June 26th, 2011, 08:53 AM | #1 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Race Tech vs GSXR front end
I feel like I am using up every bit of the stock suspension on my bike. I have enjoyed it up until now, but it is time for some modifications.
With that said: I'm not sure if I should re valve, spring, oil the front end or install a GSX-R (or whatever else fits) front end. From what I understand the GSX-R front ends are lighter (?) and they have better components. The flip side is having to do body work modifications, brake pads are more expensive, new wheel size (?) I'd like to get some opinions of people who have done one or the other or both. FWIW I do most of my riding on the Dragon and Cherohala Skyway. The stock suspension feels mushy and unpredictable. I want something firmer and less squirrely. I weigh ~150 lbs. |
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June 26th, 2011, 09:56 AM | #2 |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Have you tried adjusting the rear shock and installing preload adjusters on the front? http://www.slingshotracing.net/catal...dju-p-191.html
Also what kind of tires and tire pressure are you using? |
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June 26th, 2011, 10:37 AM | #3 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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I've adjusted the rear shock. That helped. Then I installed clip ons and dropped the front, which didn't help.
I am running stock IRC tires with 28 front and 32 rear. I have not tried preload adjusters. |
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June 26th, 2011, 10:40 AM | #4 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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you can change the oil and tighten the springs with spacers for extremely cheap. you might consider trying this and see if you like it before going a more expensive route with emulators or swapping the front
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June 26th, 2011, 11:11 AM | #5 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Will this actually help or will it feel more like a bandaid? I don't intend on getting rid of the bike and want to do it right.
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June 26th, 2011, 11:44 AM | #6 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
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it really depends on what the "real" problem is that you're trying to solve. if your front forks truly need a higher spring tension because they're bottoming out, adding spacers (or getting preload adjusters) will fix the issue with very little consequence (you lose travel distance, but the amount you change for the amount you lose usually isn't very high. probably not high enough to notice imo) if the problem is too high of a rebound rate, higher viscosity oil will solve the issue at the expense of a harsher feel over bumps. the reason people use emulators and fancy cartridge forks like the gsxr forks is because they have multiple flow rates depending on the force applied to the valve. when it's under low force, the damping rate is high, giving good "rider feedback", but when the force is high (such as hitting a bump) the higher rate valve opens allowing more oil to flow, giving a softer feel over the bump. cartridge forks like the gsxr's and others are fancy because they have valve adjustments on the outside of the fork, so it's easier to tune and adjust.
i've seen a page that describes in detail various traction problems and what the root cause of each issue might be due to... i can't find it now (should have bookmarked it) but i'm sure someone here knows what i'm talking about and can provide a link
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June 26th, 2011, 03:47 PM | #7 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I also have to mention that there are more than a few complaints about the stock IRC tires. They are not the most confidence inspiring tire and can be a little squishy if push too hard on corners. A slightly wider and grippier tire can work wonders. Just about any other tire will be better than stock and more than likely the tire inflation numbers will be slightly higher, which can have an affect on the suspension. You can get new suspension components, but if you have crappy tires, the wrong sag and bad geometry it does not mean a thing. As far as the stock suspension goes, for me the front forks could be a little stiffer, but I've kind of gotten used to them. I do a lot of different riding on twisty back roads, some gravel from time to time, city riding and interstate. the front shocks seem to be a happy medium for them all so far. I weigh about 225 lbs (fully loaded) so, riding too close to the tank, for me, makes the bike dive more under hard braking. If I slide back as far as I can on the seat, stretch out and keep my weight behind the tank instead of over it, it really seems to help, especially with equal braking. |
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June 26th, 2011, 06:00 PM | #8 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Joe
Location: Buffalo NY
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250 "Wasabi", 82 Yamaha xj650j Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Stock tires arent grippy enough imo. They make me scared I'm gonna lose traction all the time (dunlops)....probably because I did once and still regret it! Tires are too narrow imo Played around with different tire pressures til I found a happy medium and stiffened up the suspension to 4 (I'm 155lbs) I love it, most of the time! I think the supension system on this bike is only mediocre. Its not adjustable enough to match the engine character as far as agressive riding goes. If your all the way over in a turn (off the track) and you hit a bump in the road....yikes. Scary stuff. I agree with Dablue1 completely. You changed the geometry of the bike and from what it sounds like your change probably made it more flickable but at a sacrifice to stability. The stock rear suspension is plenty enough adjustable to suit riders of your size. No need to think about compensating the front end for weight. Id set it back to stock and then play with the springs and oil aspects first. There are fork spring packages available and there are aftermarket shocks. A few rear shock mods are also out and about aswell. Good luck
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June 26th, 2011, 07:59 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.
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I would suggest changing to the stickiest tires available for your riding and drop the front (raise it back up) 1/2 the amount you have it presently dropped. btw, how much are the fork tubes sticking up past the triple clamp?
you say you feel like you're using all of your suspension... are you actually bottoming the suspension at times? if not, you are not using all of your suspension. what is it exactly that you don't like about how the suspension is working right now? unless you can identify the problem, you can't look for the correct solution. |
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June 26th, 2011, 09:25 PM | #11 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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+1 on the tires. missed the part where you said you had IRCs... yikes.
if you do change front tension, i would try to figure out the spring tension you want with something cheap like spacers to add preload before switching to proper rate springs. i would start by checking the bike + rider weight against a good common scale like the one on race-tech's site to get what kind of weight/travel you want. that site posted above shows how to put a rubber band or whatever around your forks so you can see how far they're compressing. you want the most travel the fork will give without ever bottoming out, this lets them work to their full extent. i may be wrong on this so don't trust me but you should be able to tell your final spring rate from the spacers by taking your current spring rate (eg 8kg/mm) and doing a little math to figure it out. for example if the ninja's fork travel is 5cm and you add 2mm of preload it's like saying (8kg*5cm) / (5cm-2mm). but honestly losing under 10mm of travel is probably not noticable. (edit: so why bother buying expensive springs... unless you're racing i guess) keep in mind when thinking about swapping in other suspension; a properly tuned standard fork will always work better than an improperly tuned cartridge fork
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June 27th, 2011, 07:16 PM | #12 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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So a friend of mine (nope here on the forums) has his ninja with the gsxr front forks on his race bike. I have the racetech front end (springs, emulators, 15w oil) on my race bike so I can stay legal in production classes. I've ridden both bikes and gotta say theres pros and cons for both:
GSXR Pros: Better suspension/brake components & more adjustability. GSXR Cons: Clipons require cutting bodywork or removing, seating position WAY forward, and front spring rate way too stiff. Plus takes some machine shop skill to get the head tube to fit. Racetech Pros: Keepin all your bodywork and stock (cheap) components Racetech cons: Stock front brake You'll notice I've ignored performance & cost, because the reason is that if you spend the money to set up either route to fit you, it will most likely cost about the same (~$500-$600). At the track, we were neck and neck against each other, despite having totally different setups and him having a front slick. Also, once the front end is set up well, the limit is your skill btw: quit messing around in canyons you're just gonna die. Invest in track time. |
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June 28th, 2011, 07:43 AM | #13 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Sounds like I need to try new tires first. The suspension is not bottoming out, I just feel like I've reached the limits of its usefulness.
I have some clip ons from Sportisi. The forks stick up a total of ~1.5". I don't intend on raising it back up as I prefer the riding position with the new clip ons vs stock bars. I feel like I can enter a corner just fine. When I get in the corner the steering feels mushy and unsure. I do feel how the tires are not confidence inspiring, but I think that is an entirely different issue (new tires obviously). When I exit the corner everything goes back to feeling good. The bike feels stable when going over bumps while the bike is straight up, just not when it is leaned over in a corner. The front and rear feel like they are soaking up bumps at different rates. The rear is set at 3 clicks from the top. It feels good. The front feels mushy. Hopefully someone will put a memorial up for me, Rexbo. |
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June 28th, 2011, 08:39 AM | #14 |
Smoker
Name: Bob
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Dec 2010 Motorcycle(s): Guess.... Posts: 556
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June 28th, 2011, 09:54 AM | #15 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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definitely get better tires if you're riding agressively
but... if you aren't bottoming out, the forks don't need more preload. adding preload where it's not needed will make them worse at being able to recover from traction losses. i experienced similar issues with confidence on the front in turns and also blamed the bike before someone smart set me straight. turned out i was doing it wrong what exactly do you mean when you say mushy and unsure? when you're full tilt mid turn, what's your input like? are you trying to correct the line when it feels "mushy"? whats your throttle like? off the gas? coasting? trail braking until the apex then on the gas? how are you positioned? is your weight completely off the bars? how about peg weighting? outside? next time you're riding try to pay attention to where the bike's weight is going when you're maneuvering. how much weight is on each tire?
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June 29th, 2011, 01:50 AM | #16 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Its hard to explain what I mean by mushy and unsure. When I'm in a corner the front just doesn't feel solid and planted. Its like driving a car with old worn out shocks. It doesn't feel stable.
I may very well not know how to corner properly. That is always a possibility. I set up for a corner. Scoot over to the side of the bike of which I am turning. Put pressure on my inside peg. I hardley ever have pressure on my handlebars even in braking. In a corner I am usually coasting to the apex and then applying gas or applying a small amount of gas and then more gas after the apex. I do not know how much weight is on each tire. |
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June 29th, 2011, 08:13 AM | #17 |
Smoker
Name: Bob
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Dec 2010 Motorcycle(s): Guess.... Posts: 556
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Like I said, probably the tires. That should be the first thing you upgrade. The new gen suspension is far better than the classic 250.
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June 29th, 2011, 09:07 AM | #18 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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I've never ridden an old gen 250 so I can't compare.
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June 29th, 2011, 09:21 AM | #19 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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at what point does it feel mushy? during the coast in? does it get better when you get on the gas? when you're coasting in you're probably only at about 55/45 weight distribution. i think if you don't maintain a 60/40 or 40/60 the front tends to feel disconnected from the ground in a turn. when you're at 60/40 the front has enough weight to stay planted and when you're at 40/60 the rear is keeping you stable enough that the front doesn't need much weight to stabilize.
also "people say" weighting the outside peg is better than the inside... never really understood exactly why though. anyway once you get a better tire you might notice the extra bite has resolved the issue but if doesn't help and you're feeling adventurous and have somewhere safe you can practice it you may want to start trailbraking into turns slightly, it will give you more weight on your front in your turn in and may eliminate the disconnected feeling. i think the biggest hurdle i had with trail braking was being smooth enough on the release into gas... if you're too sudden the suspension will hate you and too much power before the rear squats will kick your rear tire out and you'll see the bike spinning away from you. too much brake on the turn in and you risk going over the traction limits of your front tire and you'll tuck the front
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June 29th, 2011, 09:24 AM | #20 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Joe
Location: Buffalo NY
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250 "Wasabi", 82 Yamaha xj650j Posts: A lot.
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Maybe tires are too full take a couple lbs outta each. also check your pressure gauges against others. I have three and they all give different readings.
If ur tires still have sheen on their edges, prep them a little dull with some fine sand paper. what setting is your rear shock on?
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June 29th, 2011, 10:12 AM | #21 |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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Motorcycle tires just like car tires need rebalancing as they wear. The factory weights are centered on the rim as opposed to a tire that has been dynamically balanced where the weight are put to outside edge of the rim. Make sure the tires are balanced properly and try a few more psi to find out what pressure works best. What I think you make be feeling is the tire moving in bumps and grooves in the road surface while being leaned over and having lateral forces and weight put on it. Some wheel movement is going to be normal especially in turns at speed on the Dragon. That along with a very simple suspension, it should be expected. Bottom line I think tires will make the difference. The hard compound on the IRC's make it a better touring tire than performance tire.
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June 29th, 2011, 02:54 PM | #22 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Joe
Location: Buffalo NY
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250 "Wasabi", 82 Yamaha xj650j Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I disagree with adding more air. The compound of the stock tires are pretty hard. Under thermal expansion softer compounds tend to open up when heated or "outgas" as the industry calls it, creating a stickier tire. Thermal expansion in harder compounds don't do this very well. The harder tires can get just as hot. With this in mind we should also take into consideration the expansion of air in the tire. Traction becomes much more of an issue in the stock tires because they are already stiff and hard to begin with. When you overinflate a tire, your decreasing the amount of contact the tire has with the road and vise versa. When the stock expand out on the road they don't outgas like the stickies do, so taking some air out as a compensation will gain you more traction and it will also help to not feel as though your riding on stone wheels. You can't expect aftermarket performance from the stock rocks anyway you look at it. Link to a good post kelly put up on the topic last year. He sumed up the way he dials in on his sleep...er tire pressure numbers. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=21
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Last futzed with by Buffalony; June 29th, 2011 at 03:16 PM. Reason: link |
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June 29th, 2011, 07:22 PM | #23 |
ratlab
Name: reese
Location: tracy, ca
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): gsxr1000,R3x2,RC390,FZ07,XR100 Posts: 132
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put a zip tie on your forks and see what position it is in when you brake hard-you will know if your using all your suspension or not-1.5 inches seems to me way!!!!!! to much -go back to about 10 mm over and see how it feels-i would go the racetech route and play with the emulator-it's easiest way to go and works well-new tires will help -i use bt-003rs and seem great 140 rear 110 front
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June 29th, 2011, 07:35 PM | #24 |
ratlab
Name: reese
Location: tracy, ca
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): gsxr1000,R3x2,RC390,FZ07,XR100 Posts: 132
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you should'nt coast into corners -brake and use slight throttle through corners-weight inside peg on entrance which helps turn bike in and outside peg thru corner which provides rear traction-you have 1.5 inches of fork pulled through triple clamps which is putting way to much weight on front end-you probably have big unused strips of tire on front and that is why it is feeling unsettled -you are losing wheelbase with that much fork pulled thru-when you drop forks things will be more stable and you will have more feel
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June 29th, 2011, 08:47 PM | #25 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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i've heard this many many times... every time they say it gives your rear more traction... i prefer it over the inside peg mid corner but i still don't understand how it would "give the rear more traction"
how would putting your weight higher and further out give your rear more traction? i can understand how it would help you as a rider better control your inputs, especially if you were getting low enough to drag bits or if you're dragging knees... but... i just don't understand it fully. can someone please explain in detail? link? anything?
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June 30th, 2011, 08:23 AM | #26 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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I'm so damn confused at this point.
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June 30th, 2011, 09:53 AM | #28 |
ratlab
Name: reese
Location: tracy, ca
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): gsxr1000,R3x2,RC390,FZ07,XR100 Posts: 132
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sorry to get off track-keith code disagrees with weighting pegs and promotes that countersteering only works-schawntz school promotes both -as you add throttle mid corner with your body hanging off to the inside- rear tire wants to spin up to the outside -weighting the outside peg puts pressure on rear tire giving added traction-i do it because i was taught that way-probably never notice unless at track day speeds-alex.s is right -tire -fork springs-fork oil-emulator-play with ride height-do one thing at a time so you know what works
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July 1st, 2011, 07:29 PM | #29 |
CVMA / AFM / M1GP #250
Name: Steve
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250r, 2011 Zero S, 2009 KLR 650 Posts: A lot.
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July 1st, 2011, 08:45 PM | #30 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ian
Location: Columbia, SC
Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): 09' 250 ARRRRRR Posts: 130
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i think we can all agree that the stock front end is a bit "vague" or "mushy"
rather than changes to the bike, does anyone have any suggestions specifically related to riding techninque that may help improve front end feel. my forks have never been moved and im running BT003RS 110/140, and i use all the tread on the rear tire, but have some tiny chicken strips on the front. is this normal? i mean, i get my bike low enough around some roundabouts to scrape kickstand mount and scare the F*CK out of myself. |
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July 1st, 2011, 09:05 PM | #31 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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i don't think i agree that the stock forks feel mushy unless you're being abrupt with them. maybe if you compare them to a supersport... but the EX line of bikes aren't supersports. they sports. its like comparing a gto to a lotus exige. clearly the exige (or porche, or whatever) is clearly going to handle better because its twice the cost and designed for performance only. not comfort at all.
maybe use your body more. don't put any weight on the bars outside of steering inputs. i believe the front is supposed to be able to handle more lean angle than the rear so you can still have counter-steering inputs when at full lean angle maybe?
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July 2nd, 2011, 12:28 AM | #32 |
ratlab
Name: reese
Location: tracy, ca
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): gsxr1000,R3x2,RC390,FZ07,XR100 Posts: 132
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it's normal to have chicken strips on front tire-by playing with ride height front and rear it will change bigger or smaller,but even at the track i still get a small strip at the front
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July 2nd, 2011, 10:08 AM | #33 |
self wrencher
Name: john
Location: houston
Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 08 250r and 07 600r Posts: A lot.
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Better tire then go with race tech. That way everything fits. Gsr has lots of modifications to parts to get them fitted.
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July 2nd, 2011, 02:14 PM | #34 |
GDTRFB
Name: Drew
Location: SE PA
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250 - sold 2005 EX500R project Posts: 496
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CB, I know its time for new tires just because you will really appreciate them! I agree with you though. I can't seem to shake the uneasy un-planted feeling in the front. I keep working on my body position and throttle control. I can't shake you on the hill so I know you are working it!
Woturtle, watch your lean... Hitting the kickstand safety switch tilted my rear tire and sent me sliding. ;[ Posted via Mobile Device |
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July 2nd, 2011, 02:22 PM | #35 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ian
Location: Columbia, SC
Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): 09' 250 ARRRRRR Posts: 130
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well i'd kinda like my ninjer to handle more like a supersport, i dont ride it but 30 miles at a time and the roads are pretty twisty.
does anyone know what spring rate and fork oil would be fitting for a 165lb rider that wants a sportier feel? rear shock preload stays on 3 and it feels pretty good. i get much more feedback from rear suspension than front IMO. *edit* yeah it bucked me up out of the seat and it baaarrreely touched. i can see why all the guys that race these bikes MUST grind them off. |
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July 2nd, 2011, 02:29 PM | #36 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
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the frame is not stiff enough for it to handle like a super sport. get a different frame, get a different set of forks, get different wheels and brakes, get a different rear shock. you now have a super sport rolling chassis with a 250 engine in it. it will likely also cost more than just buying a super sport.
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July 2nd, 2011, 08:40 PM | #37 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Thanks Drew. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has the problem. For sure I will be getting new tires.
I think what I'll probably do is rebuild the shocks with thicker weight oil and see how that works for me. Eventually I believe I will go with the GSXR front end as it include better components and has more precision. I would also like to know what the stock weight oil and springs are... research time! |
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July 2nd, 2011, 11:39 PM | #38 |
ratlab
Name: reese
Location: tracy, ca
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): gsxr1000,R3x2,RC390,FZ07,XR100 Posts: 132
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use racetech 7.0 springs and their 15 weight fork oil for a quick fix till you do gsxr front-it might be all you need and a lot cheaper to do-i did the emulators also and my forks feel really good-but the limiting factor is the frame-when pushing really hard with sticky tires you can feel a lot of flex going on-i did ohlins rear shock which was probably overkill,but both ends of my bike are planted-no shakes ,wobbles ,diving on the brakes-really happy with suspension
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July 3rd, 2011, 08:08 AM | #39 |
Ms. Personality
Name: CB
Location: Murvill, TN
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): Depends on the week you ask Posts: A lot.
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Reese, how much do you weigh?
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July 3rd, 2011, 10:05 AM | #40 |
-
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.
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The EX-250's original springs are .44 kg/mm. For a 165 pound rider .70 kg/mm.
I'm a 175 pounder and I use .75 kg/mm springs. As far as fork oil is concerned, nobody knows what Kawasaki put in there, and by the time most of us get around to replacing the oil it's so old and dirty and worn out it might as well be old fashioned mineral oil. |
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