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Old May 14th, 2015, 04:30 PM   #321
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My tC does the same thing with bumps and brakes. I don't want that on a bike. Only time it was really nice to have the ABS was when j was stupid and had bald tires on during snow storm. Soooooo really only when I was being worthless as a vehicle owner.

Have I wanted it on the motorcycle? Never. Would I buy one that had it? Sure, if the rest of the bike was something I wanted. Would I ever notice a difference? Likely not. Have I locked the ninja up? A couple times on the rear but I lifted to keep it at a happy threshold. I've only had the front to threshold, never locked
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Old May 14th, 2015, 06:57 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
WHAT Gixxer-ABS? Doesn't have it.

In principle ABS makes sense. It's been demonstrated time and again that ABS-equipped vehicles stop shorter than those without ABS.

It also makes sense to be able to tune it. Aufitt's real-world experience shows that ABS that doesn't match a track rider's style will get in the way. Tweak it so that it will prevent a highside while still allowing threshold braking, however, and you've got a good safety feature.

The same goes for all the electronic rider aids we're seeing... TCS, wheelie control, slide control, etc.... when done right and tunable, they're great and let you ride both faster AND safer. Just look at the feedback test riders are giving to the new Yamahahaha R1.
I know that the Gixxer doesn't have ABS and that's why I'd ask.

The way to stop with ABS is not shorter than w/o.

But now to the real point of your answer about tweak it, do you really want to say that you are able to tweak ABS?
Everybody from outside the factory MUST keep his fingers far away from everything that is relevant for safety!
Don't you know that even a stiffer shock will change the ABS setup for the worst?
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Old May 15th, 2015, 12:57 AM   #323
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If anyone in the USA wants my abs junk for the R3 you can have it.

...If I don't smash it into a million bits and torch it with fire in protest at Manufacturers lowering themselves to appeal to the lowest common denominator under misguided delusions of 'safety.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #324
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If anyone in the USA wants my abs junk for the R3 you can have it.

...If I don't smash it into a million bits and torch it with fire in protest at Manufacturers lowering themselves to appeal to the lowest common denominator under misguided delusions of 'safety.
Yeah but wouldn't it require the ECU also?
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Old May 15th, 2015, 01:22 AM   #325
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Yeah but wouldn't it require the ECU also?
Oh well they'll have a unique Metric speedo too.

And be the coolest muppet on the block claiming they are safer than the next guy because they have anti brakes

'Don't need no skillz man, just panic, mash, and pray.'
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Old May 15th, 2015, 04:21 AM   #326
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I can't help but think a lot of this hate for abs stems from riders too pround to admit they might need a "rider aid" or additional saftey tools. ABS can only help a street rider. It's been endorsed by numerous motorcycle saftey organizations, tested in triais and used at the highest levels of riding like MOTOGP.

ABS won't make a bad rider good. Real braking and riding skills are much more important. Some riders maybe never even have it engage on their bikes but that 1 time in 1000 might be all the difference in the world.

There is no legitimate arguement against ABS if it is available and you can reasonable afford it.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 04:35 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
I know that the Gixxer doesn't have ABS and that's why I'd ask.

The way to stop with ABS is not shorter than w/o.
Multiple sources disagree, based on actual testing.

Study by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, which also crash-tests cars) in cooperation with Transport Canada of conventional, linked and ABS-equipped bikes.
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/ims...ance-Paper.pdf

Austrailian (spokes.com.au) article with citations: http://www.spokes.com.au/riding-safety/abs

But here's the point: There is more to braking than short stopping distances. Aufitt's visceral hatred of ABS is based on experience at the track, where you're intentionally playing with the limits of traction. His own personal style doesn't play nice with the ABS system on an entry-level street bike. Given those circumstances, the objection is certainly valid.

On the street, for the average rider who is the target for the R3, it's a different story.


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Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
But now to the real point of your answer about tweak it, do you really want to say that you are able to tweak ABS?
There are track-oriented bikes with tunable or race-optimized ABS. For example:

For example, from the Cycle World "first ride" writeup on the Triumph Daytona 675R:

Quote:
The ABS offers two modes of operation, normal and circuit. Triumph insisted we ride in the latter mode as it’s calibrated for dry track use and overrides the normal mode’s anti-nose-wheelie control. You’d practically have to hit an oily patch or run off track for it to activate. The stock fitment Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SP radials were so hooked up, the only time I felt the ABS engage was when I purposely stomped the rear pedal on pit lane to be certain it did in fact work.
There's also the Kawasaki KIBS system on the ZX-10R and ZX-6R, which use multiple sensors, are linked to the ECU and are designed for the track (in other words, a whole different deal than the entry-level system on a CBR250).

http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-re...id=134122&pg=2

Aaaand there's BMW's lean-angle-sensing ABS on the S1000RR, which is a heck of an effective track bike: http://www.gizmag.com/bmw-abs-pro-hp4-cornering/33034/
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Old May 15th, 2015, 04:44 AM   #328
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I can't help but think a lot of this hate for abs stems from riders too pround to admit they might need a "rider aid" or additional saftey tools.
If someome has personally experienced a downside (as Aufitt did, albeit riding on the track under race conditions) I'll believe him.

Anyone who has no direct experience of such is just blowing smoke.

But yeah... for the average street rider out in the real, non-track world, there is no reason not to have it IMHO.

Thing is, devices like this do make people lazy, just as calculators created generations of people who can't do arithmetic in their head. Next time you go to the store and pay with cash, watch the cashier make change -- they'll look at the register to see how much it is, because they're incapable of doing the simple sum in their head.

I actually keep a slide rule on my desk and use it all the time, for the mental exercise. (Note to anyone under 55: You don't know what this is. Look it up. It's what engineers used to design the SR-71 and the rockets that took us to the moon.)
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Old May 15th, 2015, 05:52 AM   #329
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R6's aren't that tall. Try a DRZ400SM or a BMW FG650GS
Yep, those bikes sure do have high seats. So do pennyfarthings, but they ain't sportbikes either.

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Old May 15th, 2015, 05:58 AM   #330
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4 yrs ago I used to laugh at dinosoars like me,
ie guys that post on forums saying abs is no good.
Most were old geezers who never tried it, and not likely to.

The other side of the camp was new riders even more deluded,
and its been thrashed out on forums ever since.

Least I tried for myself, went in with open mind.
its worse than no good, its diabolically hopeless and dangerous,
the harder you push it, the worse it behaves
' the wheel is lifting, lets give it LESS brakes!'
right when you've gone past the point of no return and NEED BRAKES RIGHT NOW'
We've just wasted the entire braking zone and are way too hot .

The only good, was it taught me corner speed when out of control (Ive never crashed to this day in 7000km on track on 2 bikes in 4 yrs, 2 yrs of that is hard racing with riders that are national champions)

30 yrs of skill braking skill and confidence thrown away.
I had no plans of even track riding when I bought the bike, within 3 weeks I was into level 2, within a 2yrs into advanced group,
sold the cbr cabs for a Ninja with proper brakes and last year 3rd in state series.

Imagine what happens to new riders?

Honda has since ditched the combined system (it requires the rear circuit to be open for the front to work,)
I have a disabled right foot and havnt used rear brakes on a bike since 1994 as I cant bend ankle, no biggie, heaps of racers don't touch the rear.

R3 announced this morning by local distributors on FB,
$6490 ride away, no mention of abs 'Sign me up!'
Tonight, same ad says $6990 ride away abs. someone made a typo and quickly fixed it

The cbr300SE non anti brakes is $1500 cheaper, now back in front for my new ride but still undecided.
KTM is only $700 more.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #331
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Apologies for the abs discussion, but its kinda valid regarding the R3.

Half the USA says its a 'dealbreaker' that it doesnt have it.
Notice all those riders are new?
this is sad, they should be proud to learn basic skills on such a nice bike.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by kdogg2077 View Post
...used at the highest levels of riding like MOTOGP.
Note: "CW: In 2016, ABS will be obligatory on all bikes sold in the European market. ABS is prohibited in Formula 1 and MotoGP. What is your opinion of ABS in racing?

L.B.: ABS is perfect for the street rider, but in racing, it should be the rider who controls. Probably ABS would be safer, but racing is also a test of the rider, and so for the show, I don’t think ABS would be good."

Link: http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/12...otogp-braking/
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Old May 15th, 2015, 06:35 AM   #333
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Thing is, devices like this do make people lazy, just as calculators created generations of people who can't do arithmetic in their head. Next time you go to the store and pay with cash, watch the cashier make change -- they'll look at the register to see how much it is, because they're incapable of doing the simple sum in their head.
Let me say that I'm not against ABS since I also see the advantage from it.
But 50 / 60 years ago I've seen the men riding with their mc's in the winter on snow (in Germany at that time nearly nobody had a car) and it was impressive for me as a little boy to look how well they did.
What I'm against is that with all that modern gimmicks the young generation more and more is putting their brain asleep, just like you said above. And I'm also against telling them all and every time that all this is the solution for every mistake that could happen but avoided with it.
Make the youngster learn the real way to do first and more than this keep them using their brain and get real skills.
I totally agree with @Aufitt

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Old May 15th, 2015, 07:40 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Note: "CW: In 2016, ABS will be obligatory on all bikes sold in the European market. ABS is prohibited in Formula 1 and MotoGP. What is your opinion of ABS in racing?

L.B.: ABS is perfect for the street rider, but in racing, it should be the rider who controls. Probably ABS would be safer, but racing is also a test of the rider, and so for the show, I don’t think ABS would be good."

Link: http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/12...otogp-braking/
Alright ABS isn't used in MOTOGP, my mistake. I'm think that has more to do with riders needing to drift their tires at different times and such. That said MOTOGP riders use all kinds of electronic rider aids, anyone car to argue that Rossi is lazy or unskilled cause his bike has traction control?

Not wanting ABS on track bike is totally understandable. On a street bike? Provided ABS is available and the rider can afford it, then not have ABS is just hubris. Even the best riders wreck.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 07:50 AM   #335
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Apologies for the abs discussion, but its kinda valid regarding the R3.

Half the USA says its a 'dealbreaker' that it doesnt have it.
Notice all those riders are new?
this is sad, they should be proud to learn basic skills on such a nice bike.
So you think new riders shouldn't have access to things like ABS? So they can learn basic skills like riders used too?

That sounds tough and all, but what about the riders who try to learn their skills, but fail, and perhaps die? Let's not kid around that riding is some little sport like football where the young kids need to "toughen up" or whatever.

And really, can't someone practice riding skills AND have ABS? It's not like ABS rides the bike for you. Only and idiot would say they don't need to practice riding cause they have ABS. Hell, half the guys riding probably don't even think about ABS much less use it as some crutch.

And to be clear, my bike doesn't have ABS and my next bike probably won't either, but I sure wish they did. A rider doesn't need to have ABS to be safe, but it sure helps.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 08:21 AM   #336
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@kdogg2077 - Alex, please read my post above yours and you'll understand how I think about.
What I don't like is that military style to say without ABS and the other modern gimmicks a bike is worth- or useless.
Let me bring you a little example about this.
Long time ago while preparing WRC-Cars, there have been two of the worlds best legendary drivers to test them, one was called Rally Professor and the other one was the best driver the world has ever seen.
As a joke we'd loosen one rear shock to see how they react and believe me, the Prof. stopped after around 500 meters and came back to tell, that from his feeling there could be a loose shock at the rear - so to say a very high skilled driver.
The second took the car and drove best-time after best-time on the test-circuit without any care about the lose shock - what tells us he even with a not exact working car was able to do it better than others - because he'd learn everything from base without gimmicks.
And now please transfer this to a beginner with all the modern gimmicks and one of this will fail...

Please let everybody decide what he/she wants and don't force them to anything - thank you.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 08:41 AM   #337
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So you think new riders shouldn't have access to things like ABS?

.
Absolutely!

Ban it from Lams bikes and RE license holders,
They will die the first corner when they get their R6.
Muscle memory wont be trained to deal with it.
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Old May 15th, 2015, 02:33 PM   #338
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Please let everybody decide what he/she wants and don't force them to anything - thank you.
This is the most important thing.

All these laws that force one thing or the other on us are wrong. It's for us to decide and the market to provide!
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Old May 15th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #339
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If anyone in the USA wants my abs junk for the R3 you can have it.

...If I don't smash it into a million bits and torch it with fire in protest at Manufacturers lowering themselves to appeal to the lowest common denominator under misguided delusions of 'safety.
I do

Can't you pull a fuse or something to disable it though?
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Old May 18th, 2015, 08:51 AM   #340
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After riding the R3 friday i would say it's a great little bike. Fun and flickable. Very responsive. Still a bit too tall so i would need to lower it a bit if i got one.
Power wise stock i didn't notice much if any difference from my 300 with my pipe and fuel control system (not sure how much more HP that give the 300).

On thing i realy liked was the tall tank for comfort. the gauge cluster is realy nice if not a bit busy in comparison. Looks wise i prefer the R3 to the 300, i think its a better designed bike.

All in all if i was looking to stick with a small sport bike i would consider selling the 300 to get the R3.

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Old May 18th, 2015, 12:43 PM   #341
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All in all if i was looking to stick with a small sport bike i would consider selling the 300 to get the R3.
What kind of bike are you think of switching to? Got a particular machine in mind?
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Old May 18th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #342
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What kind of bike are you think of switching to? Got a particular machine in mind?
Sure do. As it stands right now the Vulcan S in green unless i like a sportster better, don't think i will though. The Vulcan put the biggest smile on my face so far.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 01:28 PM   #343
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Sure do. As it stands right now the Vulcan S in green unless i like a sportster better, don't think i will though. The Vulcan put the biggest smile on my face so far.
Cool. I image searched on google for it and was linked right back to the ninjette news bot:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214499

I'm stuck in this place!
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Old May 18th, 2015, 01:49 PM   #344
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Sure do. As it stands right now the Vulcan S in green unless i like a sportster better, don't think i will though. The Vulcan put the biggest smile on my face so far.
sportster is a piece of crap, really. go Vulcan! live long and prosper!
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Old May 18th, 2015, 02:56 PM   #345
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Cool. I image searched on google for it and was linked right back to the ninjette news bot:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214499

I'm stuck in this place!
Haha! That's funny!

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sportster is a piece of crap, really. go Vulcan! live long and prosper!
That's what I'm told.

And yes, it's name will be Spock.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 03:25 PM   #346
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According to the Yamaha website, the R3 should be in showrooms next month. I've seen the thread with over 500 posts....

I'm a Yamaha guy thru and thru... coming from 3 R6's, a YFZ450 quad, and current FZ1, it'd be preposterous to think I'd ride anything but big blue. Only got the Kawi to hopefully flip for a buck or two and fund accessories for the R3.

All of my Yamaha's have been blue and will always be blue.

God I'm in love with that bike. I plan to get one after my 6-month hike. Yeah!
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Old May 18th, 2015, 03:48 PM   #347
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It's a shame they cost so much new.
I got my 2013 Ninja 300 for $2500... bout half of a Yamaha, so I cannot justify that sorta thing. If I could get one for $3500, that 'saki would be gone in an instant.

Y'all some serious dudes defending your take on ABS and seat height.... wowzers!

All I know is that my dad has an '06 FJR with linked ABS and it works awesome. I purposely tried to get the brakes to lock up to see if it worked and it does. I agree though... don't need ABS if you know how to modulate the brake lever in any way.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 04:27 PM   #348
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Of all those against ABS...

I bet if you lockup in rain, your next bikes will have it
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Old May 18th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #349
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^^ Lol, I'd bet against it. Been there and done that. Still not very interested.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #350
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I was thinking that was more to the newer/intermediate level guys against it cause they heard another say something...

I fully understand why season track vets are against it and why for the track.

I know good riders who refuse ABS on track bikes, and won't go for a country back road tour w/o it on the streets.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 04:38 PM   #351
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Ohhhhh... Missed that.

I'm hardly seasoned.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 06:14 PM   #352
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Old May 18th, 2015, 06:23 PM   #353
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Old May 18th, 2015, 06:26 PM   #354
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way to go with the bike porn while i am trying to quit changing motorcycles! :/

j/k. bike porn good. unf.
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Old May 18th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Trailerboy531 View Post
Wow you think they would make the motor a little bigger by then.
I had to read it twice, but **** you Max, that cracked me UP!
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:29 AM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette View Post
Haha! That's funny!



That's what I'm told.

And yes, it's name will be Spock.

Agreed. I have had 2 Sportsters and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The Vulcan looks great though!
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Old May 19th, 2015, 07:36 AM   #357
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I like the R3 and have been watching them for a while. If I didn't have a Ninja 300 I would be serious about one, since I already have a 300 the R3 just doesn't offer me anything additional.

Nice looking bike though, I hope they do well. The competition helps drive the industry and provides us consumers more options.

Snapped a few pics for ya while I was at my local dealer...







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Old June 2nd, 2015, 09:07 PM   #358
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Damn, should've gotten the R3 if I had known...

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old July 1st, 2015, 12:59 AM   #359
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I can happily say my fears of the ABS are nothing, smashed my Ninja 250 race PB on the R3 by almost a second and didn't pulse the abs once.
It doesn't mind the rear hovering, unlike the Honda systems.
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