & down without touching throttle. I have left-hand on left-bar and right-hand on pillion-seat to push it around. I suspect the varying idle-speed has to do with fuel sloshing around in float-bowls.
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Old December 17th, 2018, 09:24 PM   #19
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Got around to pulling the gas tank, the petcock seemed good:
1. Pulled fuel hose from petcock, fuel initially came out then stopped. No dripping from petcock.
2. Pulled vacuum hose from petcock, no drips. While trying to pull the vacuum hose, I accidentally squeezed the hose (creating a vacuum) and fuel came out of the pet cock fuel nipple. When I stopped squeezing, nipple stopped flowing fuel.
3. Placed gas tank on two tissue boxes, no dripping from petcock

Pulled sparkplugs, a little white residue on it indicating lean condition.

Now I am waiting for stage 2 rejet kit then I will pull carbs to clean and rejet. I also noticed some rips on the valve cover gasket, will replace that when I do the valve adjustment after carb clean + rejet
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Old December 30th, 2018, 05:02 PM   #20
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Old December 31st, 2018, 04:34 PM   #21
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isn't this a duplicate thread? I'm having deja vu. Sure is, showing 17 replies too.
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Old January 1st, 2019, 07:15 AM   #22
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isn't this a duplicate thread? I'm having deja vu. Sure is, showing 17 replies too.
Yes - deja vu all over again.

Here is the other - https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328421
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Old January 1st, 2019, 09:41 AM   #23
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may be too late, but i'd dissuade against jetting until you nail down the issue. You are complicating the diagnosis path by doing too much at once.

When you set the idle screws to 3 turns each side....was that with bike idling, fully warmed to achieve highest RPM?

Have you actually syched the carbs with a pro manometer?

When someone cleaned your carbs, did they have possession of the bike or just the carbs?

Did the wandering idle/noise come immediately right after the carb work?

Did the bike ever run properly under your possession?
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Old January 1st, 2019, 12:14 PM   #24
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Old January 1st, 2019, 02:41 PM   #25
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may be too late, but i'd dissuade against jetting until you nail down the issue. You are complicating the diagnosis path by doing too much at once.
Yes, absolutely. Find out what the clunk and RPM drop is caused by and fix it before making any other changes.
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Old January 1st, 2019, 05:08 PM   #26
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Gosh just thought of something... Could cams be loose?
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Old January 19th, 2019, 02:59 AM   #27
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UPDATE: https://streamable.com/gmwv4

I finally got the carbs out, took it a part and it was clean. BUT, the idle mixture screws were ridiculously backed out, something like 5 or 6 turns. I reset them to 2.5 turns out.
Does this mean at idle I was running very rich, thus the occasional bog at idle?

I also replaced the main jets, pilot jets, and shimmed the needle with this kit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-12-Kawas...72.m2749.l2649

(2 one size larger Pilot Jets (#40), a set of 2 two sizes large Main Jets (#102) and one needle shim for each carburetor)

The original jets were clean, I could see through the holes, but were a little darkened at the tips.

Exhaust was also changed to a slip-on leo vince

Looks like my lean spot at 2k rpm is almost gone and idles nicely; took it out tonight and it performed flawlessly. I still get quite a bit of pop, and backfire flames when I abruptly close the throttle. Normal or should I back out the idle mixture screws again to 3 turns.
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Old January 19th, 2019, 08:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistified View Post
UPDATE: https://streamable.com/gmwv4

I finally got the carbs out, took it a part and it was clean. BUT, the idle mixture screws were ridiculously backed out, something like 5 or 6 turns. I reset them to 2.5 turns out.
Does this mean at idle I was running very rich, thus the occasional bog at idle?

I also replaced the main jets, pilot jets, and shimmed the needle with this kit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-12-Kawas...72.m2749.l2649

(2 one size larger Pilot Jets (#40), a set of 2 two sizes large Main Jets (#102) and one needle shim for each carburetor)

The original jets were clean, I could see through the holes, but were a little darkened at the tips.

Exhaust was also changed to a slip-on leo vince

Looks like my lean spot at 2k rpm is almost gone and idles nicely; took it out tonight and it performed flawlessly. I still get quite a bit of pop, and backfire flames when I abruptly close the throttle. Normal or should I back out the idle mixture screws again to 3 turns.
It's gonna be plenty rich with 40 Pilots and 102 Mains most likely. What do you have for air filters?

With the 40 Pilot jets you would want to be farther IN than the normal 2.5 turns out.

Think in terms of throttle position (1/8, 1/4, 1/2, etc) in addition to RPMs when diagnosing carbs issues. The position of the throttle is more important than the RPMs.

Something still isn't right, you shouldn't get any flames out of the exhaust at any time. I'd say you need to check the valve adjustment and everything else related to valve timing. An exhaust valve may be hanging open - or something like that.

What do the plugs look like?
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Old January 19th, 2019, 09:37 AM   #29
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coast-enricher is clogged
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Old January 19th, 2019, 10:29 AM   #30
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coast-enricher is clogged
Or like one of mine, someone took enricher apart and didn't put the gasket back in when reassembled.
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Old January 20th, 2019, 01:25 PM   #31
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Idle and low end power suddenly got worse today. Low rpms with slight throttle bogs down the bike then it shoots back up to normal power when rpms get higher to around 2k. Bike can’t idle consistently below 1.5k rpm. Carbs are coming out to retighten my jets, I think it may have gotten loose?

While the carbs are out I will take a look at the coast enricher (what should I look for?) and turn the pilot jets further in (stock or 2 turns?) I have stock airbox but plan to do the snorkel and Kleen delete
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Old January 20th, 2019, 03:40 PM   #32
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Took out the carbs, relighted the jets, set idle mixture screws at 2 turns.

Same problem, can’t idle under 1500. When I rev it, it will stay at a 1300 rpm then drop down.

With the screws at 2 turns the rpms drop slower back to idle
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Old January 20th, 2019, 05:26 PM   #33
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I've never used 40 Pilots, so I'm not positive, but I think you are still too rich at 2 turns out. You may be closer to 1 turn out with the larger Pilots and a stock airbox. You can also pull the air filter out and see if it makes it run better - which would tell you it's rich for one reason or another. Also confirm the enricher is working properly.

Check for vacuum leaks and sync the carbs.

If that doesn't do anything good, I'd for sure look at the plugs for clues.
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Old January 20th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #34
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
One problem was set-up was too rich with too much fuel at idle. Then you make it worse by adding even more fuel.

The reason original owner added so much fuel was because carbs are clogged. Newbies always think more fuel is solution, and it may work temporarily. But clogged carbs gets worse and worse. It may idle, but won’t rev, or vice versa.

Real solution is not to add more fuel, but to clean carbs and restore to factory-fresh condition with all factory jetting. Bike ran perfectly fine from factory, so no reason it won’t if carbs are refurbed back to factory-fresh condition as it left dealer floor. Search for “clean carbs ducatiman” for numerous other cases like yours.
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Old January 20th, 2019, 08:07 PM   #35
mistified
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How do I know the enricher is working properly? I took out the cover and the small hole hidden by the cover was clear. The black gasket/diaphram looks intact along with the white plastic and brass centre piece. Spring also seemed fine. How do I inspect the 2 hoses for clogging along the top of the enricher?
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Old January 20th, 2019, 10:11 PM   #36
DannoXYZ
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Does diaphragm move when you apply vacuum?
If seal's not working, diaphragm won't move either. Or hold vacuum
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Old January 21st, 2019, 03:58 PM   #37
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Pulled the plugs: Slightly white. Gap still correct when I put them in at 0.035 inches


Pulled the carbs, noticed some black residue nearby the holes. Should I scrub these clean or just blast carb cleaner through the holes? I blasted one of the carbs and dislodged a black gunk, maybe that was the culprit




I also pulled the fuel intake hose to check the filter and it was clean
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Old January 22nd, 2019, 01:41 PM   #38
mistified
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Still a rough idle, can stay around 1300 sometimes, but when it drops, it drops below 1000 until I slightly blip the throttle up. This is really confusing, I've taken the carbs out 3 times now.

I'm going to check for vacuum leaks along the intake boots by spraying some WD40 or carb cleaner them
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