Horrible intermittent rattle has me rattled X $@!#

[Potus101]

My 04 just developed a horrible intermittent knocking sound that comes and goes. Runs perfectly. Nothing really happened to cause it except I ran it hard. Like every other day. Just adjusted valves everything looks good. Thought it was a chain tensioner failure so I put a manual one on and I changed nothing. I'm a decent mechanic rebuilt several bigger motors never messed with these. Only 9,500 miles. Any help would be appteciated. I recorded it and I Try to post it a you can hear.

[NaturalFlavored]

Not sure how similar bikes and cars engines are but in my car (protege5) a knock comes from a spun bearing, which is caused by oil starvation. If you got low on oil that could of caused it, driving it really hard (racing/14k RPM's).

[DannoXYZ]

Did you adjust cam chain tension after installing?

[Ghostt]

Does the sound go away if you engage the clutch?

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

Did you adjust cam chain tension after installing?

Yes I adjusted and readjusted several times. Took clutch cover off to check tensioner. Seems like the tensioner bottoms out and chain still feels like it has more slack than it should.

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Does the sound go away if you engage the clutch?

I haven't tried that but I will. I didn't think of that because it sounds like a definite chain slap coming from the center of the jug. Could a guide have broken?

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Potus101

Yes I adjusted and readjusted several times. Took clutch cover off to check tensioner. Seems like the tensioner bottoms out and chain still feels like it has more slack than it should.

Chain is probably worn out. Measure and calculate %-stretch.

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

Chain is probably worn out. Measure and calculate %-stretch.

At 9,500 miles?

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Potus101

At 9,500 miles?

Sure, I've seen less. Did you buy the bike new and know its complete service history?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Potus101

Yes I adjusted and readjusted several times. Took clutch cover off to check tensioner. Seems like the tensioner bottoms out and chain still feels like it has more slack than it should.

That is odd. The manual tensioner we had was nowhere near bottomed when the tension was set properly.

Something is going on with the cam chain or guides from the sound of it.

[Potus101]

I just bought it a couple months ago and it only had 4,000 miles on it. I know nothing about it but I'm pretty confident nothing had been done to it. Original tires, factory oil filter, gaskets and seals appeared to be original and no signs any of the covwrs had been removed. Here's a link to the video I took. It's 3 min long. Starts rattling 30 seconds into it and stops after two minute. It's not rpm or load sensitive. Very annoyed.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qhpgfzhqeg...92408.mp4?dl=0

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Potus101

I just bought it a couple months ago and it only had 4,000 miles on it. I know nothing about it but I'm pretty confident nothing had been done to it. Original tires, factory oil filter, gaskets and seals appeared to be original and no signs any of the covwrs had been removed. Here's a link to the video I took. It's 3 min long. Starts rattling 30 seconds into it and stops after two minute. It's not rpm or load sensitive. Very annoyed.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qhpgfzhqeg...92408.mp4?dl=0

Sounds valve-related to me. More of a tapping than a knocking.

Odd that it starts and stops like it does though. I would pull the valve cover, check the valve clearances, and look at the cam chain while you are in there.

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Sounds valve-related to me. More of a tapping than a knocking.

Odd that it starts and stops like it does though. I would pull the valve cover, check the valve clearances, and look at the cam chain while you are in there.

I did that. Went ahead and adjusted the valves. They were a little loose but not really outside the parameters. Chain looks fine. I did find a small cluster of shavings at the bottom of the front chain guide right where it drops out of the jug case which makes me think it's slapping right there. Like the guide is broke. Can't tell by looking.

[Ghostt]

I have to ask but why did you decide to go with a manual CCT, instead of the OEM one?

Have you experience using a manual CCT? I've seen too many used improperly, and cause more problems than they solve.

Was it making the noise before you installed the manual CCT? I would suggest getting a new OEM CCT, and not to use the manual CCT.

You can rebuild the OEM CCT, but it's easier and not that much more to get the whole CCT. I had an issue with mine and just got a new one, and fixed my problems. You could first try cleaning the OEM CCT, if anything that's free.

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cam_ch...sioner_removal

With the low miles on the engine the Cam chain should be okay, there are a lot of high mileage Ninjettes that haven't had an issue with it, mine has 44k miles and besides replacing the CCT I've had no issues with it.

[Triple Jim]

I'd stop it while it's making the noise and check the valve clearances. It sounds like one has something moving around that lets its clearance change a lot.

[Potus101]

I used a manual tensioner because it's the best way to go if you know what you're doing. I know the proper tension required. They're not belts they're chains never tighten them only take up the slack. I've always used them with no problems. Check them at wav oil change. I put the tensioner on to fix the problem. If a manual one can't take up enough slack then the stock one definitely won't . Respectfully. Not trying to shoot down ideas I appreciate everyones insight here. I'm new to the forum but I'm an experienced mechanic I've built numerous big twins and i could easily tear this down and figure it out but Im thinking surely someone else has had this issue and could save me a lot of time. Something I dont have a lot of

[jkv45]

The metal shavings inside the engine are certainly a concern, as is the difficulty getting proper cam chain tension, but the speed and note of the noise still points to the valvetrain in my opinion.

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by jkv45

The metal shavings inside the engine are certainly a concern, as is the difficulty getting proper cam chain tension, but the speed and note of the noise still points to the valvetrain in my opinion.

I'm with you on that it just seems to me that it would be consistent and usually a valve might actually quiet down at idle but this is just as loud if not louder at idle. Idk I guess she's coming back apart tonight

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Potus101

I'm with you on that it just seems to me that it would be consistent and usually a valve might actually quiet down at idle but this is just as loud if not louder at idle. Idk I guess she's coming back apart tonight

Just guessing. There are a few things that don't make sense.

Let us know what you find.

[A.J.]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I'd stop it while it's making the noise and check the valve clearances. It sounds like one has something moving around that lets its clearance change a lot.

I actually let my friend who is a mechanic at World of Power Sports listen to the video and this is EXACTLY what he said, almost word for word.

And yeah a little worried about the shavings. I was always told to NEVER use a manual CCT. I very much heed that advice, for some reason when it comes to the cams/valves, that's just entering an area that I am completely uncomfortable with, for me personally. I'm sure most of you have been doing it for years. Don't know how many times I heard my father say "be careful" when someone is or is going to be messing around in that department.

[Chocula]

Check and re-torque your engine mount bolts (and anything else that is readily accessible). Had an intermittent rattle that seemed to come from everywhere when checked with the stethoscope. Turned out a nut was missing on one engine mount and the other 2 were loose, letting the engine rattle against the frame. This was on an '06 Ninja 250 with around 10,000 miles on it.

Many not be very likely, but it is quick and easy to check/fix.

Chocula

[csmith12]

Finding odd sounds on bikes 101....

Does it make the sound?

1. does the bike have oil in it
2. when the bike is in motion
3. when the bike is sitting still
4. only at certain speeds or rpm levels
5. does it have a pattern about it
6. only when hot
7. only when cold
8. in a gear
9. in N
10. after you oil the chain
11. after you have pulled the clutch/brake
12. engine mount bolts tight?
13. brake caliper bolts tight
14. exhaust mount bolts tight
15. when you spin a wheel by hand
16. exhaust leak?
17. wheel bearings ok?
18. how about your brakes, are they within spec tolerances
19. head stem bolt tight?
20. any loose fairing bolts
21. clean and lube cam chain tensioner
22. now you can check valves

The kicker to this list is... some sounds come from your helmet. Such as your visor/vent vibrating at certain speeds. To check... simple, just turn your head.

That should find your tapping sound.

[csmith12]

Lastly... 250's are not the most quiet of engines. They rattle and tap... it's in their nature. If you keep looking for a sound, the worse the normal sounds become. Make sure your cam chain tension is right and get a second opinion on the sound, IN PERSON. It just might very well be completely normal.

EDIT: There is nothing wrong with a properly installed and adjusted manual cam chain tensioner. Every bike I own has one. My track bike is coming up on 25k miles of ONLY track. Your concern is founded in techs who didn't know what they were doing in that area.

EDIT: Video finally got finished downloading and I watched it. NOT NORMAL! My 4wheeler made a similar sound from the clutch when my son put the wrong kind of oil in it. And the clutch springs were very week. Could it be that simple?

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Potus101

I'm with you on that it just seems to me that it would be consistent and usually a valve might actually quiet down at idle but this is just as loud if not louder at idle. Idk I guess she's coming back apart tonight

What did you find when taking it apart?

[Potus101]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

What did you find when taking it apart?

Sorry for the delay I got covered up at work. Finally tore it down last night...rod bearing

[Triple Jim]

Big end, I'm guessing (?) Sorry to hear that news. Any idea how it happened? Was it run with low oil?

[DannoXYZ]

I noticed factory oil-pressure spec is awfully low. On edge of unacceptable. Slightest loss of pressure from anything, too much heat, low oil-level, etc. will certainly drop oil-pressure into dangerous levels very quickly.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by JacRyann

I noticed factory oil-pressure spec is awfully low. On edge of unacceptable. Slightest loss of pressure from anything, too much heat, low oil-level, etc. will certainly drop oil-pressure into dangerous levels very quickly.

My Kaw manual specs the pressure at more than 50 psi@4,000 rpm. That's not low at all.