Ninja 300 Superbike

[JohnnyBravo]

Sounds like one hell of a ride

[Mikenbiken]

Originally Posted by sprinter

Got a full track weekend in with all of the new stuff on the 300, very pleased with the results! Compared to the first time out when I had the race-tech emulators in the forks, these Andreani full cartridge inserts are on a whole different level. Just did a few tweaks of the damping setup after the first session and then never touched a clicker again all weekend, it was pretty well spot-on. The chassis geometry was good with 15mm of fork tube above the triple, and 327mm eye-to-eye length on the Ohlins shock.

I have basically the same suspension setup you do. See pics:



Anyway, I've been trying to find baseline chassis/geometry settings before my first trackday with the 300 (4/20/15 at Chuckwalla), and I found your post. Curious where you are measuring fork height since the top of the triple slopes a bit and is not consistant? Also curious what oil height you run with your Andreani cartridges? My cartridges came with generic instructions and a spec sheet. Generic instructions were in English and were clearly not Ninja 250/300 specific. They specified 115mm oil height. That seems pretty high. The spec sheet was in Italian, and it said 160mm oil height. Curious what you used?

Thanks is advance for any help.

[sprinter]

Originally Posted by Mikenbiken

I have basically the same suspension setup you do. See pics:

Anyway, I've been trying to find baseline chassis/geometry settings before my first trackday with the 300 (4/20/15 at Chuckwalla), and I found your post. Curious where you are measuring fork height since the top of the triple slopes a bit and is not consistant? Also curious what oil height you run with your Andreani cartridges? My cartridges came with generic instructions and a spec sheet. Generic instructions were in English and were clearly not Ninja 250/300 specific. They specified 115mm oil height. That seems pretty high. The spec sheet was in Italian, and it said 160mm oil height. Curious what you used?

Thanks is advance for any help.

Fork height measured on the outer edge of the triple. Oil height is at 150mm. It works pretty well, good support for braking and not much wallowing in fast turns. Overall the chassis is still very flexy, so there's only so much you can do with suspension setup. You still have to ride what the bike will give you, you can't force it to be like a "real" sportbike, so don't get too mired down in suspension setup details.

[sprinter]

I realized I hadn't updated this thread in quite a while so I figured I'd give a season wrap-up and talk about what's next with the bike! I really only got to race once this year, in May at the TrackAddix Ninja 300 Cup at Raceway Park of the Midlands. I won the race, so that was a good showing. I went to Road America for July 4th race weekend to race the CCS round, but never made it through practice on Friday. I had been having issues with the bike slipping out of 5th gear ever since last year and had never torn it apart. Well that issue kept getting progressively worse, and during the practice in the afternoon at RA it was so bad that I could not get the bike to stay in 5th gear AT ALL! It slipped back from 5th to 4th on me right in the middle of the carousel and about threw me off the track, so I pitted in and loaded the bike back in the trailer and called it quits. I was really bummed since the bike was fast, and I was having a great time running around in the practice with another 300.

Time got the best of me the rest of the summer and I never had a chance to get the engine out and address the tranny issue. Now that it's the off-season, we finally got around to it, everything is apart and we're sending the gears off to get back-cut 3rd-6th gears. Also going to make some modifications to the shift star to allow the detent arm to sit more securely. Maybe some other changes too, we'll see. As far as the rest of the bike, I'm going to get back to the weight-reduction plan and start hacking off some more unneeded parts of the frame. I really want to get the bike down to 300 lbs. not sure if that's going to be possible since it's 330 lbs. now, but I'll get as close as I can. I think I'm going to get rid of the PC-V and switch over to the Rapid Bike Racing module instead, maybe pick up a couple more HP. Also going to install a nicer aftermarket slipper clutch. Not sure what else at this point?

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by sprinter

I realized I hadn't updated this thread in quite a while so I figured I'd give a season wrap-up and talk about what's next with the bike! I really only got to race once this year, in May at the TrackAddix Ninja 300 Cup at Raceway Park of the Midlands. I won the race, so that was a good showing. I went to Road America for July 4th race weekend to race the CCS round, but never made it through practice on Friday. I had been having issues with the bike slipping out of 5th gear ever since last year and had never torn it apart. Well that issue kept getting progressively worse, and during the practice in the afternoon at RA it was so bad that I could not get the bike to stay in 5th gear AT ALL! It slipped back from 5th to 4th on me right in the middle of the carousel and about threw me off the track, so I pitted in and loaded the bike back in the trailer and called it quits. I was really bummed since the bike was fast, and I was having a great time running around in the practice with another 300.

Time got the best of me the rest of the summer and I never had a chance to get the engine out and address the tranny issue. Now that it's the off-season, we finally got around to it, everything is apart and we're sending the gears off to get back-cut 3rd-6th gears. Also going to make some modifications to the shift star to allow the detent arm to sit more securely. Maybe some other changes too, we'll see. As far as the rest of the bike, I'm going to get back to the weight-reduction plan and start hacking off some more unneeded parts of the frame. I really want to get the bike down to 300 lbs. not sure if that's going to be possible since it's 330 lbs. now, but I'll get as close as I can. I think I'm going to get rid of the PC-V and switch over to the Rapid Bike Racing module instead, maybe pick up a couple more HP. Also going to install a nicer aftermarket slipper clutch. Not sure what else at this point?

Maybe this https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248029 might give you some idea...

[sprinter]

OOOohhhhh............ here's what I want to do! Only in green and painted to look like the ZX-RR MotoGP bike!

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by sprinter

OOOohhhhh............ here's what I want to do! Only in green and painted to look like the ZX-RR MotoGP bike!

Make sure you include the key features ICON lists, especially this:
"...and quickly broadcast race updates to their social networks."

I'm sure the mere knowledge that you can tweet your awesomeness will shave seconds off your lap times.

[sprinter]

Anyone make triples to put USD forks on, or will I have to get some custom ones made? What about the swingarm, that looks like a stock swingarm that has had a new chunk welded to the top of it, anyone make a racing swingarm that will bolt on to the 300 or will the swingarm off another bike fit up?

[sprinter]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Make sure you include the key features ICON lists, especially this:
"...and quickly broadcast race updates to their social networks."

I'm sure the mere knowledge that you can tweet your awesomeness will shave seconds off your lap times.

Yeah, probably don't need that part!

[toEleven]

RE: triples for USD forks
It would be an odd route given the impression I get from the rest of your thread, but I recall seeing a GSX-R front end on another member's ninjette. A quick poke around should probably nab the how-to. I'll update this post if I find it. Even if you don't use the entire front, his or her triple solution may be applicable.

I have no idea with regard to the swingarm question, other than custom builds.

[sprinter]

Originally Posted by toEleven

RE: triples for USD forks
It would be an odd route given the impression I get from the rest of your thread, but I recall seeing a GSX-R front end on another member's ninjette. A quick poke around should probably nab the how-to. I'll update this post if I find it. Even if you don't use the entire front, his or her triple solution may be applicable.

I have no idea with regard to the swingarm question, other than custom builds.

Why would you think that would be odd to want better forks? I'd LOVE to get rid of all the excess flex this thing has, the spindly stock forks are a major source of it, as is the swingarm. As long as I haven't midinterpreted the CCS Ultralight Thunderbike class rules, a swingarm and fork change are still legal as long as it remains 300cc.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by sprinter

Why would you think that would be odd to want better forks?

I would think it odd for you to grab used GSX-R forks, not odd to want better forks. My apologies, but i had this baseless thought that your willingness to pay for high quality parts would make custom solutions more likely than the ever abundant supply of GSX-R parts out there.

The forum member I was thinking of @nope has a thread here, with details in this post. He does point out that the stock bodywork wouldn't fit over his new front end, which may be a relevant consideration. I'll keep looking for better info from those who've been there/done that. All the GSX-R parts currently in my garage are attached to an old CB750

Edit to add: Your bike is awesome, not sure I mentioned that. Looking forward to more (and more frequent!) thread updates.

[sprinter]

Originally Posted by toEleven

I would think it odd for you to grab used GSX-R forks, not odd to want better forks. My apologies, but i had this baseless thought that your willingness to pay for high quality parts would make custom solutions more likely than the ever abundant supply of GSX-R parts out there.

The forum member I was thinking of @nope has a thread here, with details in this post. He does point out that the stock bodywork wouldn't fit over his new front end, which may be a relevant consideration. I'll keep looking for better info from those who've been there/done that. All the GSX-R parts currently in my garage are attached to an old CB750

Any kind of USD fork would be a big improvement, and I could get a racing cartidge kit to put in pretty much any of them. Or just get the triples and then put Ohlins R&T forks in them. The key is the triples to fit the USD forks, I haven't seen a bolt-on solution for that yet for the 300, I'll keep looking.

[choneofakind]

The 300 uses the same size head bearings as the 250, no?

There were folks who swapped over USD forks/triples to 250's. I seem to remember that it only required sourcing bearings that fit, but I may be wrong. All bearing manufacturers/retailers should be able to size you some tapered rollers in various sizes.

You should be able to figure out what triples you want, then order bearings to fit based on OD and ID of the fits in question. Might even get lucky and find that bigger Kawi's with USD forks are using the same diameter bearing races, who knows?

Bearings manufacturers: Timken, FAG, SKF, etc. I know there's a convenient kit available from All Balls Racing (unknown manufacturer) for all generations of the 250, I'm not aware if that works on the 300 or not, but it would be a good place to start when referencing bearing race dimensions for other bikes as well and figuring out what triples to swap.

Anything will fit with some fab work and/or creativity, the trick is just making it work without as little hassle as possible.

[whitejr60]

Originally Posted by sprinter

Any kind of USD fork would be a big improvement, and I could get a racing cartidge kit to put in pretty much any of them. Or just get the triples and then put Ohlins R&T forks in them. The key is the triples to fit the USD forks, I haven't seen a bolt-on solution for that yet for the 300, I'll keep looking.

I thought I would partically answer your swingarm question here rather then the PM. Yes, you remember correctly, I swapped the swingarm on my bike to a Kawasaki 250 aluminum swingarm. It's the same arm I have used on many different supermonos for year with power up to 90hp. But I also added a ZX-6R lower linkage with bearings rather the bronze bushing that the 300 unit uses. I had Kyle Racing build a TTX GP Shock but I machined three extra extra clevis to give me a wide ride height adjustability. The swap require making a few bit to bolt it on the arm and linkage, but in was nothing extreme. I can post picture of the bits if needed. I have enclosed a picture of the arm. I'll send you some additional info in a PM.

Up front I opt'd for the 04 43mm R6 forks, if you recall. You can still get open or close cartridges for these and they are lighter than the inverted forks. I paired these with the Dymag magnesium 3.5/5.0 wheels with a single 310mm rotor and 6 piston PFM caliper I had laying around. I found a set of Attack triples but they don't really help because the neutral offset is at 35mm. So, with the #6 insert you're only 1mm more offset than the R6 triples but add back some weight and you can't use risers due to the design.

The problem you face is the ninja has a massive 50mm offset which is more of a classic bike offset not anything modern. I don't know any modern inverted fork with more than a 35mm offset, which yields a 115mm of trail, while stock is 93mm. I selected the R6 forks because they had the most offset in a modern fork that still have cartridges available. I vary between 100-102mm for trail on my bike depending on how I have it setup. I'm still experimenting to find the setup I like most.

I send you additional swingarm info in a PM.
IMG_9968.jpg

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

...
I know there's a convenient kit available from All Balls Racing (unknown manufacturer)
...

As far as I can tell, they manufacture their own. Every part I have from them has their stamp and their part number, and nothing I've located gives any indication of outsourcing (beyond the whole 'sending specs to some offshore factory' sort of setup one commonly finds). Maybe some other reader is better informed.

[choneofakind]

^^ that's my experience as well, my all balls stuff came self labeled.

I know that some companies in other industries have a history of agreements that allow for manufacture by one company and label by another. I don't know the structure of their agreements are, so I'm waiting on more info, but it's not really a big deal to me one way or another.

[whitejr60]

Originally Posted by toEleven

As far as I can tell, they manufacture their own. Every part I have from them has their stamp and their part number, and nothing I've located gives any indication of outsourcing (beyond the whole 'sending specs to some offshore factory' sort of setup one commonly finds). Maybe some other reader is better informed.

Allballs racing is a distributor of KML bearings, they have no manufacturing capability.

[Somchai]

@sprinter, some question you should ask yourself:
When I prepare my motorcycle for the race track, which issues arise before the conversion:

- How long will I generally be able to drive fast? More than 25 minutes, half an hour maybe?
- How much will my bike actually consume at this time? Approximately 4-7 liters?
- Must the installed heavy orig tank with 17 liters then remain on the bike?
- Since I'm not traveling with a passenger, how much can I remove from the rear frame?
- No more headlights (... and fan) how high is the power consumption of the bike?
- Is there maybe an alternator with less power?
- All the hoses, which crisscross stretch across motorbike, which of them do I really need?
- Could I perhaps shorten the length of cables to save weight?
- Do I need a thermostat + its housing?
- Which cable from my harness do I really need?
- And do I really must have a fuse box?
- How small could the Battery be, if I still have an e-starter?
- The rear brake, do I use it, what does it weigh, is there maybe a lighter one?
- The front brakes, sure - will be used, but is there a lighter one?
- The axes and bolts which is used, could I change them to aluminum, which must be from Titan?
- What do I use more: low weight or higher power?
- More power in place lower weight, how high are the benefits?
- Is it possible to equip the bike with things like traction control and data analysis as in GP or Superbike?
- Do I actually need an electric starter, or an neutral switch?
- Steel plates in the clutch ... is aluminum possible?
- Do I dependent on the original ECU?
In order to obtain a certain enlightenment, first you have to know how much each part weighs and what function it performs at all.

And as tipp from me: Don't concentrate to many on the engine, since this could break. Instead go for lightweight...
Good luck

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by whitejr60

... to a Kawasaki 250 aluminum swingarm. It's the same arm I have used on many different supermonos for year with power up to 90hp.
Attachment 38745

This is awesome. Do you have more details on this?

[sprinter]

@whitejr60 So how about getting some triples made with 50mm offset, 51mm top/53mm bottom, with the Ninja 300/250 size steering stem, and use a set of Showa BP forks off of a modern ZX-6R? I can probably get some made reasonably if I order a few sets of them, we have suppiers in Europe we use for Ducati stuff that I'm sure would do it. Then use a ZX-6R front axle & wheel, and one radial caliper and rotor?

[sharky nrk]

Another reason to think about not using a set of upside down forks is that they may be TOO stiff. I know that on the f2/f3 honda race bike alot of people recommend not using USD fork as they are too still and transfer WAY too much stress to the steering head.

The steering head on the ninjette is a spindly little sucker and likely to flex ALOT if all the flex is transmitted from the forks to the steering head. Reducing the flex of the forks does not reduce the force generated, simply transfers it to another area of the bike.

[sharky nrk]

^^ this is just conjecture and theory as I have never ridden a ninjette with USD forks but its pretty common knowledge in the Honda crowd.

[sprinter]

The forks are pretty much the worst part of the chassis to flex, so any time that can be resolved I think it's going to be a positive. I've never had an issue with any race bike swapping over to USD forks, granted I haven't done it on a micro-bike yet but I did it on SV650's, Ninja 650's, etc. with great results.

[whitejr60]

Originally Posted by sprinter

@whitejr60 Then use a ZX-6R front axle & wheel, and one radial caliper and rotor?

Sprinter, that could work but you quoted the specs (51/53) for the 09-12 Kyb fork with dual internals, 2 pieces calipers and 300mm disc. Why not use the 13-16 Showa (50/53) units with single internals (lighter, if you're not using aftermarket cartridge), monoblock calipers and 310mm rotor?

My biggest concern would be that this goes the opposite direction on weight that you've worked so diligently to remove.

Truthfully, I ended up making the changes I did because I happened to have scales out when I disassemble the 300. I mistakenly start weighing parts and realized how heavy they were compared to spare bits I had laying around the shop.

I actually had to stop myself, because at one point I grabbed a spare Cagiva Mito Aluminum chassis off the shelf and started retro fitting the engine into it. This would have yielded a sweet handling little bike and easily dropped the bike into the 260lb range. The Mito has 25° rake (300=27°) and with the swingarm I selected (I have 4 options) drop 2.5" off the wheelbase putting me at 52.76" verses the 300's 55.31".

I think with what you want to do visually and performance wise, the Mito chassis swap might be your best bet. They are plentifully and cheap, it was a easy swap and you could use most of the bits you already have. You use 748/916 forks (Mito fork are not adjustable) in the Mito Clamps which you mate to your brembo caliper and Marchesini Wheel but would need a 320 rotor. I'd use a lightly modified Mito swingarm which would give you a 54.1 wheelbase. Your Ohlins is the right length just needs a couple bits machined to bolt on to the Mito. Here's a picture of a YSVP 350 conversation of a mate of a mate in Holland, just to wet your appetite.

Or I can hook you up with a Factory KTM 250 GP chassis that Mika Kallio use to ride, pic. Complete bike pictured has already had a LC4 690 retrofitted but one more frame available.

[whitejr60]

The best thing about the Mito is I know what you need to do and most parts are readily available, I just fitted GSXR 1000 forks with Attack GP triples to a Mito Frame. So, Spinter it's whatever you can imagine!

Let me know if you want more info, you have my personal email.

Cheers

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by whitejr60

Or I can hook you up with a Factory KTM 250 GP chassis that Mika Kallio use to ride, pic. Complete bike pictured has already had a LC4 690 retrofitted but one more frame available.

Sweet goodness ......... NOMNOMNOMNOM ........

This now I HAVE to hear more about.

[sprinter]

@whitejr60 Well, that would be a fun ride for sure, but I do still want to keep this bike eligible for the CCS Ultralight Thunderbike class, I think that requires a stock frame. I wouldn't mind having a 2nd small bike, but if I have another one I'd want something with more power, 65HP and around 285 lbs. would be a ton of fun. Just not sure what bike that is. I've already been down the SV650/Ninja650 path in the past, and at one point I had a 312 lb. SV650 with 85 HP but it was a time bomb. I really do like the size of the Ninja 300, the little bike with short wheelbase is a hoot on the track, even with the slack geometry it turns just fine due to the short wheelbase.

So back to the front end swap, I had contact with one of our Italian suppliers and he says no problem to make me some triples, I'd probably get a handful of them made and sell them to whoever else is crazy enough to do a swap like this. I could do 50/53 for the later-model Showa forks. I'm not too worried about the weight of the forks, with a lightweight front wheel on there it won't be a problem. I can get a lighter wheel with that setup that I currently have with the stock forks, the Marchesini forged aluminum was the lightest I could find for the stock 300 front end. With a ZX-6R front end I could get a forged magnesium wheel which would be a couple lbs. lighter. Do you know what the fork spacing is on the ZX-6R front ends?

[whitejr60]

Do you know what the fork spacing is on the ZX-6R front ends?

I will post the spacing tonight, as I've been working with to many different front ends and I don't want to give you the wrong info. I'll also weigh my spare 2015 ZX-6R forks for you and a forged Marchesini wheel. The wheel will be a little off as it's Moto2 spec 3.75 x17 not the std 3.5" dimension.

I can help you get into a Supermono, it usually the only lightweight bike you can build that have no rules other than displacement. Multiple paths to get there also.

[whitejr60]

The 2013-2016 ZX-6R front spacing is 209mm.

[howlinhoss]

Reviving an old thread. Any pictures of how you modified the mounting of your cluster?

[pattonme]

There's nothing wrong with 100mm of trail it's a "safe" number.
The only Mito I ever saw was at the annual show. They actually sold them in the States? And in such quantities you can find frames for the asking?

[Mohawk]

Originally Posted by whitejr60

I thought I would partically answer your swingarm question here rather then the PM. Yes, you remember correctly, I swapped the swingarm on my bike to a Kawasaki 250 aluminum swingarm. It's the same arm I have used on many different supermonos for year with power up to 90hp. But I also added a ZX-6R lower linkage with bearings rather the bronze bushing that the 300 unit uses. I had Kyle Racing build a TTX GP Shock but I machined three extra extra clevis to give me a wide ride height adjustability. The swap require making a few bit to bolt it on the arm and linkage, but in was nothing extreme. I can post picture of the bits if needed. I have enclosed a picture of the arm. I'll send you some additional info in a PM.

Up front I opt'd for the 04 43mm R6 forks, if you recall. You can still get open or close cartridges for these and they are lighter than the inverted forks. I paired these with the Dymag magnesium 3.5/5.0 wheels with a single 310mm rotor and 6 piston PFM caliper I had laying around. I found a set of Attack triples but they don't really help because the neutral offset is at 35mm. So, with the #6 insert you're only 1mm more offset than the R6 triples but add back some weight and you can't use risers due to the design.

The problem you face is the ninja has a massive 50mm offset which is more of a classic bike offset not anything modern. I don't know any modern inverted fork with more than a 35mm offset, which yields a 115mm of trail, while stock is 93mm. I selected the R6 forks because they had the most offset in a modern fork that still have cartridges available. I vary between 100-102mm for trail on my bike depending on how I have it setup. I'm still experimenting to find the setup I like most.

I send you additional swingarm info in a PM.
Attachment 38745

That's a KR1-S swingarm, I just added one to my ZZR250 to match the KR1-S 41mm forks setup, that I just upgraded using VTR1000 upper stanchions & cartrisges, with VFR800 cartridge valves & springs. Gives much better suspension & rebound damping ! Only addition required is the lug for the brake torque arm, plus a liner for the swinagarm to make up for the difference between swingarm pivot bolt & bearing diameter. I used 2mm wall SS, 16mm id, 20mm od, fits perfect. I also added 4 swingarm pivot needle bearings, rather than the two stock ones.

Not rode the bike yet, still working on other areas, but had it off the bench for a bounce test & it feels much better at both ends now & nicely balanced.

[howlinhoss]

@sprinter Did you run a 90 degree banjo on your front brake line to mate with your Brembo RCS mc?

[DanteCoal]

@sprinter, a quick question;

How are you liking the Scorpion exhaust? That's the one I've had my eye on, and I haven't had much luck finding reviews on the slip-on or full from any 300 owners. Any feedback you could give would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by howlinhoss

@sprinter Did you run a 90 degree banjo on your front brake line to mate with your Brembo RCS mc?

I use a 20 degree bend on mine. When you angle the MC and lever down, a 90 degree will cause interference.

[howlinhoss]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I use a 20 degree bend on mine. When you angle the MC and lever down, a 90 degree will cause interference.

Are you running a Brembo RCS 15 MC?

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by howlinhoss

Are you running a Brembo RCS 15 MC?

yessir. That's where the "on mine" comes from.

[howlinhoss]

Originally Posted by mgentz

yessir. That's where the "on mine" comes from.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have a Speigler line on my 300 I am trying to reuse. I think it came with a 20 degree banjo. Let's hope it all fits.

[mgentz]

I have pics, but it sux trying to attach them from my phone. For confirmation otherwise, @rojoracing53 had a thread that shows his setup.