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Old September 29th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #1
FvnnyL3tt3r1ng
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Bike won't start

Hate to start another thread on this but I drove it home one night and the next morning it wouldn't start or bump start.

I heard some strange noises coming from the starter and I thought the timing chain may have skipped but I just confirmed it is timed correctly.

Spark is good on both sides.

Not sure if the valve clearances was ever done on this engine because I bought it used w/ ~14k miles on it.

Carbs haven't been *thoroughly* cleaned in a while but I would expect it to bump start at least but it won't.

Rate of fuel flow is fine.

Starter cranks fine.

Battery is charged.

Throttle cable is attached correctly.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #2
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Have you tried spraying starter fluid in the intake?
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Old September 29th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng View Post
Hate to start another thread on this but I drove it home one night and the next morning it wouldn't start or bump start.

I heard some strange noises coming from the starter and I thought the timing chain may have skipped but I just confirmed it is timed correctly.

Spark is good on both sides.

Not sure if the valve clearances was ever done on this engine because I bought it used w/ ~14k miles on it.

Carbs haven't been *thoroughly* cleaned in a while but I would expect it to bump start at least but it won't.

Rate of fuel flow is fine.

Starter cranks fine.

Battery is charged.

Throttle cable is attached correctly.
Clean the carbs. I think thats the most common issue when the bike doesn't start. Other than that, bad fuel, but i don't really believe that it won't even stumble when you try to turn it on. Besides i assume it was running on the same tank last time it was running and you aren't nearly empty.

You checked everything else that would stop it from at least starting, so give those carbs a cleaning. When i clean them, i like to make sure that if i spray it into 1 hole in the carb, i can see it coming out of another.

I had an unknown issue recently where i checked everything at least 3 times and it still wouldn't start. Using starting fluid and a LOT of cranking (not all at once), i got her running again.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #4
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Have you tried spraying starter fluid in the intake?
Do you mean to check for leaks or to get it started?
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Old September 29th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #5
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To get it started. If it pops and turns over than your not getting gas so your carbs are bad or you dont have gas going to them.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #6
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Do you mean to check for leaks or to get it started?
If you spray starting fluid straight into the intake (not the air filter), and your engine starts, then that eliminates anything in your engine from being a problem.

If it doesn't start, then it is most likely in your engine.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #7
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Cleaning the carbs now.

Anyone know a good solution to getting my pilots out? Theyre stuck inside I've never been able to get both out
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Old September 29th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #8
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Cleaning the carbs now.

Anyone know a good solution to getting my pilots out? Theyre stuck inside I've never been able to get both out
I had the same issue, first time I didn't even clean them.

Second time i was determined.

I don't think mine were taken out since 1987 because they had corrosion on them...

I used a screwdriver i had for decades, before i was born probably, had to file down the sides, but finally got it.

If you live in USA you should have no problem, just take your carb into the store and look for a screw driver that will take out that pilot. Try not to use something with a small blade (for electronics) as you can strip the head of the pilot.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 02:05 PM   #9
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I had the same issue, first time I didn't even clean them.

Second time i was determined.

I don't think mine were taken out since 1987 because they had corrosion on them...

I used a screwdriver i had for decades, before i was born probably, had to file down the sides, but finally got it.

If you live in USA you should have no problem, just take your carb into the store and look for a screw driver that will take out that pilot. Try not to use something with a small blade (for electronics) as you can strip the head of the pilot.
Well I doubt I'd ever use these pilots since I have some one size up I'd been wanting to put in...
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Old September 29th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #10
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Well I doubt I'd ever use these pilots since I have some one size up I'd been wanting to put in...
If you are referring to stripping them then you are only winning half the battle. If you strip them inside and don't manage to take them out, you will have even more trouble extracting them.

Furthermore, I do not see a reason to change out the pilots, they are tuned pretty well. Why would you need more power idling?
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Old September 29th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #11
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If you are referring to stripping them then you are only winning half the battle. If you strip them inside and don't manage to take them out, you will have even more trouble extracting them.

Furthermore, I do not see a reason to change out the pilots, they are tuned pretty well. Why would you need more power idling?
I'm not running stock intake or exhaust. The jet kit provided me with one size of pilots I've never been able to try out.
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Old September 29th, 2013, 04:03 PM   #12
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During removal of the carbs I saw that a vacuum line on top of the carbs was disconnected. I'm not sure if it happened during removal or while driving. It was the bigger of the two that cross over cylinder 1's carb and criss cross..... My petcock is broken so it's passing fuel regardless of whether there is vacuum present or not.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #13
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Changed plugs and installed thoroughly cleaned carbs. Biked doesn't start.

Compression test reads less than 60 psi on both cylinders. Only thing I can think of is the valves being out of spec at this point. I bought this engine used at ~14k miles and who knows if the valves were ever done. I'm going to do them later today.

Any ideas other than valve clearances?
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Changed plugs and installed thoroughly cleaned carbs. Biked doesn't start.

Compression test reads less than 60 psi on both cylinders. Only thing I can think of is the valves being out of spec at this point. I bought this engine used at ~14k miles and who knows if the valves were ever done. I'm going to do them later today.

Any ideas other than valve clearances?
Did you try spraying starting fluid into the intake? When I had trouble with my engine that eliminated a lot of variables from causing the problem.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #15
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I don't know how much PSI these engines are suppose to run on, but so long as the 2 cylinders have similar values, you should be fine. You can check that the spark timing is good: put something like a long pencil down the plug hole and crank while watching spark plug for firing. When the pencil is somewhere around its peak of motion the spark should fire. Make sure you don't lose what you put down the plug hole and avoid metalic objects, they may scrape your piston head. other than that, I would put on an extenal battery, I had a car battery in my garage and use it to crank a bit faster. Go for a few cycles I went for 10 3 second cycles and eventually got her started. The reason this may be happening is that your fuel may not be flowing from the carbs to the engine, cranking gets everything flowing/moving.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #16
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Tried to bump start it and also hooked it up to car battery and cranked it forever. Haven't tried any starter fluid I'd have to buy some.

What would cause bad spark timing?

The compression minimum I think is somewhere over 160 psi if I'm not mistaken. Last running engine I had read 180 psi on both sides. The thought just occurred to me that maybe my head gasket went.... Guess I should run a leakdown test as well.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #17
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You've confirmed the float bowls are full - right?

Just because the petcock is flowing fuel doesn't mean it's getting into the bowls.

Check all of the fuel filters throughout the system.

Confirm the gas is good.

Spraying starter fluid would tell you if it's a fuel issue (as noted by 1/4L).
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Old September 30th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #18
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Got the pilot jet out btw. I had to drill it out a little then get it with a screw extractor.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #19
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You've confirmed the float bowls are full - right?

Just because the petcock is flowing fuel doesn't mean it's getting into the bowls.

Check all of the fuel filters throughout the system.

Confirm the gas is good.

Spraying starter fluid would tell you if it's a fuel issue (as noted by 1/4L).
Yeah when I checked for fuel flow I confirmed fuel in the bowls.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #20
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Make sure you don't crank for too long at a time, the starter has a lot of current running through it, you can blow your starter. There is a key that locks the flywheel to the stator and if it shears, your spark will not fire at the right time, but this is highely unlikely as was explained to me by n4mwd and motodool. I would guess you have poor compression, but I wouldn't imagine that it won't even start.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #21
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When you were checking timing, did you check that the rockers were in place? Also, why didn't you check clearances while you were in there?

Tighter clearances mean you will have high end power, larger clearances means you will have low end power at the trade off of high end. This means that with larger clearances, you will have an easier time starting the engine.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #22
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Valve clearances done, bike still doesn't start. Gonna get some rest and run the leak down test tomorrow. There is a possibility the battery is just low but I did try and bump start it so tomorrow I'll hook it up to a car battery first thing.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #23
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When you were checking timing, did you check that the rockers were in place? Also, why didn't you check clearances while you were in there?
I knew the valves were tight because I bought this engine used and who ever does valve clearances?? Decided to take a break and come back to it. I'm guessing it might be my head gasket or one or more of the valves.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #24
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I knew the valves were tight because I bought this engine used and who ever does valve clearances?? Decided to take a break and come back to it. I'm guessing it might be my head gasket or one or more of the valves.
You hit the nail on the head with the valve clearance job

I can feel your frustration, i went through a similar process as you, hopefully yours is not serious. Try looking through my thread "Valve adjustment no good" maybe you will get some inspiration or idea of what you can check next.

BTW, i did have the valve cover off at one point when cranking, just to make sure everything was moving properly. It actually started with the cover off, which was quite amusing for a moment.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #25
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I got a short clip of my motor running with the valve cover off.anyhoo. If you have that low o compression your motor won't start. Ask me how I know lol
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Old October 1st, 2013, 06:49 AM   #26
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I got a short clip of my motor running with the valve cover off.anyhoo. If you have that low o compression your motor won't start. Ask me how I know lol
I'm taking a guess I warped my head gasket..... I'll know later I guess.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 08:58 AM   #27
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I'm taking a guess I warped my head gasket..... I'll know later I guess.
My case was due to worn rings.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 12:17 PM   #28
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My case was due to worn rings.
Did your bike die while you were riding it? My bike drove fine home but next day wouldn't start.....

Ran a leakdown test and it seems there are no leaks.

I dunno if this is an effective test but I also sprayed soapy water around the head gasket while pushing air in with a compressor and didn't observe any bubbles....

Looks like I may have to rebuild my spare engine real quick and swap the two while I figure out wtf is going on.......arghhh!!!
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Old October 1st, 2013, 01:52 PM   #29
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It's not the safety switch for the kickstand is it? Oh wow 14k on mileage yeah definitely check the valves.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 01:56 PM   #30
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It's not the safety switch for the kickstand is it?
O man I wish!! lol I'll double check just because you brought it up!
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:11 PM   #31
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O man I wish!! lol I'll double check just because you brought it up!
You try bypassing the starter?
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:14 PM   #32
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You try bypassing the starter?
Um, guess not? How do you do that?

I've tried bumpstarting it every time but from the sound of it the starter is fine.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:39 PM   #33
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Did your bike die while you were riding it? My bike drove fine home but next day wouldn't start.....

Ran a leakdown test and it seems there are no leaks.

I dunno if this is an effective test but I also sprayed soapy water around the head gasket while pushing air in with a compressor and didn't observe any bubbles....

Looks like I may have to rebuild my spare engine real quick and swap the two while I figure out wtf is going on.......arghhh!!!
It happened while i was out at the track. At the end of the day, my bike would not start. I killed the battery and after so many attempts at push started it fired up. Next day, it wouldn't start like previously. I checked compression and was getting numbers similar to yours.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:40 PM   #34
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I believe you jump the solenoid with a screwdriver but I would run it by one of the gear heads first or at least research it a bit. If the starter is cranking though it's probably something else.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 02:47 PM   #35
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well check your valves and adjust as needed. Tight valves can give you starting issues.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 03:30 PM   #36
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Already adjusted valves.

Is there any further troubleshooting I can do at this point with engine in place? I'm kind of lost as to where to go from here....
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Old October 1st, 2013, 03:36 PM   #37
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Smell the exhaust while you're cranking, air should come out and it should smell like fuel. Also pull a plug and test for spark, though I feel like you proabably tried that. 60psi sounds awfully low, do you have another gauge you can try or something else to test it on to verify its accuracy? For absolutely nothing happening it sounds like ignition and I think your compression tester is off, you should have SOMETHING with even the worst of vacuum leaks, gummed up carbs, etc. Especially since you just parked it.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:59 PM   #38
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Smell the exhaust while you're cranking, air should come out and it should smell like fuel. Also pull a plug and test for spark, though I feel like you proabably tried that. 60psi sounds awfully low, do you have another gauge you can try or something else to test it on to verify its accuracy? For absolutely nothing happening it sounds like ignition and I think your compression tester is off, you should have SOMETHING with even the worst of vacuum leaks, gummed up carbs, etc. Especially since you just parked it.
Wouldn't doubt it but this gauge has read very well in the past so I'm not too suspicious of it.

I guess I should test for spark timing at this point.......
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Old October 1st, 2013, 05:05 PM   #39
Felipe the Ant
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I've also heard of connecting an air hose to your compression tester hose and listening for air hissing to find leaks, maybe regulate it to 60-90psi? At TDC I'd imagine as well
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Old October 1st, 2013, 05:21 PM   #40
FvnnyL3tt3r1ng
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Originally Posted by Felipe the Ant View Post
I've also heard of connecting an air hose to your compression tester hose and listening for air hissing to find leaks, maybe regulate it to 60-90psi? At TDC I'd imagine as well
Yeah I did that when I hooked it up to the leakdown tester and I sprayed soapy water all around..........Stumped!!!
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