Turbo250.com - My Turbo Build Blog

[Somchai]

Shawn I wish you all the best

[cuong-nutz]

Happy belated birthday! Hoping its something simple and easy!

[micoulisninja]

happy birthday Shawn ! wish you a lot of boost and high revving turboed horsepowa !!!

[garth285]

Just got done messing with the KDS tool from Kawi, had to find drivers and all this BS just to get it to work, the only error code it was showing for for the PAIR valve missing, which the manual doesnt say anything if that goes bad it will do anything.... So today I got brand new fresh E85 and ran it in the bike, the map I had in the bike I Think had something big numbers taken out of it to get the air fuel good, well I ran that same ECU and the air fuel was super lean, I threw in a map with only 30% fuel taken out of it and it only revved to 10k but it was SUPER rich like down to .73 lambda lol.... so I pulled fuel out and I'll rev it up tomorrow and see if antying on the KDS goes off. Sigh...... Atleast I have the KDS to see whats going on? lol

I'm going to lean the bike out tomorrow and see what it does so we'll see.

Next thing I'll do is put the stock header on the bike and see if that makes a difference, I hope its not to restrictive...

[Racer x]

If all else fails can you try gasoline? I know we have totally different systems but I could not get my engine to rev past 7-8k on E85

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Racer x

If all else fails can you try gasoline? I know we have totally different systems but I could not get my engine to rev past 7-8k on E85

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa........ What?

Details man!

Carbs? EFI?

[Racer x]

I tried to run E85 through my carbs. I went 30% 40% 50 % more volume using larger jets. The E85 was fresh race type. Not pump stuff.
It seemed like I was just not getting enough fuel. It would idle. But when I opened the throttle even in neutral the engine would not rev past 7500. And sounded like crap.
I even added a low pressure pump and larger needle seat.

So I bailed on e85.

Then later when trying to tune my nitrous system above forty HP. The engine was reacting like it did on E85. But a little higher rpm. But not running well.
I changed to the Takai super coils and jumped to fifty HP. No change but coils. This made me think the coils may have been my problem with e85. I have not revisited that.
I changed the exhaust cam for the higher lift intake cam and picked up another ten hp and that is what I have now.

[garth285]

Got ya! Thats pretty much what I Was thinking you were talking about but I didnt have time to lookup to find your E85 posts before.

I have read mixed reviews about those coils, I just dont want to spend $400 to chance it working or not, I think I may have an issue somewhere else.

I think I may have been shooting myself in the foot for a while with a possibility of bad E85 gas, so now I have fresh fuel which I did see a air fuel change in.

Tonight I'm going to try running the bike with a leaner fuel map, my air fuel went to .73 lambda (10.7:1 AFR lol) so I'll lean it out and see what happens, I know I got the bike to rev to almost 13k one time before so we'll see! If that does not work even leaning it out, I'll swap the turbo off for a set of stock pipes to see if the turbo header is to restrictive. If that does not work I'm going to put the stock 300 injectors in the bike and run it on pump gas and see what it does.

Motor shows no signs of damage, no smoking or anything like that but there is a chance myabe something is wrong internally but not 100% sure. Going to borrow a friends compression adapter and check compression, worse case I have a spare engine sitting ont he bench ready to go in.
@Racer x - as far as the intake on the exhaust side for cams have you had any PTV issues? Thank you again for all of your insight! I know we have different ideas but I really appreciate your input!

[Racer x]

Don't forget the stock header has a converter in it.

I think we have the same ideas just different setups. Particularly the nitrous bike. It is really out there.

[garth285]

GOOD NEWS!

Bike revved out to 13,400rpm tonight!

Now this is just free revving, but I believe I'm getting somewhere and I think I found my issue's 1. I think the E85 I had went bad! After I put a fresh batch in I was getting very different air fuel readings, so after the first time I ran the bike with fresh gas the air fuel was HOG rich just free revving - 10.75:1 air fuel!!!! This was with 30% fuel pulled from all of the fuel maps in the ECU. I then pulled the ECU out and put in another tune this time with a total of 45% fuel pulled from all maps that sort of change 15% should have changed the air fuel quite a bit but I think these injectors are going to be fussy. So with that -45% the bike was revving out to 13,400rpm and the air fuel went a little leaner to 11.5:1 AFR.

Next step - I am going to pull more fuel out on the top side just to see what air fuel in neutral I can get the bike to run normal with hopefully lean it out to about 13.0:1 and see if it revs right up or not.

After this I will install the charge pipe and take the bike for a spin with a safe tune in her and see how it acts.

I hate to say this but all of my troubles could have been over some bunk E85! Its a bitter sweet as it will suck if thats all it was but hey if the bike runs good thats all I want!

I will keep you all posted!!!!!

[Somchai]

Shawn wonderful to read that you're on a good way.
Around four years ago the theme about E85 was actual here in the LoS and so it was in the Ninja 250 Community and from that time I've found a video

Link to original page on YouTube.

Listen to the sound of the engine (Ninja 250-FI) with normal setup and then with 15% enriched and watch what the engine revs are doing. Also at least look for the last stage with 30% richer than standard.
The theme about E85 became more quiet now from what I see...

[garth285]

Interesting setup that guy had. Most of the time a standard bike you need to add about 30% fuel at wot but it can vary from bike to bike.

My problem is I am running 330cc injectors and stock are 175cc. So getting the fueling right will be tricky.

[swarfman64]

great stuff. So glad your making headway again

[QuickSiR]

I don't know if this applies to your area but make sure you tune the cold start fuel map.

We forgot to do it on my Turbocharged Honda Civic and the first time I started the car during winter I flooded my engine with gas. Had to replace all the o2 sensors & wideband sensor.

The stock cold start map was opening the stock injectors at like 90% for cold starts with temp below -10C. Well 1000cc injectors shoot a hell of a lot more gas then the stock 240cc injectors. ROFL

It was an all year around daily driver but it got stolen 6 years ago.

[garth285]

OK guys, a little update, the bike had kicked my ass for the past oh few weeks so I have given it a rest. I have been trying a few different things and I feel like I'm hot on the trail again.

First off I took the 330cc/min injectors out and I dropped in the stock ninja 300 injectors (175cc/min) I then threw in a map to the ECU that has stock timing but 30% fuel added to all fuel maps. Started up the bike and it idles much better now with the smaller injector in it, well I had to wait one more day to go out and ride it, I didnt make any changes so the next day I took it out for spin but when I went to go start the bike, it felt like it was running on one cylinder.

One of the injectors has given me problems from day one and well I went to go ride it and saw it was running a bit lean in the crusing and then when I went WOT it was going off the wall lean. I tried to richen it up thinking the boost was leaning it out and no luck! So I am giving up on these stock injectors.

Second thing I found out is the Euro 250 runs a 200cc/min injector which is the same part number as the 07+ ZX-6r's So for $30 on ebay I bought a set and they are on their way.

Another thing I also then found out after talking to my buddy Don Guhl from Guhl Motors is that something I may have missed is the fuel injector screens - They apparently can swell up from E85 or Methanol and cause the injector to not flow the fuel needed. I will be pulling the screens on the 200cc injectors when I get them!

Lastly - I was able to get my hands on a UK ninja 250 ECU map. The timing differences are pretty big.... +10 degrees on the UK 250 ECU at mid rpm's vs the US 300's and about +7* on the upper side of things so I may be able to pick up some midrange if I ever get thing thing to work by adding timing.

The fuel differences are about 15% up with the ninja 300 requiring more fuel obviously.... the ninja 250 also revs to 13,250 Vs the ninja 300's 12,750

Hope that info helps any of you other guys on here! @Racer x @swarfman64

I may try to run the stock injectors without screens tonight and see if it helps or I may wait for the UK 250 injectors to come in.... will keep you posted!

[garth285]

OK another update.... more set backs, more progress..

Yesterday I got my zx6r throttle bodies in so I pulled 2 of the injectors, removed the fuel injector screens and had to make new adapter brackets to fit these injectors which were maybe 5mm longer than the stock 300's. So I make the bracket, I tested the system, found I had a damn leaking fuel line, made a new line fuel system was looking great.

Today I threw in a new map, pulled timing, 13k redline, +35% on all fuel maps for the E85..... I start up the bike and it runs for a little, dies, I crank the bike over and over and all of a sudden it stops cranking, fuel was coming out of the turbo dump pipe :-(

I pull the plugs, the injectors and the ECU, I thought at first maybe I was over fueling, the plugs are wet as can be, i cranked it over to get some of the fuel out, then I look at the injectors...... I ran the pump for a split second with no power to injectors and fuel was coming out :-( Injectors were not closing properly, could have gotten debris in the injectors and it stuck slightly open.....

I pulled the other two injectors I had, pulled the screens and dropped them in, Then ran a fuel map that had all ninja 250 fuel maps but with 20% fuel added...... bike ran great! Was idling great and seems to have good throttle response.....

So I am running the bike and all of a sudden I get a o2 sensor error.... found that the o2 was giving a Error 8 message which is a damaged sensor which could have been damaged for being over rich. So I am going to pick up a new o2 tomorrow hopefully.

So there was that and then after a while idling I started to hear my fuel pressure regulator making an odd noise.... well I felt the fuel pump and line and the thing was pretty damn hot, this was one thing I was afraid of with the way I plumbed my fuel system and I'll have to make a change to make a better return to go back into the tank instead of into the inlet of the pump. I let the pump cool down and ran it again and it was running properly again so thats good.

So now my current changes are 200cc/min (UK250/ZX-6r) injectors, UK 250 fuel injection maps with 20% fuel added, my max timing is 30* down from 39* on the stock UK 250.

As soon as I get a new sensor in the bike I'll be able to check out the air fuel when the bike is running and see how the bike runs, also need to find a better fuel filer since I won't be running fuel injector screens anymore.

Will keep you guys updated........

[swarfman64]

Man, your havin a tuff run, no pain no gain tho. keep up the good work.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Man, your havin a tuff run, no pain no gain tho. keep up the good work.

Pshhh your telling me! I'm pretty fed up with the project, wish I could just move on to something else, very unmotivated and I don't want to spend even more money on it, which now isn't much but $30 here $50 here, $XX here, all adds up :-(

[cuong-nutz]

Pay to play kind of sport. I know how you feel. Keep it up though and take breaks

[wankerboy]

Why the E85 and did you try without? Thought I ask

[Somchai]

@garth285 - Shawn, would you please be so kind and tell me the ignition-values from the European 250 Ninjette for the following rpms:
1300, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, 6000, 6500, 7000, 7500, 9000
So I could store the real and correct values in my database. Thank you in advance

[garth285]

@Somchai shoot me your email addy.

[Electronic M]

How much fuel are you adding per lb of boost? and how much timing are you taking out per lb of boost? And what did you set your cold start enrichment to?

[garth285]

Originally Posted by wankerboy

Why the E85 and did you try without? Thought I ask

E85 is amazing for boosted applications :thumb up:

Cools the intake charge down and makes much more power.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Electronic M

How much fuel are you adding per lb of boost? and how much timing are you taking out per lb of boost? And what did you set your cold start enrichment to?

Not really going by a percentage per psi, I am data logging the runs and then making the proper fuel adjustments, shooting for 11.5-11.8:1 under load with boost.

The timing is similar but I tapered the timing down as the boost rises with a max timing of only 30* stock is 39*

No cold start adjustments but I don't do any tuning unless the bike is fully warmed up anyways.

[garth285]

I have not had the time to do anything else to the bike for a little while, I did pick up a new o2 sensor, I have the line to run the return to the top of the tank to keep the temps down, last thing I need to pick up is another fuel filter to run inline to the pump.

Work has kicked my ass pretty bad this week, lots of working threw the night and sleeping during the day, also I picked up a mini lathe to make some wheel spacers for a crf450 to convert the 250 wheels on to street ride it but thats another story....

Hopefully I can get to work on it this week!

[garth285]

So a quick update, ran the bike with the 200cc injectors (stock UK 250's) a UK fuel map with some pulled timing and Rec 90 fuel. Bike still cannot go past 10k rpms under load.
@Racer x - something ran threw my mind while I was typing something up to @swarfman64 - Did you ever find anyone who makes valve springs for the 250? Or find any other valve springs that fit in the 08-12 250r?

Wondering if the 12psi of boost is pushing the valves open???

About to give up on this project, going to put a stock header on the bike and run it to see if it will run properly.

Let me know Racer X!

[swarfman64]

I pushed briefly to 12psi and 12500rpm yesterday with no drama, doesn't mean your springs aren't different or weak tho. At 15 % throttle and 4500 rpm I'm on 3psi boost and by 5200 I'm at 9psi, even tho my exhaust pressures are good it does indicate a turbine housing on the small side.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

I pushed briefly to 12psi and 12500rpm yesterday with no drama, doesn't mean your springs aren't different or weak tho. At 15 % throttle and 4500 rpm I'm on 3psi boost and by 5200 I'm at 9psi, even tho my exhaust pressures are good it does indicate a turbine housing on the small side.

Got ya, your using the 97 and earlier engine as well correct?

It could be weak springs, I am going to put the stock exhaust on the bike and a stock UK tune in the ECU and see how the bike runs. If it runs right up to redline maybe under boost its pushing the valves open?

Trying to give it a go one last time before I part it out!

[swarfman64]

yes, still has the rockers, not buckets

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

yes, still has the rockers, not buckets

Got ya. Well I found in the service manual free length of the 250s and 300s have 39.5mm springs. Found some 600s use about 10mm longer springs and use the same buckets. I wish I could get my hands on a rimac valve spring tester but in can rig something up. I am on a mission to find some springs now lol

[swarfman64]

Progress??

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Progress??

After finding out the 08+ 250/300's have a whopping 18lbs of spring pressure I think this is my problem.

See my valve spring thread and check out the data I have collected - https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223351

If you actually calculate how much surface area the intake valve has at 20mm at one inch and at 12psi of boost it is actually getting close to 50lbs of boost pressure on the back side of that valve per square inch.

I have a few springs on their way for me to do some testing but hopefully I can safely raise the spring pressure and see if it keeps my valve closed.

[DmbShn41]

Keep pushing Shawn, know it gets to be not so much fun, and more like a job, but in the end, its worth it.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by DmbShn41

Keep pushing Shawn, know it gets to be not so much fun, and more like a job, but in the end, its worth it.

Thanks bud! well I just figured out if I run two spring seats I'll make the spring pressure go from 18lbs to 28lbs or with 1.3mm (.050") shim it will go up to 32lbs or spring pressure.

Just waiting on more springs to come in for me to test!

[Racer x]

Would a shim under the spring work?

[garth285]

The stock valve spring seats are 1mm thick. If I double up on those spring seats it will add 10Lbs of pressure so 28Lbs instead of 18. If like more but I do t think we have enough room for more of a spacer. Need to find stiffer springs

[rgx107]

I calculate the surface of a 20 mm valve to 3.14 cm2 or 0.5 sq. inch. The force from 12 psi boost to 6 lbs or around 27 N, compared to the resting force of 81 N. If 20 mm is the outer diameter then the valve seat is narrower, maybe 18 mm, and the force is 22 N. It also depends on the pressure inside the cylinder, though.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by garth285

If you actually calculate how much surface area the intake valve has at 20mm at one inch and at 12psi of boost it is actually getting close to 50lbs of boost pressure on the back side of that valve per square inch.

Ummm... pressure x area = force. I think your math is a little funny...

so 12 psi x whatever area = 50 lbs. Your final number here is a force, not a force per square inch.

Remember that psi is lbs per square inch.

lbs/sq inch x sq inch = lbs

[xenogears]

Updatessssss?!!