A 2 Stroke Ninjette?

[Vintage Smoke]

How's that for an intro?

My name is Nick and I own/operate Vintage Smoke. I make parts for mostly vintage Yamaha 2 strokes. I also have a small service/repair shop specializing mostly in Harleys and vintage Japanese bikes.

A couple of years ago performed a routine service on a customers 2010 Ninja 250R. I was hooked. The bike handled and stopped fantastic. It was a lot of fun!! Since then all i could think of was stuffing a 2 stroke motor in the Ninja frame. Well.....last week i finally scored one I could afford. Once I sell off the motor I will be shoehorning in a seriously worked motor from a Yamaha Banshee ATV. If you didn't know, the Banshee motor is a 350cc 2 stroke twin. Mine has been heavily ported and otherwise modified. Power should be in the 60+hp range.

I will be keeping a running build thread on one of the 2 stroke forums I frequent here: http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/in...?topic=13533.0

Hopefully you guys will appreciate seeing something different and I KNOW I will be hanging around here stealing away some info on upgrading brakes, suspension, etc!!

BTW....the motor is still in the bike and will be listed in the for sale section!!

[Alex]

Sounds like a fun project!

[Racer x]

Very cool keep us posted. I was thinking of a dirt bike engine for an extra frame I had but this is way better

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Vintage Smoke

I will be keeping a running build thread on one of the 2 stroke forums I frequent here: http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/in...?topic=13533.0

Hope you keep a thread here on the build too... cause that link sucks

The Site You Are Trying To Access Is Prohibited

[Skippii]

There's another guy who used a yamaha RD350 2-stroke in his Ninja...looked really cool and he said it ran well IIRC. Should be pics somewhere online....
Posted via Mobile Device

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by HKr1

Hope you keep a thread here on the build too... cause that link sucks

Must be on your end cause it works for me!!

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by Skippii

There's another guy who used a yamaha RD350 2-stroke in his Ninja...looked really cool and he said it ran well IIRC. Should be pics somewhere online....
Posted via Mobile Device

That's Mark. He did a first gen and it did come out nice. The best part was that he changed the 2 CAMS 4 VALVES stickers on the tail to NO CAMS NO VALVES!!

I am looking at more power, liquid cooling, modern 17" tires, modern brakes, etc.
I am shooting for a poor man's RS250 but better!!!

[Skippii]

Originally Posted by Vintage Smoke

The best part was that he changed the 2 CAMS 4 VALVES stickers on the tail to NO CAMS NO VALVES!!

Someone does an amazing job of installing a new engine in a bike, and you think the best part is the stickers on the bike?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by Skippii

Someone does an amazing job of installing a new engine in a bike, and you think the best part is the stickers on the bike?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah....that's exactly what I meant.

Maybe I should have said:
I know the guy that did it. I actually spoke to him a few days ago and asked him to send me some pics of his mounts to possibly save me some measuring/eyeballing. His work is stellar and that bike really came out nice.

As a neat added touch of creativity he even recreated the tail stickers to say NO CAMS NO VALVES!!!

Is that better?

[lgk]

what the gearing like on the banshee transmission?

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by lgk

what the gearing like on the banshee transmission?

Really low in first gear for wicked drag race style launches and way to tall in the high gears.

The banshee tops out at a top speed where wind resistance isn't an issue. On many street bikes the GAP or difference between gears gets smaller and smaller as you go up to make up for the increasing drag of wind resistance. The banshee is geared so low in the chain and sprocket that it never really goes fast enough for wind resistance to be a factor.

To make up for that I used the banshee lower gears with the top gears from an RZ350 which was a street bike.

I saved the taller top gears for my Banshee triple engine which may go in the bike after all the bugs are worked out with the twin. That project is only a bare set of cases right now so who knows when or if that wil actually come together.
A 100+hp Ninjette sure does sound like fun though !!!!

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Skippii

There's another guy who used a yamaha RD350 2-stroke in his Ninja...looked really cool and he said it ran well IIRC. Should be pics somewhere online....
Posted via Mobile Device

it's on youtube

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Vintage Smoke]

Some update pics...

The new heart:


Mocked up:

[nickjpass]

Interesting... welcome to Ninjette!

[choneofakind]

Are 2-stroke bikes allowed on the streets in the US? I thought they weren't

[Racer x]

The dealers just can't sell the two strokes except for a couple limited production scooters they are all but dead.

That looks really good. I am surprised you did not need a lower frame. Are you going to use the exhaust throttle stuff?

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Are 2-stroke bikes allowed on the streets in the US? I thought they weren't

2 strokes were never "banned". Emissions requirements got stricter and manufacturers stopped producing them and put all their efforts into 4 strokes.

If you have a 2 stroke with a street title then it is OK to register it....even in the communist republic of California! There are still thousands of 2 strokes ridden regularly.

[JeffM]

I like it. Ring-a-ding-ding-ding.......

[eddiekay]

I had an RD350 that was ported with a pipe ( no decals). AS I recall, about the only things ( in '74) I couldnt beat were the 500 Kawi, 750 Honda in street races. Fond memories....after being worked it only got maybe 28mpg and my fave Saturday night thing was to pull up next to Sportsters ( with my 100lb girlfirend on the back) and blow their doors off. Sussex ? Hey, thats close enough for me to come takes some pix when you're done.
Please keep the board posted !

[Klondike1020]

My neighbor and I were just fantasizing about this same swap a few weeks back when I showed him my ninja for the first time. I was thinking banshee or rd350.
He is mid build on an old triple street bike. Made mono shock for it and swapped a cube front end into it . Old Suzuki I think

[eddiekay]

I'll give y'all something to fantasize about:
A steam Ninjette. Wuz in CT last summer...some steam musueum on RT 7....a fweekin' steam powered bike built in the 70's or something. It looked like a whiskey still....wasnt running. Oh man, who needs fuel as long as you can pee. Hey....fuel for the boiler ? Methane's no prob...eat beans, ride farther.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Vintage Smoke

2 strokes were never "banned". Emissions requirements got stricter and manufacturers stopped producing them and put all their efforts into 4 strokes.

If you have a 2 stroke with a street title then it is OK to register it....even in the communist republic of California! There are still thousands of 2 strokes ridden regularly.

Well then by all means have fun on this rocket once it's completed!! Looks like you're off to a good start

[backinthesaddleagain]

cool project, good luck. long live the 2 smoke.

[Felipe the Ant]

I know what I'm doing next winter...

[Felipe the Ant]

How sure are you on the frame though, are you worried about twisting it? How much torque is that going to make? That's my problem with engine swaps

[Vintage Smoke]

It's been more than a year since I last posted. I actually just started back at this project. The bike I am using had a salvage title from a very light slow speed crash. Just the plastics, muffler, and right footpeg were damaged. Shortly after my last post I had to bring the bike for a motor vehicle inspection. The rules say the bike had to be brought in RUNNING! So I had to put the stock motor back in and re-hook everything back up. What a pain. Funny part is that the lady at the inspection center asked me "Why do you have that thing running...can you please turn it off?" Inspection went smooth and I now have a proper title. I am back at the motor install and have a couple of pics for you guys.

I figured the biggest challenge was going to be getting the front sprocket of the new motor exactly (or as close as possible) where the old sprocket was. I made up an alignment jig that triangulates from 2 points on the frame and the center of the countershaft:


When the dowel pin that goes into the center of the countershaft is removed it is almost like a crosshair to use for alignment:


I also used the jig as a way to measure the lateral placement of the sprocket for chain alignment.

Last night I pulled the motor and air box back out. It took me longer to get the air box out than the motor!!


I'll keep you guys updated as I go!!

[Alex]

Nice!

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by Racer x

That looks really good. I am surprised you did not need a lower frame. Are you going to use the exhaust throttle stuff?

I plan to tie the motor in as a stressed member. Basically the motor will be the lower frame.

The RZ350 street bike had the variable exhaust valves in the cylinders which were controlled by engine RPM. The Banshee motor does not use them. The 2 motors are essentially interchangeable though. They even use the same part number for engine cases.

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

I had an RD350 that was ported with a pipe ( no decals). AS I recall, about the only things ( in '74) I couldnt beat were the 500 Kawi, 750 Honda in street races. Fond memories....after being worked it only got maybe 28mpg and my fave Saturday night thing was to pull up next to Sportsters ( with my 100lb girlfirend on the back) and blow their doors off. Sussex ? Hey, thats close enough for me to come takes some pix when you're done.
Please keep the board posted !

The RD's are loads of fun!! Really light and really quick!!

I grew up in Floral Park. Sussex is about an hour and 40 mins from there.

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by Felipe the Ant

I know what I'm doing next winter...

I'm tempted to make a mounting kit. The Banshee motors are really common and because of the popularity with drag racing and dune riding the aftermarket following is HUGE. You can actually build a complete Banshee motor using nothing but aftermarket parts. I could see it being a great swap.

Originally Posted by Felipe the Ant

How sure are you on the frame though, are you worried about twisting it? How much torque is that going to make? That's my problem with engine swaps

The frame should be OK. 2 strokes (especially modified versions) don't make a lot of torque down low. Most of the power comes on at higher RPM's when things are already spinning and moving so it shouldn't be as bad as a real torquey 4 stroke transplant.

[Jono]

This is cool! Good luck with everything.

[psych0hans]

Looks good... Can't wait to see the finished product

[kirk595x]

Thats pretty sick!! I have a soft spot for two strokes. I raced mx and offroad up until a few years ago and I refused to switch to the fourstroke race bikes. The two strokes are way too much fun, simple to work on and lighter. I would love to see a Honda CR 500 motor dropped into a ninja as well...no power valves/ no PV lag!!

[CC Cowboy]

I've had a bunch of 2 smokes also. Love em, love em, love em.

[subxero]

where you gonna fit the expansion headers.... this should be interesting.

I probably would have hunted for a 2000,2001 CR500 engine. Just seem like you would have more room to work with, but i don't know dimensions just guess. Or if you have $6200 buy a brand new CR500 engine

http://www.servicehonda.com/new-motors

or just the whole bike for $12k and say screw the street project i have 500cc of stroke craziness for the dirt.

http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/500af

excuse me i need to go to the ahh... bath room, i need alone time.

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Looks good... Can't wait to see the finished product

Me too!! I can't wait to ride this thing!!

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by kirk595x

Thats pretty sick!! I have a soft spot for two strokes. I raced mx and offroad up until a few years ago and I refused to switch to the fourstroke race bikes. The two strokes are way too much fun, simple to work on and lighter. I would love to see a Honda CR 500 motor dropped into a ninja as well...no power valves/ no PV lag!!

Thanks!!
The CR500 swap has been done on all different kinds of bikes. It makes a ton of power, but it also has real problems with vibration. People have actually had problems with frame cracking from the vibes. I have seen a couple of build threads where the builder abandoned the idea due to excessive vibes. The only one I saw where the builder stuck it out and had great results was on a road race bike(I forget what kind of bike it was...maybe an Aprilla RS250?) where he rubber mounted the engine with vibration isolators.

[Racer x]

Is the primary gearing of the Banshie and the RD the same?

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by subxero

where you gonna fit the expansion headers.... this should be interesting.

I probably would have hunted for a 2000,2001 CR500 engine. Just seem like you would have more room to work with, but i don't know dimensions just guess. Or if you have $6200 buy a brand new CR500 engine

http://www.servicehonda.com/new-motors

or just the whole bike for $12k and say screw the street project i have 500cc of stroke craziness for the dirt.

http://www.servicehonda.com/honda-2010-models/500af

excuse me i need to go to the ahh... bath room, i need alone time.

The expansion chambers for the Banshee motor tend to have slightly less of a belly (bulge) than most dirt bikes. The banshee motor is also a lot smaller than the EX motor. I have a TON of space above the motor since it is so much smaller. I can raise it up a little, but it will be a compromise. I will have to balance things between keeping the motor low for a low center of gravity to keep (or even improve!!) the handling and having enough room inside the fairings for the chambers. I really want to keep the bike looking as close to stock as possible. I even considered routing both stingers (exhaust outlets) to end inside the stock muffler.

I just think it would be totally cool if it was almost impossible to tell the bike apart from stock....until it was started of course!!! A lot of that will be decided by:
Time - I want to have the bike rideable for the 2 stroke meet up at Deals Gap Apr 24th.
Money - The stock plastics are pretty trashed and had a horrible repair job. I have been considering race plastics since they are cheaper.
Function - As much as possible I don't want to make any concessions for cosmetics that will hurt performance.

The bike may wind up being run naked with a set of cut up and welded together aftermarket Banshee pipes for the first stage of the build. Making a set of custom pipes with proper body work, paint, and all the cosmetic details such as hiding the conversion as much as possible, may have to wait for the second stage of the build.

[Vintage Smoke]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Is the primary gearing of the Banshie and the RD the same?

I'm not sure. There are actually different primary ratios for the different RD models. RD250, RD350, etc.

Maybe you meant the RZ? I believe the RZ has the same primary ratios as the Banshee, but the transmission ratios are different. I copied this from one of my earlier posts on this thread:

Originally Posted by Vintage Smoke

Gearing on the Banshee transmission is really low in first gear for wicked drag race style launches and way to tall in the high gears.

The banshee tops out at a top speed where wind resistance isn't an issue. On many street bikes the GAP or difference between gears gets smaller and smaller as you go up to make up for the increasing drag of wind resistance. The banshee is geared so low in the chain and sprocket that it never really goes fast enough for wind resistance to be a factor.

To make up for that I used the banshee lower gears with the top gears from an RZ350 which was a street bike.

I saved the taller top gears for my Banshee triple engine which may go in the bike after all the bugs are worked out with the twin. That project is only a bare set of cases right now so who knows when or if that wil actually come together.
A 100+hp Ninjette sure does sound like fun though !!!!