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Old December 20th, 2020, 08:11 AM   #1
Ash.007
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Unhappy Help needed on EX250

Hi there.
Hopefully I'm posting in the correct forum, if not can someone please redirect me to the relevant one thanks...

Ok so I'm in need of some advice.
was doing repairs on the bike, installed the bottom end in the opposite direction meaning, the 2T marking that's supposed to be for the No:2 piston is is actually on the 1T
Already put it back to the bike frame,
The top end is setup correctly according to the manual.
But I'm just worried should I re open the bottom end and make sure the No2 piston is on the 2T mark as the manual, or would it be fine to start up leaving it on 1T and the top end as per the manual???

I realise I should have marked the lower not just the top.
Any help would be extremely appreciated
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Old December 20th, 2020, 10:45 AM   #2
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
set crank to 2T
unbolt cam-chain tensioner to loosen cam chain
unbolt cams chain
spin cams to correct orientation
bolt cams back in
re-install cam-chain tensioner
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Old December 20th, 2020, 11:28 AM   #3
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Thanks for the fast response...
I've already done that which is how I know that currently TDC on 2nd piston is set at 1F instead of 2T...
And if I set it to the 2T that's firing up 1st piston.
Sorry this is my 1st build and I just want to make sure all is correct.
Would it actually matter if I leave it on 1F and install the cams according to the manual, that should fire up piston 2 as it should???
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Old December 20th, 2020, 02:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash.007 View Post
Thanks for the fast response...
I've already done that which is how I know that currently TDC on 2nd piston is set at 1F instead of 2T...
And if I set it to the 2T that's firing up 1st piston.
Sorry this is my 1st build and I just want to make sure all is correct.
Would it actually matter if I leave it on 1F and install the cams according to the manual, that should fire up piston 2 as it should???
note that 2T can be either firing OR exhaust depending upon cam position
Spin engine 360-degrees and set crank position to 2T.
Pistons and crank can only go together 1 way.
Cams spin at 1/2 speed of crank.
But cams can go together 2 different ways. Or one of 4 possible combinations.
Note: there's 2 sets of holes in cam sprockets. Make sure intake and exhaust cams are bolted to proper holes so that cam lobes aim in proper position.

Kawasaki spent lots of effort and money on engineering for this bike. Design has run well for over 30-years. You are not going to do better than factory engineers. Don't try to 2nd-guess them, you will destroy engine! Follow procedure in manual religiously! Start with engine at 2T and follow every step after that religiously.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 21st, 2020 at 08:32 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 07:56 PM   #5
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash.007 View Post
Hi there.
installed the bottom end in the opposite direction meaning, the 2T marking that's supposed to be for the No:2 piston is is actually on the 1T
This is impossible! Unless you bent crank 180-degrees and have crank-journals face opposite way.

There's a woodruff-key on nose of crank that ensures flywheel only goes back on one way. Did you ensure alignment of flywheel with crank using woodruff key? This is extremely critical as trigger-teeth on flywheel for ignition must be aligned properly with crank and pistons.

Also when 2T mark is shown, which piston is at top? The one closest to flywheel or one closest to clutch?
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Old December 21st, 2020, 09:25 AM   #6
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Ok so from your reply and a thread I found posted ages ago on this site....

I see why I'm second guessing and seem confused, I listened to a friend who's a car mechanic told me that No1 piston is closest to the cam chain /clutch side. And the 2nd piston is what the manual refers to needs to be at TDC.

Which is why I said that on the 2nd piston (flywheel side) at TDC its showing at 1F and not 2T....

The post I read said that the second piston is actually on the right not left, when sitting on the bike normally.

So.... in actual fact the lower end is sitting correct at 2T on piston 2?
Whatever I took out did go back the same way the woodruff-key was exciting, but I didn't end up having any spare parts left over every nut n bolt accounted.
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Old December 21st, 2020, 10:33 AM   #7
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
yes, don't listen to car people, they don't know anything about bikes or carbs.

Ok, you put it all back together properly. Just put crank @ 2T and follow manual on setting cams and you're set! Be sure to spin engine over several times and verify cams are set properly. Good job!!!
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 04:06 AM   #8
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Ah so atleast that's put my mind at easy a tiny bit...

The other thing I'm worried about is when I set it up myself 1st time, I must have set it to 1F sealed everything up and was ready to start...
The bike didn't turn over because of the dead battery, replaced it and still didn't do a full turn to start.

Hence I called up a friend, he comes over force the bike to turn few times, with a cabel director the starter, r(starter relay might be faulty), but wont start. Tells me to check my timings again n that's when I posted a message here....

Hopefully the bike on the wrong timing wont damage a valve or anything serious.
I'll only get back to it on Friday after work.
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Old December 26th, 2020, 03:59 AM   #9
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Ok so I put everything back together. Must have been off by a tooth or so put it on the 2T mark (easy part).
Then the cans as the pic. But I bolted the cams before putting the tensioner on maybe that's my mistake? I'm going to remove and re position it again....
The engine only kept turning didnt want to start up.
Like no fuel, but could definitely get the fuel smell.
Anyway 3rd time lucky, I hope
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Old December 26th, 2020, 10:32 AM   #10
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
trick to off-by-one tooth alignment issue is to pull chain tight on non-tensioner side when installing. That way, there is no slack. So when you reinstall tensioner, there's no change.

Also check pickup-coil spacing to flywheel.

Are you using OEM ignition switch?
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Old December 26th, 2020, 11:08 AM   #11
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Well I started off with the exhaust cam 1st pulled it right and marked the 1st chain link... then placed the intake cam and counted the 34 links placed the tensioner and noticed the intake cam move into place...
Mind you the gasket cover is still on maybe that's why I'm considering it as a tooth off because the actual horizontal markings still stay the same. I did it 3x just to make sure
Anyway put everything back together.
It cranks but no start....
Yes it still has the OEM ignition switch that never was a problem before all this.

Pickup-coil spacing to flywheel, honestly now I'm lost (error 404 page not found)
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Old December 26th, 2020, 12:23 PM   #12
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
With gasket on, you can still verify cam-timing alignment from other side of engine. Note dash-marks on both cam-gears are straight and lined-up with top of head:




Test for spark.
Pull plug-wires and insert spare plug. Ground it to engine valve-cover and crank, do you see spark?
Could be any number of wires got disconnected when engine was removed.

1. measure resistance of pickup-coils at coils themselves
2. measure pickup-coil resistance at ECU connector

Could also be a power or ground wire's disconnected somewhere.

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Old December 30th, 2020, 06:22 AM   #13
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Hi thanks again for your help.

I checked for spark and that seems fine.
I pulled off the stator cover and measured the pickup coil at both ends, at the coil measuring 118.1 and connectors its 117.8.

Ok then I'm going to check the cams again just to make sure, your pictures are helpful.

I just hope that its the cams that not properly placed.
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Old December 30th, 2020, 09:17 AM   #14
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To take the fuel delivery out of the equation did you try to spray something like a starter spray directly into the airbox. If you timing and ignition is ok that will fire up the engine for a few revs
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Old December 31st, 2020, 05:24 AM   #15
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Since I dont have starter fluid, I tried using carb cleaner. Sprayed it in the air box tried starting. And it still sounds the same. Swinging but not enough to start. Guess that's something else altogether now???
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Old December 31st, 2020, 07:11 AM   #16
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You'd be better to use some gas in a spray bottle. I don't think Carb Cleaner will ignite like Starter Fluid.

In order to get anything into the intake you need to open the throttle and manually lift the slides - if you don't, whatever you spray doesn't make it into the intake.

Ducatiman will tell you that Starter Fluid is bad for the Ninja's slides, so be sure to lift them out of the way before spraying if you use it.

All you are looking for is some sign of life. That tells you that your problems come from inadequate or improper fuel metering.

Be sure to charge the battery, and check it with a volt meter to make sure it's holding proper voltage. You should see over 12.7V before cranking and over 10V while cranking. If you don't have that you'll never get it to run properly.
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Old December 31st, 2020, 08:12 AM   #17
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Visible effects of start fluid on a Ducati slide surface, IMHO damaging crap that more applies to the diesel equipment/heavy industry trade than CV carbed motorbikes. Plastic/nylon slides and rubber diaphragms prone to damage when exposed.

Don't want to derail the thread any further though.
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Old December 31st, 2020, 09:23 AM   #18
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What colour of spark did you see when testing?
white?
yellow?
blue?

When was last time bike ran before rebuild?
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Old December 31st, 2020, 09:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
You'd be better to use some gas in a spray bottle. I don't think Carb Cleaner will ignite like Starter Fluid.

In order to get anything into the intake you need to open the throttle and manually lift the slides - if you don't, whatever you spray doesn't make it into the intake.

Ducatiman will tell you that Starter Fluid is bad for the Ninja's slides, so be sure to lift them out of the way before spraying if you use it.

All you are looking for is some sign of life. That tells you that your problems come from inadequate or improper fuel metering.

Be sure to charge the battery, and check it with a volt meter to make sure it's holding proper voltage. You should see over 12.7V before cranking and over 10V while cranking. If you don't have that you'll never get it to run properly.
All great points Jay, thanks for the info on the starter fluid. I did not know that its harmful. Gasoline in spray bottle is a great idea.
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Old December 31st, 2020, 10:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SibSerge View Post
All great points Jay, thanks for the info on the starter fluid. I did not know that its harmful. Gasoline in spray bottle is a great idea.
Ducatiman gets the credit for that.

I will use Starting Fluid occasionally, but try to be aware that it's nasty stuff and rough on plastic and rubber.

Doesn't take much, just a quick shot and you will know if you have a fuel issue or not.
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Old January 3rd, 2021, 09:02 AM   #21
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Thanks for the help as always

Ok the spark on both plugs are blueish
It last ran in March last year. Was parked off since August when I started to work on it. I completed everything back together when I posted on this website last month...

And sorry It is a new battery but I did put it back to charge, thou I forgot to check what the fully charged reading was and had already tried cranking it few times, so its weaker than fully charged, under load it was around 10.45v normal was 12.3v

I had a 10ml syringe of fuel. And poured lil into the carb started and still nothing. It's just swinging & swinging. Not showing any signs of actually starting.

Should I pull the carb off and have it cleaned?
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Old January 3rd, 2021, 10:04 AM   #22
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Spraying gasoline from a bottle is not without risk. Watch out that you don't get a backfire and end up with a handfull of burning gasoline!

I might go as far as using a squirt bottle to squirt a small amount in each carb, then put the bottle aside and try starting the engine.
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Old January 3rd, 2021, 01:59 PM   #23
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That's too much petrol! Maybe 1ml per cylinder max! Might be easier to spray into airbox to have more air and time to vapourise.

Did you drain float-bowls and dry out carbs before working on engine?

Sitting with old petrol for 21-months is sure to cause plastic-like clogs in carb passages. Would definitely need full carb-restoration.
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Old January 3rd, 2021, 04:24 PM   #24
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What have you done to it mechanically since it ran last?

Have you tried opening the throttle slightly, or all the way, as you are cranking? Doesn't need much fuel, just a decent squirt. All you want to hear is momentary sputter and you know.

The battery needs a bit more charging. Should read 12.7V minimum if fully charged.
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Old January 8th, 2021, 08:17 AM   #25
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I changed the big end bearings only then put everything back together...
Yes I did try turning the throttle a bit, no go...

I didn't drain the float bowls because when o took it off and had it on the shelf I thought most of it leaked out,
So that means carb to be restored

Well I got 1 friend give me a bottle of starting fluid, and another give me a 350ml spray bottle of 90% ethanol I got my spray bottle of fuel too. Which is the best option I should go with.
I'll put the battery back to charge.
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Old January 8th, 2021, 08:24 AM   #26
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Just be extremely careful if you spray such flammable liquids around an engine!
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Old January 9th, 2021, 04:28 AM   #27
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Ok so the battery charger said 100%.
Placed it on the bike. Made a mixture of 1ml ethanol 4ml fuel.
Sprayed few times from the air box side definitely was enough.
But nothing. Just cranks continuously...

So I'm guessing its actually a compression issue.
And the fact that i didnt change the piston rings could be the problem
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Old January 9th, 2021, 05:44 AM   #28
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You know the next test to perform then, to eliminate your guessing.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 02:07 AM   #29
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Thumbs up

A compression test...
So I just have to find someone who can do that for me, as I dont have 1 of those.
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