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Old June 5th, 2009, 10:08 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpelle View Post
First post here, and a question:

This mod looks like it only affects the mixture at close-to-idle. Do I assume that MPG will not appreciably be affected?
The mod affects the entire power band of the bike, increased fuel to balance out mods that may have increased air flow like exaust or air filters etc. I think it may make a very insignificant decrease in mileage(I get like maybe 5 miles less a tank). The increase in performance is significant...
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Old June 5th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpelle View Post
First post here, and a question:

This mod looks like it only affects the mixture at close-to-idle. Do I assume that MPG will not appreciably be affected?
define appreciably.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 06:57 PM   #43
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It probably will drop a tad because the bike would be so much better to ride, tempting you to twist the throttle a little more.
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Old June 15th, 2009, 01:02 AM   #44
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i really want to shim the needles but i dont think i will be able to do it myself i am not sure how much the shop will charge me for that but i am assuming it will be around $100 wish there was someone from the forums who lived close by to do the shimming for me
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Old June 15th, 2009, 01:06 AM   #45
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Start a new thread asking for help in the bay area and see if there is someone in your area responds.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 12:07 AM   #46
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Ok, I definitely need this mod....where are you guys finding these washers? Where can I gt them?

Thanks!
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Old August 6th, 2009, 01:30 AM   #47
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http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24845&
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Old November 5th, 2011, 11:39 AM   #48
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I just want to make sure I get this right. For a complete stock 2012 250R 1 washer, what if I remove the snorkel? Would that be 2 washers? Thanks
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Old November 5th, 2011, 03:45 PM   #49
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I DEfinately need this mod done. Will a dealer do this for me or is it done as a DIY only. And what exactley does this do that makes it run bettter? I have the bogging starts no matter how warmed up I get it and it is a concern especially at red lights. Thanks for the info.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 06:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladyninja08 View Post
I DEfinately need this mod done. Will a dealer do this for me or is it done as a DIY only. And what exactley does this do that makes it run bettter? I have the bogging starts no matter how warmed up I get it and it is a concern especially at red lights. Thanks for the info.
If you haven't found an answer yet...
Usually a dealer will suggest/direct you to buy a jet kit (usually $90), in addition to the labor cost for installing it and dialing it in. The jet kit would have adjustable needles in it that would allow finer tweaking than using stock needles and washers, as well as parts for altering other parts of the fuel flow regulation system. The washers are almost exclusively a DIY, unless you've got a very good, flexible shop.

Essentially adding washers under the needles adds more fuel (richens the mix) in the midrange where our bikes are notoriously lean from the factory. A jet kit would also include a range of main jets to adjust the top end fuel flow. If you're sticking with a stock intake-exhaust setup, washers will likely be about all you need, maybe a little fiddling with the pilot jets (control gas flow for very low end/idle, but can affect flow across the range), which is fairly easy if you're patient and have a few tools on hand.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #51
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Thank You Momaru. I probably will buy a kit and have the dealer do the work. The dealer quoted me 3 hrs labor and its a lot too involved for me . Thanks for explaining it.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:11 PM   #52
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3 hrs labor ??? if it's a little too involved for you, find a friend who is mechanically inclined and experienced working on cars/bikes and read through some DIY's and take a crack at it. 2 heads is better than one. If you can't get it right, set it all back the way you found it and then go to the dealer to have them jet for you.

3 hrs labor is awfully expensive for something that just requires patience and time
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Old November 15th, 2011, 09:25 PM   #53
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May take a few hours to get things dialed in. The 'two washers' suggestion is just that; doesn't work for everyone. But I agree that 3 hours is a little much. An experienced mechanic (or owner) can get the bike stripped/dressed in 15 mins or less. A few more for the tank and you're there. Maybe two hours, if they need to strip/dress the bike and have to make a few separate runs to pick good settings.

That said, proper tuning can be an all-day job, but you very very rarely get that with just a straight up kit install.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 08:07 PM   #54
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Thanks guys I will check into some more quotes and look into recruiting a mechanical inclined helper as well
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Old November 17th, 2011, 11:53 AM   #55
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I think I want to give this a try..just wanted to make sure this is really as simple as the instructions said. Remove the cover, pull the needle out, slide the washer(s) onto the needle, and put the needle back in? Is it really that easy, other than making sure the boot stays seated & the spring is aligned during re-assembly?
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Old November 17th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #56
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I think I want to give this a try..just wanted to make sure this is really as simple as the instructions said. Remove the cover, pull the needle out, slide the washer(s) onto the needle, and put the needle back in? Is it really that easy, other than making sure the boot stays seated & the spring is aligned during re-assembly?
After removing the fairings & gas tank, pretty much it is that simple.

Few other warnings/suggestions though:
The carb caps are under spring pressure, so they may pop up at ya. Make VERY sure you don't poke a hole in the diaphragm (expensive to replace and a pain to repair) and that you get the needles back into the correct carb side. I'm not 100% sure about pre-gens, but the new gens have two different OEM needles (one per carb/cylinder) and it matters which side is which. The washers will sit "under" the needle, so they will fall off into the diaphragm (what you called the boot) if you don't hold onto them while re-loading the needles. And finally, pay attention to where the vacuum lines go/how they're routed BEFORE you take things apart. You might even label them with some tape if you're not sure... Most of the hoses are pretty easy, but there's a few that are easy to mix up.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 09:02 AM   #57
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I tried this mod last night. No go. Everything came apart & went back together perfectly. The bike fired right up and ran on choke exactly how it normally does. Reved it up a few times, seemed to be fine. Kicked it into first, and it choked and died as I attempted to accelerate out into the street. Fired back up & attempted to ride. HUGE dead area between 2000 + 6000 RPMS, then, like an engine with big turbo lag, it would pick up and haul ass after 6000.

The O.D. of these washers was a couple mm smaller than 3/8, so I thought they'd work. When I took it all apart again, the washers had gotten lodged in the plastic retainers on the bottom of the springs, which caused the needles to stick in the 'up' position. Naturally, this causes very bad running <6000 rpm.

Should the needle be sliding up and down through the washer, or should the washer be traveling up with the needle? Whatever the case, the washers traveled upward, got stuck and then the needles couldn't drop back down.

So...should I be using smaller washers so they can't get stuck in the retainers, or larger ones so the retainers sit on top of the washers?

Removed the washers & re-assembled. It runs exactly like it did before, so I don't think there's anything wrong anywhere.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #58
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Update: Dug into it again and added a tiny neoprene washer to each needle. Fits snugly around the top and up against the head of the needle. A hair thicker than the stainless steel washers that didn't work.

I don't notice a huge difference, but there seems to be a little better response off idle.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #59
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That range you're having problems (2k-6k) is largely controlled by the pilot screws, I'd look through some of the other tuning DIYs (this one by Vex is the main one for pilot jets here, and this is the one for shimming the carb needles, by Kkim). Frankly I'm too braindead from work to make a suggestion about which way you want to adjust the pilot screws, but I *think* you may want to push them in a smidge, as raising the needles has introduced a lot more gas in the midrange, possibly richening the mix overmuch. Definitely take a look through the tuning DIYs, or go to thedark side & read thru the intake FAQs @ ninja250.org

Regarding the washers; the needle, washers, and retainer all move together as the boot moves up and down with the diaphragm. Doesn't matter overmuch that the washers were a bit too snug in the retainer, so long as the retainer fit snugly on the needle top to keep it from coming up on its own (the spring & retainer are there to keep it seated in the plastic part of the diaphragm slide (hard plastic part).
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Old November 19th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #60
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The 2K - 6K problem cleared up when I replaced the #4 washers with some tiny neoprene ones that fit snugly under the needle heads. I think what happened was the steel washers lodged in the retainers at an angle, trapping the needle where the head wasn't seated at the top of the retainer like it should be. When I pulled the springs out, the needles and washers came out with them. Everything's solved now...running great. My mixture screws are still sealed, so I won't be messing with those unless I experience a running problem. I really don't want to take the carbs out.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #61
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Huzzah! Glad you got things figured out. I'd assumed the washers were sitting flat, & allowing your needle to behave normally, glad you tracked it down!

Some materials don't do so well in environments rich in gasoline & fumes, might want to check on them in a weeks to see how that rubber's holding up.

I agree re: messin' with pilots/other tuning; if it ain't broke, don't fix it :P
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Old November 21st, 2011, 08:08 AM   #62
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Good idea to check the neoprene ones just in case

if the rubber ones give you any trouble, the metal washers that work are SAE #4 washers (i believe). they're barely larger in diameter than the head of the needle and don't have any issues hanging up on anything.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 08:32 AM   #63
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That kinda makes me wonder what I bought. The package said #4, so I went with it. Hmm....

I'm hoping the washers I used will be ok, since they are actually un-used parts I bought for my '94 Ninja carb a few years ago. (92055 RING-O,PILOT ADJUST). They sit on top of the pilot air screws, but since they fit the jet needle perfectly, I went with them.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 06:13 PM   #64
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-- I'm about to put two or three washers in since it's much cheaper and easier than rejecting with new needles. Since it'll have a new exhaust, I may then pull the snorkel out and see how it likes that, too. I'm not looking to race...I just want the better sound and looks and weight of exhaust, but don't want it to run too lean or rich or hurt my engine.

I'll be reading up on how to determine whether it's too rich or lean.

How much do dealerships charge to rejet (after you pay for the $90 dynojet kit)?
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Old November 21st, 2011, 06:26 PM   #65
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How much do dealerships charge to rejet (after you pay for the $90 dynojet kit)?
too much for how easy it is if you do it yourself. People have posted here that their dealership quoted them 3 hours work time to re-jet.

If you want to rejet, learn how to diagnose carbs, and then do it yourself. Then get it dyno'd to get the mix perfect if you want the bike running perfectly. If you try a million different combinations of jets and washers and still can't seem to get it right, then put it all back the way you found it, and take it to the dealership to have them do it for you
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Old March 21st, 2012, 10:17 AM   #66
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what size washers do you need?
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Old March 21st, 2012, 02:12 PM   #67
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SAE #4. Basically as small as you can find.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #68
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I'm pretty sure my bike (stock '08) has the usual symptoms of a bike that should be shimmed. It has a hard time starting unless it's on full choke, rough idle initially, takes around 10 minutes to warm up, etc. However, I do smell a pretty strong gas smell from the exhaust. This is usually a sign of the bike running too rich, correct?
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:01 PM   #69
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So shimmed my carbs today and runs like crap around 7k rpm it's struggles and decreases in power up until 10,000 rpm... any suggestions?
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Old November 13th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #70
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Will this MOD void my factory warranty?
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:38 PM   #71
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Hi all, I am a new member here. I just want to ask my bike don't have any problem hesitate or bog with stock muffler or slip on muffler from stop to take off. I try to shim 1 washer each needle but my bike is not rev as stock jetting, then I try to add 1 washer again, but at 7k rpm, they like hesitate then rev to 10k. So my question here, should I shim my bike?
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ps : mixuture set L (2 1/2), R (1 3/4). PJ 38 MJ 98
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:42 PM   #72
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2012 with 1800 miles. Bought new with 1 mile on it.

Here in El Paso, TX the temps are usually in the 30-40s in the morning, warming up to the 60-70s in the afternoon. I am at about 3800ft and in a dry/dusty environment. In the morning, the bike has a tendancy to bog for a split second, then take off into the higher rpms. The bike tends to seem more powerful at high rpms while cold. Once the bike is at operating temperature, the low-mid power smooths out and top end seems to tone down. From my limited knowledge, I am assuming that I should at least start with one washer. Maybe later go one size larger on the main. Am I correct on my assumption?

My bike is completely stock, snorkel and all.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #73
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Completed this modification. Went with (2) #4 washers for each. I have noticed something different though. Now with the shimming, I notice easier starting, but also noticed that when I let off the choke to fast, it dies. This mostly happens when it's cold. The temps are in the 20s-30s in El Paso, and slightly higher in S.A. and the Dallas area. I didn't notice it so much in S.A. or the Dallas area though.

Could the shimming and decreasing cold temperatures cause this to happen? completely stock, I did not notice any sudden stalling when I reduced choke. After modifying, I have to slightly move reduce choke otherwise I will see spikes and sudden drops in idle as well as stalling. Other members on this forum said it could be a result of a cold engine. I will go ahead and check/adjust the carb sync.

Once the engine is warm, I don't have any issues. It runs great. I do get a small fuel smell from the exhaust. Could this be a rich condition causing the erratic up/down idling and stalling while cold? I will remove one washer from each side and see where I end up after that. I will keep you all posted.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #74
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How soon are you turning off the choke? As it gets colder, the warm up time increases, as does the time you should leave the choke applied. As the bike warms, you should decrease the amount of choke a bit at a time until completely off. Not all at once.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 11:09 AM   #75
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It will do the same if I do it after 5 minutes. I will record it and post the video.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 12:42 PM   #76
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Shimming Help

I have a Leo Vince Slip on on my 2012 250. When i decelerate it makes small backfire pops. also takes a while to warm up even with choke fully on. Have not removed the snorkle either. Live at sea level and have 1600 mile on it. Should I shim the needles? would that take care of the problem?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:35 PM   #77
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I have a Leo Vince Slip on on my 2012 250. When i decelerate it makes small backfire pops. also takes a while to warm up even with choke fully on. Have not removed the snorkle either. Live at sea level and have 1600 mile on it. Should I shim the needles? would that take care of the problem?
Popping on decel comes when you quickly and completely close the throttle, doing so causes a lean condition. Ease the throttle closed.

One reason you hear it (popping) so well is because you have an empty tin can instead of a heavily baffled steel drum. The popping noise can be reduced by doing the kleen air delete mod, which stops the extra air entering into the already lean exhaust. You can also shim the needles to add a tiny bit of richness to the mix.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 09:33 PM   #78
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Quote:
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Popping on decel comes when you quickly and completely close the throttle, doing so causes a lean condition. Ease the throttle closed.

One reason you hear it (popping) so well is because you have an empty tin can instead of a heavily baffled steel drum. The popping noise can be reduced by doing the kleen air delete mod, which stops the extra air entering into the already lean exhaust. You can also shim the needles to add a tiny bit of richness to the mix.
Thank you! That helps
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Old January 13th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #79
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did the shimming too after i mounted this beastly exhaust, she did run great,,id highly recommend it!
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 09:00 AM   #80
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Just did this. Added 2 #4 washers per needle and the bike is acting so much better. She seems so happy now great mod.... recommended for everyone.... such a huge improvement. ... Thanks kkim
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