Wanting to Tackle Canyons!

[djpharoah]

Jeff - I'd say you are no where ready to be canyon riding my friend. With only 2 months riding on a 03 ninja 250 you've got very little if none experience on the road.

I'd say wait maybe a year or two - might sound like a joy kill but on the canyon roads its pretty crazy. I've done a few canyon rides in my buddy's Mitsubishi Evo and I was driving it normally - I can't imagine doing it on a ninja 250 or even just 2 months after I started riding.

Its totally up to you man but I have seen a lot of people get hurt, maimed, amputated or killed when they have no experience or ideas on what they are doing.

I'd say gear is only part of the equation - you could have a crazy A*s full leather suit but if you don't have the experience you will crash.

Good luck and don't get confident. In my opinion (worth $0.02) I don't think you are ready but you are free to do whatever you want.

-M

[BlueTyke]

Everyone has a different learning curve. Only the rider can tell when he/she is ready. I think Jeff is taking a very smart road by seeking out mentors and people to go up there with him.

Though track days are good ideas. I have yet to do one though so I can't really say from personal experience.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by djpharoah

Jeff - I'd say you are no where ready to be canyon riding my friend. With only 2 months riding on a 03 ninja 250 you've got very little if none experience on the road.

I'd say wait maybe a year or two - might sound like a joy kill but on the canyon roads its pretty crazy. I've done a few canyon rides in my buddy's Mitsubishi Evo and I was driving it normally - I can't imagine doing it on a ninja 250 or even just 2 months after I started riding.

Its totally up to you man but I have seen a lot of people get hurt, maimed, amputated or killed when they have no experience or ideas on what they are doing.

I'd say gear is only part of the equation - you could have a crazy A*s full leather suit but if you don't have the experience you will crash.

Good luck and don't get confident. In my opinion (worth $0.02) I don't think you are ready but you are free to do whatever you want.

-M

+1

Pride always hurts. It never helps.

Be humle and know that you are not ready to tackle the canyons at this point, regardless of what your mentor thinks.

Like I wrote in my initial post, after being fully seasoned on the street and after a trackday weekend, if you feel the need to canyon ride, you will be in a better place to judge.

I do hope that you give my advice some consideration.

[Alex]

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

[ARc]

I would rep Pharoah, Alex and Purspeed for their continued concern for my safety if I could. Alas, I can only offer an IOU for now. I will take your advice seriously and when I feel more ready for it, will let you know how it goes. Purspeed, I noticed you're from Los Angeles. Which area? Maybe I can ride with you after I get more experience / go on a track day ;D

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by Alex

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

Yep...

A twisty road is not a criminal waiting to stab you in the back.

It is only what you make of it.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by ARc

I would rep Pharoah, Alex and Purspeed for their continued concern for my safety if I could. Alas, I can only offer an IOU for now. I will take your advice seriously and when I feel more ready for it, will let you know how it goes. Purspeed, I noticed you're from Los Angeles. Which area? Maybe I can ride with you after I get more experience / go on a track day ;D

Sure thing. PM me and we'll take it from there.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

I think people make "the canyons" out to be much more different than "regular riding" than they really are. We're not talking about whether or not someone should tightrope across a soccer stadium 200 feet up without a net, we're not talking about someone wanting to do his first skydive solo without a reserve, and we're not talking about someone wanting to go sharkfishing by hand.

We're talking about someone who is considering riding on a public road, likely marked at 35 mph as many of the socal canyons are, that has some twists and turns on it, but can be no more dangerous than any other type of motorcycle riding. Is riding a motorcycle absolutely safe? Nope. But believing that maneuvering in and out of traffic on city streets, or cruising down the highway are somehow much safer than other types of riding is in my opinion not supportable. Jeff - if you keep your speed in check, work hard to not surprise yourself by a turn or any other item in the road, there's no reason why you can't safely ride on just about any public road you choose. You should be confident in steering, braking, and accelerating your motorcycle, but by no means do you have to be trackday ready, you just need to have the fundamentals down and the ability to make good decisions and not panic. Sure, if you go off the road in a location that has no guard rails and a 500 foot straight drop into a rocky ravine, it's probably going to leave a mark. But do you ride off the road often when you're not next to such a ravine? As always, keep aware of traffic around you, and if you do find that you are holding someone up behind you, don't stress, but politely find the next straight or other convenient place on the road to wave them by, they'll appreciate it and so will you.

You are correct in most of what you wrote. Here is what my experience tells me: canyons, unlike roads, often contain far more road hazards (dirt, debris, animals, other riders in the wrong lane, etc.). Unfamiliar turns and roads are statistically far more risky than known local roads.

New riders, especially ones without understanding the fundamentals, tend to rate their riding skill much higher than it actually is. As a result, they get overly-confident and begin to push themselves harder. In a canyon environment, this can be a deadly combination.

The reality is that it is too easy to want to push a little harder into the next corner in the canyons.


Here is a quick test:

If you in an off-camber, decreasing radius turn and a truck is heading in the opposite direction (towards you) and heading in your lane, do you feel confident that a noob would handle this confidently?

How about a rear wheel slide? Will the noob keep on the gas or chop the throttle and highside?

[Alex]

Sorry Purspeed, not buying it. There's nothing magical about a canyon that makes riders turn into uncontrollable beasts pushing beyond their abilities until they fly off a cliff at warp speed. Of course it can happen, but it's always a choice of the carbon component at the controls.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Unfamiliar turns and roads are statistically far more risky than known local roads.

"Statistically far more risky" implies that you know of some statistics, and I'd be very interested in seeing any of them that you could share. All of the statistics I've ever seen do show that a common motorcycle accident is a rider who flubs a turn and runs wide, but nowhere in any of those statistics did I ever see where it asked the rider if they were familiar with that turn or that road before they biffed. People crash on the street in front of their house, and people crash halfway across the country. Familiarity is likely a good thing, but if people ride as if they have no control over their speed, even that familiarity can bite as people ramp up their entry speeds into a turn that they feel they know all too well.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Here is a quick test:

If you in an off-camber, decreasing radius turn and a truck is heading in the opposite direction (towards you) and heading in your lane, do you feel confident that a noob would handle this confidently?

How about a rear wheel slide? Will the noob keep on the gas or chop the throttle and highside?

What about this situation is uniquely relevant to the canyon environment? Do vehicles not drift over the yellow anywhere else? At what speed do you have to have a Ninja 250 up to before you can provoke a rear wheel slide? Does chopping the throttle on the 250 provide enough back-torque to the rear wheel to provoke a highside? (My answers: People cross lanes all the time, all riders need to be vigilant everywhere from day 1; much faster than any newbie will take the bike; and no)

I'm not suggesting or recommending that a jittery newbie force themselves into an environment that they are not ready for or they are scared of. But blanket advice that it takes a year or more before you should go on a twisty road is a bit heavy-handed and in my opinion not particularly productive. All of us learn a bit about our riding every day we're on the bike, and the way we learn is by riding in all sorts of conditions, environments, with people of differing skill levels. Personally, I was on twisty roads 2 weeks after MSF, sometimes learning from friends what was appropriate and what wasn't, and in between those rides exploring similar roads on my own.

[00v_Lucky]

Ey jeffery lets go sometime! Im in Cypress. My friend in La Palma is going to get his bike soon.

[Ken]

Jeffrey and all SoCal guys,

I posted a thread about heading up to ACH next Tues (March 17th).


http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14944

Come along!

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

Sorry Purspeed, not buying it. There's nothing magical about a canyon that makes riders turn into uncontrollable beasts pushing beyond their abilities until they fly off a cliff at warp speed. Of course it can happen, but it's always a choice of the carbon component at the controls.



"Statistically far more risky" implies that you know of some statistics, and I'd be very interested in seeing any of them that you could share. All of the statistics I've ever seen do show that a common motorcycle accident is a rider who flubs a turn and runs wide, but nowhere in any of those statistics did I ever see where it asked the rider if they were familiar with that turn or that road before they biffed. People crash on the street in front of their house, and people crash halfway across the country. Familiarity is likely a good thing, but if people ride as if they have no control over their speed, even that familiarity can bite as people ramp up their entry speeds into a turn that they feel they know all too well.



What about this situation is uniquely relevant to the canyon environment? Do vehicles not drift over the yellow anywhere else? At what speed do you have to have a Ninja 250 up to before you can provoke a rear wheel slide? Does chopping the throttle on the 250 provide enough back-torque to the rear wheel to provoke a highside? (My answers: People cross lanes all the time, all riders need to be vigilant everywhere from day 1; much faster than any newbie will take the bike; and no)

I'm not suggesting or recommending that a jittery newbie force themselves into an environment that they are not ready for or they are scared of. But blanket advice that it takes a year or more before you should go on a twisty road is a bit heavy-handed and in my opinion not particularly productive. All of us learn a bit about our riding every day we're on the bike, and the way we learn is by riding in all sorts of conditions, environments, with people of differing skill levels. Personally, I was on twisty roads 2 weeks after MSF, sometimes learning from friends what was appropriate and what wasn't, and in between those rides exploring similar roads on my own.

I respect your perspective but don't agree with it. Once a rider has about a year under their belt and a trackday, it puts them in a catagory of skills that empower them to know their limits and how to respond to the spectrum of hazards that they will encounter.

After a trackday/school, anyone will be hard pressed to disagree.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

I respect your perspective but don't agree with it. Once a rider has about a year under their belt and a trackday, it puts them in a catagory of skills that empower them to know their limits and how to respond to the spectrum of hazards that they will encounter.

After a trackday/school, anyone will be hard pressed to disagree.

I just don't think it's a simple formula. I know riders who had years of experience and thousands of miles under their belts, who go to the hills and crash on their first group ride in the twisties. And I know riders who with weeks of experience and just a few thousand miles who had the necessary skills and self-control to not only safely navigate whatever road they found themselves on (at their own pace, of course!), but enjoy themselves while doing it. Anyone on an internet forum throwing out standards like "you must be this tall to get on this ride" in the form of years of experience or miles traveled is missing the mark in both directions; overestimating the ability of some and underestimating the ability of others. Even as a general rule of thumb it's just way too broad and vague to be useful.

I don't want anyone to misinterpret my position as believing that a newer rider has already learned everything they'll ever learn on a bike. I do believe that we continuously improve our skills over a very long period of time riding motorcycles. Personally I noticed that for myself at 5,000 miles, at around 10,000 miles, and then again around 30,000 miles, before things started to plateau a bit once again. Same deal with trackdays. First couple trackdays you learn quickly, realized I was into a groove after 5 or so, felt another improvement after 15 or so, then at the 30 - 40 day level I realized that things had become easier to do the pace I was doing, I just was always going to be slower than I hoped. In both environments, it's a realization that things that used to require some amount of concentration became second nature and now don't require a moment's thought. But the most important point I can get across is that we all learn in different ways and at a different pace, and defining for someone else when they should or shouldn't ride on a certain type of public road is at best inaccurate and at worst condescending. I can't say it any clearer than that.

P.S. I do know that you mean well and have Jeff's interests at heart, and please believe that I do as well.

[BlueTyke]

I have never done a track day in my life...

Note to self: stay away from twisties/cannyons, you are not skilled enough. Bad Sunny very bad!

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by BlueTyke

I have never done a track day in my life...

Note to self: stay away from twisties/cannyons, you are not skilled enough. Bad Sunny very bad!

I have succeeded.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

I just don't think it's a simple formula. I know riders who had years of experience and thousands of miles under their belts, who go to the hills and crash on their first group ride in the twisties. And I know riders who with weeks of experience and just a few thousand miles who had the necessary skills and self-control to not only safely navigate whatever road they found themselves on (at their own pace, of course!), but enjoy themselves while doing it. Anyone on an internet forum throwing out standards like "you must be this tall to get on this ride" in the form of years of experience or miles traveled is missing the mark in both directions; overestimating the ability of some and underestimating the ability of others. Even as a general rule of thumb it's just way too broad and vague to be useful.

I don't want anyone to misinterpret my position as believing that a newer rider has already learned everything they'll ever learn on a bike. I do believe that we continuously improve our skills over a very long period of time riding motorcycles. Personally I noticed that for myself at 5,000 miles, at around 10,000 miles, and then again around 30,000 miles, before things started to plateau a bit once again. Same deal with trackdays. First couple trackdays you learn quickly, realized I was into a groove after 5 or so, felt another improvement after 15 or so, then at the 30 - 40 day level I realized that things had become easier to do the pace I was doing, I just was always going to be slower than I hoped. In both environments, it's a realization that things that used to require some amount of concentration became second nature and now don't require a moment's thought. But the most important point I can get across is that we all learn in different ways and at a different pace, and defining for someone else when they should or shouldn't ride on a certain type of public road is at best inaccurate and at worst condescending. I can't say it any clearer than that.

P.S. I do know that you mean well and have Jeff's interests at heart, and please believe that I do as well.

I could very well have written what you have because I wouldn't differ if it weren't for my particular set of personal and professional experiences.

In the end, the reader/rider of our posts will hopefully come away better informed.

[00v_Lucky]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

I could very well have written what you have because I wouldn't differ if it weren't for my particular set of personal and professional experiences.

In the end, the reader/rider of our posts will hopefully come away better informed.

i know i have! its all about closing your eyes and feeling the road