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Old July 30th, 2012, 09:04 AM   #81
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the snorkel moves the intake point higher and farther back into the tail. its to help keep water out of the intake. it is slightly restrictive but it also helps smooth the direction of the air and creates less turbulence. i might be wrong but i think the net effect of the snorkel make the bike slightly leaner... you said it runs betteer with it in... so put in a smaller main jet.

www.jetsrus.com

i order from these guys a lot... i even have their stickers on my bike! lol
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Old July 30th, 2012, 10:14 AM   #82
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The snorkel meters the airflow for the low and midrange as well as smooths the air entering into the box so that it resonates softer. It's designed for better fuel consumption/HP in the midrange. The airbox alone is more than capable to flow enough air for the cylinder size of the bike and has little or no effect on peak hp at high rpms (providing the jetting is correct).

Shimming means more fuel, more fuel demands more air. That's why the bike responds better when you shim and remove the snorkel.



A little something to read about airboxes- http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html

"Whenever air flows past something, like the walls of the inlet snorkel, the air touching the walls will stick to the walls and not flow. The air very close to the stuck air will flow, but sluggishly because the nearby air isn't moving. Thus there will be a region of air right next to the tube walls which does not flow easily. This area is called the Poisson stagnation region, named after the French physicist who first described it mathematically. The faster you try to flow air through the tube, the thicker the stagnation region gets. In a narrow tube at extremely high flow rates, the stagnation regions can grow to pretty much fill the tube and the flow through the tube can get slowed quite dramatically."

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Old July 30th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #83
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side note- this is why intakes are not smooth or polished. the smoother it is, the higher the poisson effect in the intakes after the carbs, the more pooling of gas on the side walls. think of the dimples on a golf ball
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Old July 30th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBlue1 View Post
The snorkel meters the airflow for the low and midrange as well as smooths the air entering into the box so that it resonates softer. It's designed for better fuel consumption/HP in the midrange. The airbox alone is more than capable to flow enough air for the cylinder size of the bike and has little or no effect on peak hp at high rpms (providing the jetting is correct).

Shimming means more fuel, more fuel demands more air. That's why the bike responds better when you shim and remove the snorkel.



A little something to read about airboxes-http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html

"Whenever air flows past something, like the walls of the inlet snorkel, the air touching the walls will stick to the walls and not flow. The air very close to the stuck air will flow, but sluggishly because the nearby air isn't moving. Thus there will be a region of air right next to the tube walls which does not flow easily. This area is called the Poisson stagnation region, named after the French physicist who first described it mathematically. The faster you try to flow air through the tube, the thicker the stagnation region gets. In a narrow tube at extremely high flow rates, the stagnation regions can grow to pretty much fill the tube and the flow through the tube can get slowed quite dramatically."
i think he said that it runs better with the snorkel in.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 01:04 PM   #85
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i think he said that it runs better with the snorkel in.
Yeah, he did. That's because he has not shimmed this time around. He had shimmed before.
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Old July 30th, 2012, 01:06 PM   #86
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oh he took put the needle back to stock? didnt see that
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Old August 1st, 2012, 06:40 PM   #87
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I fixed the issues with the bike as far as i know, bad spark plugs and still had some of that seafoam blocking some holes in the carb as it seems.I actually have the sportisi needles on the 2nd clip, stock mains and with the snorkel in atm abd the bike runs great.

Thinking tho that i will remove the snorkel now. so by essense you are "leaning" out the bike with the snorkel out to increase the rate of air flow (removing resistance from the snorkel)

It also says that: So it counter-dicks itself...
"The idea that the snorkel makes for a significant impediment to air flow into the engine is questionable at best. Removing the snorkel from your air box is the exact same thing as removing the port in your speakers, the tube that's carefully engineered to have just the right diameter and length to reinforce the bass on your speakers at low frequencies. By altering your air box in any significant fashion, you're most likely going to cost yourself three to five hp in the mid range, and gain nothing measurable at high rpms.
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Old August 1st, 2012, 06:51 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
side note- this is why intakes are not smooth or polished. the smoother it is, the higher the poisson effect in the intakes after the carbs, the more pooling of gas on the side walls. think of the dimples on a golf ball
question, why do people port and polish then? Wouldn't the polishing impede the airflow to the intake valves by increasing the Poisson effect?
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 12:54 AM   #89
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I'm wrong, but you polish the exhaust and port the intake and valves
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Old August 18th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #90
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Ok, I FIXED my bike. Changed the sparkplugs and cleaned out the carbs for the 30th time and BAMM bike ran like new. bad plugs I guess

Thanks for all that helped with the problem expecially Blue and Alex!

I got the dyno charts and will post once i get em exported over, From 22hp I am at 28.42hp!
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Old August 18th, 2012, 12:44 PM   #91
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Ok, I FIXED my bike. Changed the sparkplugs and cleaned out the carbs for the 30th time and BAMM bike ran like new. bad plugs I guess

Thanks for all that helped with the problem expecially Blue and Alex!

I got the dyno charts and will post once i get em exported over, From 22hp I am at 28.42hp!
Dang.
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Old August 18th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #92
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congratulations matthew

its very rewarding when you finally feel what its supposed to be like huh
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Old August 18th, 2012, 01:33 PM   #93
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yah, it feels way better then stock and only need choke for about 5secs. lol before it was like 30secs. power in excel was better now finally
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Old August 18th, 2012, 01:35 PM   #94
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i saw your post in the jetting DB. just a thought (you might not want to touch it anymore after working on it so long) but if you lower your needle one slot it should take care of your rich spot at 8k
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Old February 13th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #95
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Hi everyone, I was hoping I could run my scenario by you and see if someone could help me out here.
Removed the kleen air system
Removed airbox and installed K&N pod filter
Full area P Exhaust, and the dynojet kit from area P for the removed airbox and pod filter.
Bike currently has 108 jets in the main, I believe the pilot jets are stock size.
screws are three turns out
The bike runs like an absolute raped ape on the top end, and has fantastic pull on the lower end.
Here's my dilemna... When riding around (approx. 7-8k) for a few minutes, the big sounds like it begins to gurgle almost, shortly after the motor will start dying, and eventually shutoff. It only takes a minute of letting the bike rest and then it fires right back up. I was under the impression I was running rich, and the bike was just getting loaded up, however there wasn't much of that flooded gasoline smell. The other odd thing, was when I went to start it after it died it would fire up sooner if I put the choke on, so now I'm thinking maybe I'm running lean?
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #96
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Hi everyone, I was hoping I could run my scenario by you and see if someone could help me out here.
Removed the kleen air system
Removed airbox and installed K&N pod filter
Full area P Exhaust, and the dynojet kit from area P for the removed airbox and pod filter.
Bike currently has 108 jets in the main, I believe the pilot jets are stock size.
screws are three turns out
The bike runs like an absolute raped ape on the top end, and has fantastic pull on the lower end.
Here's my dilemna... When riding around (approx. 7-8k) for a few minutes, the big sounds like it begins to gurgle almost, shortly after the motor will start dying, and eventually shutoff. It only takes a minute of letting the bike rest and then it fires right back up. I was under the impression I was running rich, and the bike was just getting loaded up, however there wasn't much of that flooded gasoline smell. The other odd thing, was when I went to start it after it died it would fire up sooner if I put the choke on, so now I'm thinking maybe I'm running lean?
Have you tried raising the needles?
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:21 AM   #97
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Go up a size on the pilot and down a size or two on mains
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Old February 14th, 2013, 01:39 PM   #98
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Have you tried raising the needles?
I'll give it a try this weekend, Carbs are so much easier to get to after removing that airbox...
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Old February 14th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #99
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Go up a size on the pilot and down a size or two on mains
Thank you for the tip, Do you think I should do this in conjunction with raising the needles?
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Old February 14th, 2013, 06:29 PM   #100
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One change at a time.

The idea is to only change one variable so you can pin-point which change had what effect on the bike. Changing multiple things at once makes that very hard because all the parts of the carb work together.
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Old October 2nd, 2021, 03:32 AM   #101
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after reading all this I have to ask.... SERIOUSLY ?????
unless you've done some major engine change like bore size or stroke length
you Never change the needle clip ! or main jet size....
the carb is designed to give you a 14:1 ratio of fuel throughout the rev range
it's a work of art.... if your having problems in the mid range then more than likely the carb is dirty and changing the clip position on the needle is only going to confuse the issue
...
Ok granted, if you change the exhaust you Might have to change the main jet
a little.... or if you screwed up the airbox....
but even if you change the main jet you leave the clip on the jet needle where it was.... don't change it or you will screw up mid range !....
....
I can't count how many times I got a bike in that didn't run right and the guy tried fixing it himself and made it worse... one of the first things a fella will do is change the jet needle clip position from stock and in my book that is a big NO-NO
....
the carb is designed to keep the 14:1 f/a ratio correct at mid range RPM
moving the clip will change that to either direction away from 14:1 something you do not want to do.... unless you've determined that it is indeed running lean or too rich in mid range.... then of course you have the option of moving the clip ..... but to go so far as to need shims under the needle clip Something is majorly wrong !
and what that usually is , is needing larger carburetors ! for more volume
trying to get too much volume out of a small carburetor always leads to headaches the ratios start going out the window because the carb was not designed to process that much volume !
......
and yes Most engines can use larger carburetors straight from stock and develop more HP.... put on larger carbs, change the exhaust and change the air filters and your in like flynn
.... OR you can try to tune the stock engine to the most optimum setting using the stock set up.... which was done here... but there is only so much you can do..... if you change the exhaust you change how much the engine can breath out, that's all, just breath out, it did nothing for the breathe in part, so if you change that too now you have the carburetors to deal with.
change the mains change the pilot jets all you want but leave the jet needles alone ! and you'll be alot better off ! believe me !
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Old October 2nd, 2021, 11:07 PM   #102
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Yes, factory 98 main jet is more than enough. There's absolutely zero reason to ever increase them. The entire jetting DB is complete bollocks because there's no before and after dyno-charts with AFR to really compare effects of jetting changes. And there's no testing controls, meaning there's other variables besides jetting changes that's affecting results.

For example, most complaints of poor running and stumbling with stock jetting was not properly troubloshooted and issues positively identified. Stock bike with stock jetting runs perfectly smooth and well-behaved. What happened between when bike left showroom floor running awesome to now when they complain about poor running? Jets are metal and simply cannot change sizes over time, much less get smaller in size to cause lean conditions.

So what can possibly happen to carbs that would cause them to run lean? They're dirty! From lack of riding and lack of maintenance! So now you've two variables affecting results for cartesian-product of four possible combinations:

1. clean carbs + stock jets
2. clean carbs + larger jets
3. dirty carbs + stock jets
4. dirty carbs + larger jets

So rather than going from #3 back to #1 by properly cleaning carbs to restore factory showroom running condition, they take lazy way and just pop in larger jets (#4) to make up for clogged and dirty petrol passages with blocked bleed holes.

So with more fuel, bike runs better! Wow, problems was jets were too small right? NO!!! Real problem was never identified and fixed, dirty carbs! Problem with upsizing jets to make up for dirty carbs is that it's only temporary fix. Deposits in hidden secret passages will just gather and accumulate even more varnish and grime and in couple months, bike will start stumbling and running badly again!

In stock trim, bike runs slightly rich in mid-range at 13:1 AFR. In high-end, it's super-rich at 10-12:1. Leaves some power on table (remember that '60s hot-rod saying!). This rich mixture is intentional by all OEM manufacturers for safety in case you encountre bad gas in boondocks, or have super-hot day; or.... you let carbs get dirty & clogged! Even 250 EFI model has similar AFR curve to carb model below.



Here's what happened to brand-new plugs on my bone-stock 2009 new-gen street bike vs. my 2008 new-gen race-bike after 20-minutes on track each (same day).



Factory super-rich mixture fouls plugs right away on street bike. Track-bike is much more optimal and has upgrades:
- free-flow intake with K&N filter and snorkel removal
- full Tyga exhaust

Result is 22% more airflow than stock and 22% more power than stock. However, to get mixtures dialed-in for that extra flow on dyno, my sponsor used 94 main jets that are two sizes smaller than stock!!! And mixtures were still slightly too rich!

So running lean is never problem on these bikes from having too-small jets, it's because carbs are dirty and clogged. Not easy to clean them to factory-fresh condition either.

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Old October 2nd, 2021, 11:28 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwollam View Post
Here's my dilemna... When riding around (approx. 7-8k) for a few minutes, the big sounds like it begins to gurgle almost, shortly after the motor will start dying, and eventually shutoff. It only takes a minute of letting the bike rest and then it fires right back up. I was under the impression I was running rich, and the bike was just getting loaded up, however there wasn't much of that flooded gasoline smell. The other odd thing, was when I went to start it after it died it would fire up sooner if I put the choke on, so now I'm thinking maybe I'm running lean?
BTW, this problem is most likely dirty & clogged petcock that needs rebuild. It gets varnished and dirty just like carbs.

Clue is it dies after 2-3 minutes. Dirty carbs causes stumbling right away and doesn't change ove over course of single ride. Much less kill bike outright. It's petrol-flow volume issue. It takes while for full float-bowls to get depleted and kill bike. Also why letting it sit for while as float bowls fill up, allows bike to start up just fine.
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Old October 3rd, 2021, 12:01 AM   #104
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Right on Danno ! well said !
Damm I should have caught that about the petcock.... it definitely fits the symptoms !
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Old October 3rd, 2021, 12:11 AM   #105
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WOW Danno that says your way rich ! , but that is how I would want it in an air cooled bike LOL.... but the Ninja ain't air cooled !
that is a very interesting comparison.
....
do you have plans on leaning the Rich one out a bit ? or are you just going to leave it that way.... I think I would leave it rich !
the leaner one looks a bit lean for my liking, but I am used to "the perfect setting is chocolate brown" but I admit that was before water cooled bikes hit the market LOL
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Old October 3rd, 2021, 01:13 PM   #106
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Photo isn't accurate compared to what my eyes saw. Due to strong flash used, photo showed little lighter than actual. Factory bike's plugs were completely black, not dark-brown. Kinda like fouled 2T plugs, except not oily. I actually did lean out mixtures on street-bike later by going down to 94 mains with 0,75mm shim under needles.

Race-bike mixtures were still slightly rich in 12-11:1 range. That's OK as we didn't leave too much power on table compared to before. Also wanted to have some margin to work on ignition. Using non-CA pre-gen ignitor gave additional 4-degrees ignition-advance in high-end; 42-degrees compared to 38. This ended up being worth 0.5s/lap at Thunderhill, which is faster than trying to squeeze another 1hp by leaning out mixtures more.

I'm done with modding this track-bike. Not worth effort of converting to EFI to optimally control 13.5:1 pistons and 100-oct VP petrol with even more ignition on 3D-map. Probably worth another +5hp, but AFM pretty much killed off 250 class anyway. Everyone's moving to 350 or 450 classes. Ninja 400 is dominating, i want to beat those with a different 250 or 350...
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