have any of you guys ever used a Green Light Trigger on your pregen?

[Wanderer]

I am getting stuck at left turn signals a lot and having to run them!!!

Do these things really work?

How do you install them on your bike? I don't want some ugly crap hanging on my bike if possible.

Anyone?

[Triple Jim]

Here's some reading on the subject:

http://pnwriders.com/threads/the-gul...review.180950/

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Here's some reading on the subject:

http://pnwriders.com/threads/the-gul...review.180950/

Thanks Jim.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Here's some reading on the subject:

http://pnwriders.com/threads/the-gul...review.180950/

That link didn't sound too hopeful.

I guess I'll have to think of something else to try. *sigh*

I know that I'm going to get stopped by a cop someday for running those damn left turn signals...

[Triple Jim]

In NC, there's a specific law about lights that don't change, that allows you to go after you've been sitting there for three minutes, and if it's safe to proceed. Three minutes is a long time, but unless a cop is watching you the whole time, I guess it would be hard to know how long you've been sitting there. I go when it's obvious that the cycle missed giving me the green.

http://www.bikernewsonline.com/2007/...-red-light.htm

[NevadaWolf]

I just looked up to see if Arizona has a version of a Safe on Red law (Nevada just passed one a few years ago). Doesn't look like it yet: http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2013/12/08/...un-red-lights/

[Triple Jim]

I just found this, which makes it look like it's OK to run the red, since a light that doesn't sense you is "inoperative".

http://azbikelaw.org/what-exactly-is...raffic-signal/

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I just looked up to see if Arizona has a version of a Safe on Red law (Nevada just passed one a few years ago). Doesn't look like it yet: http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2013/12/08/...un-red-lights/

Actually it was on the AZ DMV motorcycle endorsement written test! Wait 2 signal changes and if no arrow, then carefully run the signal.

BUT, like was said above, cops won't be there the whole time. And once they stop you, your fair game...

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Actually it was on the AZ DMV motorcycle endorsement written test! Wait 2 signal changes and if no arrow, then carefully run the signal.

BUT, like was said above, cops won't be there the whole time. And once they stop you, your fair game...

For example, you have been waiting through 2 light changes and no arrow. Then a cop pulls up behind you. He sees you run the left arrow and you now face being pulled over, explaining your actions, insurance check, registration check, lights, turn signals, etc...

Not counting the hassle....

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Actually it was on the AZ DMV motorcycle endorsement written test! Wait 2 signal changes and if no arrow, then carefully run the signal.

BUT, like was said above, cops won't be there the whole time. And once they stop you, your fair game...

I tried to find the most recent article, but as shown it was from 2013. A lot can change in three years. It'd be nice to know if that was a specific law you could print out and show should you get pulled over.

My problem with the "wait X changes" is some of the problem intersections where I ride at night are only on sensors. So, no traffic = no changes = technically me stuck waiting indefinitely. I'll run it after waiting a few minutes to ensure that the light truly isn't changing, then proceed cautiously.

Ages ago I was told if I know of a consistently problematic signal, to call Nevada DOT (forgot which division) and have them adjust the sensitivity of the sensor to pick up motorcycles. Never did it, but was given the option.

Best solution I've seen so far is an additional Bike Box embedded into the pavement with a little bike icon. Park there and the light instantly detects you. Susanville in California has that.

[Chocula]

Most if not all of the sensors in my area are now induction loops. Bicycle commuting has taught me to look at the streets to find where the wires are and put the rim of my tire on top of and along the wires. The closer you can get something metal to the loop, the more effective it will be.

The motorcycle is much better at setting off the sensors than my bicycle which has aluminum wheels and an aluminum frame. On streets that have been resurfaced and you can no longer see the cuts for the wires, you can make a pretty good guess where they will be based on where they are at the other intersections in the area.

When I have been unable to trigger the sensor, I proceed when it is safe to do so. If this is local to my area, I will call the city and request they adjust the sensor as well as mark it. They are very good about this and will frequently mark the loops with a thin line of white paint so you know where to put your wheels. Unless someone tells them it is not working, the city assumes it works fine. You do need to tell them what type of vehicle you are using when it does not work so they can adjust it accordingly.

[Triple Jim]

When I'm thinking of running a red light because it's not changing to green for me, I look around first. I figure if a cop is watching me, I can probably see him, and wait longer just in case he's timing me for the full three minutes. If he's way off on the horizon and I don't see him, he probably won't be paying a lot of attention to the light that I'm running.

Plus, cops seem to give old guys with grey hair that ride motorcycles a little extra leeway.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

......
Anyone?

You can find additional discussion here:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71863

My favorite solution has been right turn, followed by a U-turn.

As for those U-turns:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...456#post639456

[VaFish]

I'm hoping the Veloloop really works.

http://www.veloloop.com/motorcycles/

[RacinNinja]

Thumb your starter. It won't hurt anything. I do it all the time to get lights to trigger. There's a one way bearing on your starter and since the engine RPM is higher than the starter RPM, it will just spin and not damage anything.

MOST motorcycles don't have starters with a Bendix like cars do. The Ninjas certainly don't. No grinding here.............

[Brother Michigan]

Re: triggering induction light sensors, I don't know where this myth of parking on the wires came from, but that's not the best way to try to trigger a light. Induction loop triggers sense the change in magnetic flux through a conducting loop in order to trigger a light to change. To create the greatest change in the magnetic flux, you need to place yourself in the CENTER of the conducting loop. Placing yourself at the edge of the loop will have basically no effect. (To be pedantic, it's actually the act of moving into the center of the loop that creates the change in the flux. Just sitting there doesn't do anything.)

[Tango89er]

Is this actually a problem in other parts of the world?
I've yet to see a bike not trigger lights in Australia

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Re: triggering induction light sensors, I don't know where this myth of parking on the wires came from, but that's not the best way to try to trigger a light. Induction loop triggers sense the change in magnetic flux through a conducting loop in order to trigger a light to change. To create the greatest change in the magnetic flux, you need to place yourself in the CENTER of the conducting loop. Placing yourself at the edge of the loop will have basically no effect. (To be pedantic, it's actually the act of moving into the center of the loop that creates the change in the flux. Just sitting there doesn't do anything.)

Yup, this. That's why thumbing your starter works. The field induced in the windings is often enough to trigger it.

Originally Posted by Tango89er

Is this actually a problem in other parts of the world?
I've yet to see a bike not trigger lights in Australia

Yes. Mostly in the US, where apparently we aren't smart enough to set them up for motorcycles.

[Tango89er]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Yes. Mostly in the US, where apparently we aren't smart enough to set them up for motorcycles.

Well maybe if more of you owned smaller cars...

[Alex]

I don't think of Australia when I think of tiny vehicles...

[Tango89er]

My daily is a Daewoo Matiz

[Alex]

I'm afraid of heights, and most of my older pants don't fit.





Wait, we're just listing things we're embarrassed about, right?

[Tango89er]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm afraid of heights, and most of my older pants don't fit.





Wait, we're just listing things we're embarrassed about, right?

Not even embarrassed. In comparison, the Hyundai X3 Excel (Accent in the US) was one of the best selling cars within Australia. $30 of petrol lasts me two weeks of driving to work and back

[Alex]

I went for a fuel-sipper for the commute car as well. You're right though - small cars aren't doing particularly well the past year or two here. They get more popular as gas prices go up, but at the moment SUVs and trucks are taking over the market. Chrysler is giving up on cars in general (in favor of SUVs, trucks, etc.), and Ford isn't going to make any small cars in the US for the foreseeable future. All of that changes the next time gas spikes and stays high for 6 - 12 months.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by Tango89er

Is this actually a problem in other parts of the world?

Not if you know how they work!

[CaliGrrl]

We've had the city paint the loop lines on some of the "problem" lights here. Sometimes flicking your high beam seems to help. Sometimes thumbing the starter seems to help.

Sometimes I run them if it's truly not changing. Asking the city to make the sensors more sensitive will often get results. They don't know about problem lights until someone tells them, and then they can adjust them.

[Chocula]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Re: triggering induction light sensors, I don't know where this myth of parking on the wires came from, but that's not the best way to try to trigger a light. Induction loop triggers sense the change in magnetic flux through a conducting loop in order to trigger a light to change. To create the greatest change in the magnetic flux, you need to place yourself in the CENTER of the conducting loop. Placing yourself at the edge of the loop will have basically no effect. (To be pedantic, it's actually the act of moving into the center of the loop that creates the change in the flux. Just sitting there doesn't do anything.)

One source of this "myth" comes from Chapter 2, Traffic Detector Handbook: Third Edition—Volume I.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications...s/06108/02.cfm
"Figure 2-9 illustrates the detection of a bicycle or motorcycle by an inductive loop. These conveyances can be modeled as a vertical conducting object relative to the plane of the loop. When the cycle travels along the loop wire, eddy currents are induced in the conducting wheel rims and frame. When the cycle is directly over the loop wire, coupling between the inductive loop and the cycle is maximized."


Another source of information comes from The Basics of Loop Vehicle Detection.
http://www.marshproducts.com/pdf/Ind...Write%20up.pdf
"The loop resonates at a constant frequency that the detector monitors. A base frequency is established when there is no vehicle over the loop. When a large metal object, such as a vehicle, moves over the loop, the resonate frequency increases. This increase in frequency is sensed and, depending on the design of the detector, forces a normally open relay to close. The relay will remain closed until the vehicle leaves the loop and the frequency returns to the base level."

This is backed up with 10 years of field experiments performed while bicycle commuting.

From these we learn things such as:

1. how the physical layout controls the maximum height of detection
2. the surface area of the metal is more relevant than the mass
3. why smaller cars can be easier to detect than large SUVs (because they are closer to the ground)
4. a thin plate of metal perpendicular to the wire is very difficult to detect but really easy to detect when it is parallel to the wire
5. the wires are typically buried at a depth of less than 2 inches and contain between 3 and 5 loops of 14 to 16 gauge wire

Since these circuits do not detect current generated by ferrous metals passing along the coils, the motion of a typical vehicle is not relevant to detection. Putting your motorcycle or bicycles wheels along the wire and as close as possible offers the best chance for detection.

You are free to disagree with me if you like. Please cite your sources if you have information that conflicts with what I have posted above so that I may educate myself.

Chocula

[redonninrf]

My first bike was a TU250X which is similar in weight to a Ninjette. I had two of those magnets under the bike and didn't make an appreciable difference. Mounted them as low as possible under the frame, under the engine.

The brand I bought were difficult to mount as they didn't have any holes in them nor any indents along the side where a hose clamp might securely wrap around. They came with some sort of double sided tape but you could tell it would never hold. I would not buy them again and would not recommend them.

<rant> I hate those green light/red light laws they pass as a work-around. We've had three motorcycle fatalities in the Portland, OR area just in the last five days. Do we need more from some legislature who's never ridden and thinks running red lights is a safe solution?

I'm a software engineer. How hard is it to reprogram the lights to always turn green every other cycle even if no car trips a trigger? Or turn green every "n" minutes even if no car has tripped a trigger? </rant>

[MrAtom]

Didn't read the whole thread but if you call your city's proper authority I've been told they'll fix it if they're competent.

[chugs]

I've used the kickstand down method b4 and it works to trigger the inductance to get the green light.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by Chocula

You are free to disagree with me if you like. Please cite your sources if you have information that conflicts with what I have posted above so that I may educate myself.

Chocula

My source of information would be the ten years of physics education and attendant degrees that I possess, but you can believe the documents written by the engineers with no concept of the underlying principles if you wish. No skin off my back!

[Triple Jim]

It should be easy enough to take a metal detector of the type used to find "treasure" at the beach, and a small chunk of metal, and hold the chunk close to the detector's coil, and then in the center of the coil, and see which position causes the largest change in the earpiece's tone.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

My source of information would be the ten years of physics education and attendant degrees that I possess, but you can believe the documents written by the engineers with no concept of the underlying principles if you wish. No skin off my back!

The diagram isn't quite correct but the principles are. The field isn't strong enough to go through the whole bicycle frame. Field is strongest along the wire. The field circles around the wire in ground. I have industry experience..........

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

It should be easy enough to take a metal detector of the type used to find "treasure" at the beach, and a small chunk of metal, and hold the chunk close to the detector's coil, and then in the center of the coil, and see which position causes the largest change in the earpiece's tone.

No need. I deal with metal detectors day in and day out, of the security type and the "treasure" type. I also deal with ground loops used in some of our other security equipment, primarily under vehicle inspection but also license plate camera triggers. Metal detectors aren't comparable to a loop in a loop detector, since the types listed above have receiver coils in addition to the primary transmitter coil. This is an excerpt from a document explaining how the transmitter coils works, which is similar to a ground loop.



That said, most loops used for traffic are of the circle variety. On a motorcycle, it is possible to park with the front tire at the top of the circle and the rear tire on the bottom of the circle, or very close to it. This is the best way to get "detected" by the traffic light.

In my area, you can see most of the loops. If you can't, pull up to the light in the CENTER of the lane with your front tire about six inches to a foot back from the white line. This should position you fairly well to be picked up. DO NOT pull off to the left or right side of the lane if you are riding solo. If you are riding in pairs both of you pull up equally to the line, not staggered.

[RacinNinja]

If you want to geek out a bit, here ya go!

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publication...s/06108/02.cfm

[Triple Jim]

According to that source:

BICYCLE AND MOTORIZED VEHICLE DETECTION MODELS

Figure 2-9 illustrates the detection of a bicycle or motorcycle by an inductive loop. These conveyances can be modeled as a vertical conducting object relative to the plane of the loop. When the cycle travels along the loop wire, eddy currents are induced in the conducting wheel rims and frame. When the cycle is directly over the loop wire, coupling between the inductive loop and the cycle is maximized.

This seems to contradict what you posted above, since it says to stop with the wheels directly over the loop wire. The diagram clarifies this, showing a bicycle stopped on the right side of the loop with its wheels above the loop's right side, not centered in the loop.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

According to that source:



This seems to contradict what you posted above, since it says to stop with the wheels directly over the loop wire. The diagram clarifies this, showing a bicycle stopped on the right side of the loop with its wheels above the loop's right side, not centered in the loop.

The difference.....square vs circle. For a square loop, yes, stop on the long side.

For a circle loop, which we have where I live, if you stop on the side no wheels will be near a wire. For a circle loop, stop in the center so a wheel will be over a wire. Front wheel over the top, rear wheel over the bottom of the circle.

[RacinNinja]

There are also double rectangles. For those, stop along the center line. Either way, if you can't see the sealant over the loop, stop in the center of the lane just behind the line rather than the side of the lane if you're riding solo.

[Triple Jim]

OK, I see what you mean. I've been around the east coast states all my life, and I don't recall ever seeing a round sensing loop. I do recall the old treadles. When I was a kid, I'd sometimes get off my bicycle and jump up and down on the treadle.

For a short time, the DC area had audio sensors on poles at the intersections, that made a clicking sound, or possibly ultrasonic sounds punctuated by audible clicks, and listened for a car's noise reflection. I assume they were either too expensive, or didn't work well, because they were soon replaced by inductive loops.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

OK, I see what you mean. I've been around the east coast states all my life, and I don't recall ever seeing a round sensing loop. I do recall the old treadles. When I was a kid, I'd sometimes get off my bicycle and jump up and down on the treadle.

For a short time, the DC area had audio sensors on poles at the intersections, that made a clicking sound, or possible ultrasonic sounds punctuated by audible clicks, and listened for a car's noise reflection. I assume they were either too expensive, or didn't work well, because they were soon replaced by inductive loops.

They also used infrared detectors at some intersections now here. It looks similar to the ultrasound detector but has a tube on it. They don't work so well either.




The kind we have here look like this on the road and if you ride up the center over the line, it works really well.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

The diagram isn't quite correct but the principles are. The field isn't strong enough to go through the whole bicycle frame. Field is strongest along the wire. The field circles around the wire in ground. I have industry experience..........

I'll say again about engineers.

The direction of the magnetic field from opposite lengths of wire oppose each other outside the loop and are aligned with one another inside. Therefore it is NOT possible for the magnetic flux density to be higher anywhere than it is at the center of the loop. This is true in the plane of the loop and even more so outside the plane of the loop.