Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[Racer x]

I have used the clear stuff. Not crystal clear but the type with white string woven through. It is made for fuel but gets very stiff over time.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I have used the clear stuff. Not crystal clear but the type with white string woven through. It is made for fuel but gets very stiff over time.

The non-reinforced stuff works as well. It will yellow and harden over time, but I don't see that as an issue here.

[Scattcatt]

In that case go for it! You may have to grind down the outside again anyway if you can't find a piece of vinyl with thin walls (the stuff at Home Depot was just as thick as my radiator hose I bought).

[n4mwd]

Can you turn the vinyl down on a lathe?

[Scattcatt]

I don't see why not, just keep it cool, I'd imagine it has some pretty dramatic expansion properties if it gets too hot while grinding (lathing) away at it

[setasai]

I hate having to custom build everything. If we can possible find a thin tube from anywhere that we can just cut, that would be ideal. I'll look around and let you all know if i find something off the shelf.

@Scattcatt can you measure the radiator tubing inner diameter and your modified outer diameter and then measure the overall thickness somehow. I think mcmastercarr might have something with the appropriate thickness.... maybe...

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

I hate having to custom build everything. If we can possible find a thin tube from anywhere that we can just cut, that would be ideal. I'll look around and let you all know if i find something off the shelf.

@Scattcatt can you measure the radiator tubing inner diameter and your modified outer diameter and then measure the overall thickness somehow. I think mcmastercarr might have something with the appropriate thickness.... maybe...

Sure, I'll measure it after class tomorrow.

[n4mwd]

There is also this stuff, but I can't tell what kind of rubber it is made from.

[n4mwd]

As I understand the problem, the gas is eating away the inner tube butyl rubber bushings that go on the intake side of the TB. Finding a gas resistant replacement has been problematic.

So I'm thinking that if we replace them with new inner tube bushings and then apply a thin coating with something that is both resistant and impermeable to gasoline. This could be as simple as paint, or maybe this stuff which is a gas/oil resistant form of silicone.

Another idea is to build up the surface diameter of the TB intake tube with JB-Weld so that it matches the OEM intake tube and doesn't need a bushing. You could coat the OEM rubber intake tube with Vaseline and use it as a mold to keep the JB-weld perfectly round on the TB (no clamp). JB-Weld wont stick to Vaseline. Ideally you would want to make a wooden mold so that you can reproduce the ridges (barbs), but I think the intake boot would probably work.

[Scattcatt]

I bolded the values I felt were critical.

Dimensions of the rubber stuff:

Original rubber dimensions:
External Diameter: 36.94mm
Internal Diameter: 32.60mm
Length: 18.14mm
Thickness: 1.55mm

Unmodified Radiator Hose Dimensions:
External Diameter: 41.43mm
Internal Diameter: 33.01mm
Length: Irrelevant
Thickness: 4.68mm

Modified Radiator Hosing Dimensions:
External Diameter: 35.68mm
Internal Diameter: 32.14mm
Length: 11.90mm
Thickness: 2.27mm

Also as a sidenote for those who didn't get the email from Matt, I originally had a piece of tubing about 2 inches long for my MAP sensor, in my mind, I thought that the shorter this tube was, the better. Matt told me otherwise though, he stresses that it's more important to keep the sensor out of harms way of potential gasoline exposure, this means for those of us who installed it upside down we will need like 6-10inches of tubing between the throttle body and the sensor to keep it above the throttle body and out of harms way of gasoline. He said this is fine.

[setasai]

Thanks for the values.

Other note, did everybody use the decel cable? I'm looking at how to include it into the pulley from my orientation but without changing the pulley itself, there's no where to mount it.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by setasai

Thanks for the values.

Other note, did everybody use the decel cable? I'm looking at how to include it into the pulley from my orientation but without changing the pulley itself, there's no where to mount it.

Everybody or Anybody? I did not use it. My reason is because I'm using the deceleration tab on the pulley as my mounting point for my acceleration cable. If I adjust the acceleration cable to go to the proper mounting location then I might use the deceleration cable, but I've had zero problems doing it this way so far.

[setasai]

@Scattcatt haha anybody or everybody is fine. I was just looking for confirmation or flaming about not using the decel cable. Especially since i remember forbitel had issues and ended up reinstalling it.

Update on my install:

My engine starts and runs pretty good so far.

Attached are a few pictures of my quicksteel and throttle cable mounts. It took 2 days because quicksteel takes 12hours to fully cure. I molded it last night and threaded it today along with cutting the bracket. Let me know if anybody wants to go this route and I can add more detail to it.

Final picture has the ideal pulley mount locations to allow for both accel and decel cables to be installed. If I find I need the decel cables, I'll use n4mwd's washer method. This would allow my bracket to be shorter. I used the original stock 250R throttle cable and there is PLENTY of length.

Last thing is to tweak the rubber boot spacers and see if we can find something fast and less DIY. At the same time, probably some way to support the pod filters because on the whole bike, those pod filters wobble and I suspect this isnt helping the throttlebody from popping out either.

O2 sensors bungs are installed but I want to run open-loop a little while longer to clear out some of the cutting oil left in the header. Looking forward to some autotuning.

Edit: Looking for a switch to replace the eco/rich switch. Anybody know where I can find one that looks like a round vandal resistant push switch but not momentary. Like you push in and it locks and then push it again it pops back out? I know it exists but it's not a push button switch and not a toggle switch. It's kinda a blend of both.

[n4mwd]

Looks like you made a different bracket altogether form what you had before. Reusing the carb bracket seemed like a good idea to me.

Are you able to achieve WOT with your current system? That is, twist the grip all the way and then reach down to see if the pulley will turn a little bit more.

If you use the washer pulley, you will probably need to make another bracket and use the 650 cables.

I didn't get anything done today. I went for a 200 mile ride instead. The ride was more fun.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Looks like you made a different bracket altogether form what you had before. Reusing the carb bracket seemed like a good idea to me.

I thought so too until I looked carefully at the carb bracket. The accel is on one side of the bracket and the decel is on the otherside. This means it is offset. On the carb this is compensated by the pulley location. Take a look. On other bikes, both accel and decel mounts are on the same side which allows you to use a washer pulley style.

Are you able to achieve WOT with your current system? That is, twist the grip all the way and then reach down to see if the pulley will turn a little bit more.

Yup! That is the first thing I checked. At first I had the cables too far towards the front of the bike. That made it so it could not go WOT. So I moved it to the far back/right side. That worked but I thought the cable was rubbing on the threaded portion too much. After looking at the carbs, the location of the cable mount point with the pulley mount point is almost perfectly in line, with the cable mount point slightly offset. Hence the reason I have it setup like this now.

If you use the washer pulley, you will probably need to make another bracket and use the 650 cables.

No I dont think I need to use the 650 cables. I'll just make a new bracket but move them lower. the 250R cables have enough length to comfortably drop down 2-3cm without any kind of tension. That was what I was going to do today but then I got lazy and realized that if I didnt care about the decel cable, I could just do this and be done with it.

I didn't get anything done today. I went for a 200 mile ride instead. The ride was more fun.

Haha NICE!!! I'm able to ride now but I wanted to ride it in openloop for a few miles and then install the O2 sensors. I am happy with it right now. Just waiting on Matt's new rubber boots and we'll be set. Btw, pod filters make the engine sound pretty cool. It's also pretty loud even without an exhaust mod.

[lc86]

Looking for a switch to replace the eco/rich switch. Anybody know where I can find one that looks like a round vandal resistant push switch but not momentary. Like you push in and it locks and then push it again it pops back out? I know it exists but it's not a push button switch and not a toggle switch. It's kinda a blend of both.

Why not just use a pushbutton that is latch type instead of momentary. If thats what you are looking for you can always get something like this http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Bulg...374470&sr=1-25 or if you want a stainless steel one there is this one http://www.amazon.com/Silver-Stainle...374470&sr=1-28 or a green one http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Illu...374470&sr=1-29 and here is a cool purple illuminated one. http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Purp...470&sr=1-33All all of these are Amazon prime items, meaning fast shipping and easy returns.

[n4mwd]

Another guy suggested early on to connect one of these to the choke cable. I think it would probably work. Just drill a hole in the black plastic switch handle and stick the cable in there somehow. Solder the switch to a small circuit board and bolt the cable sheath to the other end. Now your choke works that switch.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by setasai

No I dont think I need to use the 650 cables. I'll just make a new bracket but move them lower. the 250R cables have enough length to comfortably drop down 2-3cm without any kind of tension. That was what I was going to do today but then I got lazy and realized that if I didnt care about the decel cable, I could just do this and be done with it.

If you use the washer pulley method, the geometry of where you place your holes and mounts is critical. If you draw a midpoint line from the midpoint between the two cable mounts and the center of the throttle shaft, you want the midpoint line to also be the midpoint between the two pulley holes at 50% throttle. In other words, you want the angle of the decel cable hole to the midpoint line at idle to equal the angle of the accel cable hole to the midpoint line at WOT.

The cable mounts should be 1" apart center to center measured parallel to the midpoint line. If you use 650 cables, they will also be even and perpendicular to the midpoint line. That is, the center of each mount should be exactly 1/2" from the midpoint line.

If you don't get the geometry right, then you'll have issues with getting WOT.

Since I now have an actual 650 TB, I measured the cable distances using 650 cables. They are somewhat different from the ones I measured earlier, but more accurate.

650 cable lengths measured from the top of the mount to the center of the nut.
Accel Idle = 90mm
Accel WOT = 67mm
Decel Idle = 67mm
Decel WOT = 90mm

However, I think you are right in that the 250 cables are a better choice because they allow for more adjustment. For the 250 cables, the accel cable mount needs to be 10mm farther away because 250 cables aren't even.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by lc86

Why not just use a pushbutton that is latch type instead of momentary. If thats what you are looking for you can always get something like this http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Bulg...374470&sr=1-25 or if you want a stainless steel one there is this one http://www.amazon.com/Silver-Stainle...374470&sr=1-28 or a green one http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Illu...374470&sr=1-29 and here is a cool purple illuminated one. http://www.amazon.com/mod-smart-Purp...470&sr=1-33All all of these are Amazon prime items, meaning fast shipping and easy returns.

That stainless steel one is exactly what I am looking for... LATCHING... that is the word. I keep thinking pushbutton toggle switch and that doesnt return the correct item. Thanks!!!

[lc86]

Thanks!!!

Don't mention it. Let me know how it works, I may try to do something similar with mine. I am hoping to have mine up this weekend, with any luck the new throttlebody will come tomorrow.

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by setasai

That stainless steel one is exactly what I am looking for... LATCHING... that is the word. I keep thinking pushbutton toggle switch and that doesnt return the correct item. Thanks!!!

FYI MOST Radio Shacks have the push buttons you are looking for.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3159591
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062500
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2049717
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062544
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062542

often they are labeled "push on, push off" switches.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

FYI MOST Radio Shacks have the push buttons you are looking for.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3159591
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062500
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2049717
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062544
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062542

often they are labeled "push on, push off" switches.

Except the vandal resistant SS ones are so much prettier. Haha the radioshack ones are soooooo ugly.

I plan on installing it in that plastic hole cover in the frame right above the footpegs. I've seen another member install a toggle switch for LEDs so I thought why not use it for the eco/rich switch.

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by setasai

Except the vandal resistant SS ones are so much prettier. Haha the radioshack ones are soooooo ugly.

I plan on installing it in that plastic hole cover in the frame right above the footpegs. I've seen another member install a toggle switch for LEDs so I thought why not use it for the eco/rich switch.

I hear ya on that, BUT to see if it is exactly what you want, spending $3 and deciding that won't exactly work like you thought is better than paying $19 plus shipping and then not using it... Just an idea

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Jack Frost

I hear ya on that, BUT to see if it is exactly what you want, spending $3 and deciding that won't exactly work like you thought is better than paying $19 plus shipping and then not using it... Just an idea

True. Yes those switches are exactly what I was looking for. Matt says that in open mode it is ECO and closed is RICH. Would that correspond with pushing the button in will be RICH mode? That would be ideal. I should look at those switches to see which way is open and which is closed.

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by setasai

True. Yes those switches are exactly what I was looking for. Matt says that in open mode it is ECO and closed is RICH. Would that correspond with pushing the button in will be RICH mode? That would be ideal. I should look at those switches to see which way is open and which is closed.

yes that is how those switches work. MOST of those switches are normally open meaning that they will be open when in the off / ECO "poking out" position and closed in the on / RICH "pushed in" position

IF for some odd reason you get one that is normally closed, it will be closed (on / RICH)in the "poking out" position and open (off / ECO) in the pushed in position.

no matter what switch you get a simple 5 pin automotive relay can be wired up to create whatever circuit you will need to make the switch work.

[lc86]

spending $3 and deciding that won't exactly work like you thought is better than paying $19 plus shipping and then not using it... Just an idea

Sorry, I always assume everyone uses amazon prime like me(if you have a school email address you can get it free for a year), so shipping is never an issue since its free. I also know they will get you the product right away and their return policy is second to none. I know you can get these parts anywhere, but the lighted stainless steel one is just so damn sexy :-)

Also, this switch should be NO/NC meaning that it would be in ECO mode, but when you press the button the LED would light up and it would be in Rich mode. I will probably buy one to put on mine, but that won't be for another week or so and I might go with the green one to match my bike.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by lc86

Sorry, I always assume everyone uses amazon prime like me(if you have a school email address you can get it free for a year), so shipping is never an issue since its free. I also know they will get you the product right away and their return policy is second to none. I know you can get these parts anywhere, but the lighted stainless steel one is just so damn sexy :-)

Also, this switch should be NO/NC meaning that it would be in ECO mode, but when you press the button the LED would light up and it would be in Rich mode. I will probably buy one to put on mine, but that won't be for another week or so and I might go with the green one to match my bike.

Exactly what I am thinking. I was going to go with the green one as well but the white one looks damn sexy as well.

Update: If anybody cares...
I've installed the O2 sensors and went out for a 20min ride. I love it! Really smooths everything out. I had an issue with gas getting into the MAP sensor even though I have the sensor coming in from the top. I also noticed that it happened right when I was riding and suddenly cut the throttle. I'll play with the fuel decel cutoff like Matt said in addition to adding a foot long tube to it.

Any preferences on the fuel-decel-cutoff settings? I think I remember @Scattcatt setting it to 3000rpms I think.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

Exactly what I am thinking. I was going to go with the green one as well but the white one looks damn sexy as well.

Update: If anybody cares...
I've installed the O2 sensors and went out for a 20min ride. I love it! Really smooths everything out. I had an issue with gas getting into the MAP sensor even though I have the sensor coming in from the top. I also noticed that it happened right when I was riding and suddenly cut the throttle. I'll play with the fuel decel cutoff like Matt said in addition to adding a foot long tube to it.

Any preferences on the fuel-decel-cutoff settings? I think I remember @Scattcatt setting it to 3000rpms I think.

good deal and yea i still get fuel in my Map sensor and i got about a foot of line. only happens at idle though. weird. And i set it at 3k on all setting with no issues. scattcatt set his and few others to 15300rpms. Thats so fuel is always flowing. I set it low to save on gas.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

good deal and yea i still get fuel in my Map sensor and i got about a foot of line. only happens at idle though. weird. And i set it at 3k on all setting with no issues. scattcatt set his and few others to 15300rpms. Thats so fuel is always flowing. I set it low to save on gas.

Even with a foot of tubing you still get gas all the way up to the sensor? Have you had the sensor get enough gas into it to cause a fault? I'm still waiting for it to dry to see if the sensor is damaged.

[EMSRacer07]

yeah not enough to fault it but i see the tip get a bit wet and lets say a drop or so. I have it hung right at the valve cover and my tbs are upside down. its about a foot of piping. I only get a few werid reading at idle but they go away. No worries or troubles so far and have had it like that for 400 miles so far.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

yeah not enough to fault it but i see the tip get a bit wet and lets say a drop or so. I have it hung right at the valve cover and my tbs are upside down. its about a foot of piping. I only get a few werid reading at idle but they go away. No worries or troubles so far and have had it like that for 400 miles so far.

I wonder why that happens. Mine is coming from the top since I have the injectors on the top and I got fuel into the sensor. I have no idea how long it's going to take to dry but it's been a few hours now. Getting impatient but I'll wait till tomorrow and hopefully it'll be fine.

Maybe I should make it even longer just in case. I would hate to have it fault during a ride, especially since it takes a while to dry.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

I wonder why that happens. Mine is coming from the top since I have the injectors on the top and I got fuel into the sensor. I have no idea how long it's going to take to dry but it's been a few hours now. Getting impatient but I'll wait till tomorrow and hopefully it'll be fine.

Maybe I should make it even longer just in case. I would hate to have it fault during a ride, especially since it takes a while to dry.

hmm urs is on top and still does that... weird. And yeah took mine a few hours to dry since that little hole doesnt allow it to vent fast. but should be fine. Mine was gas filled adn still works fine. But make sure u data log and make sure the ecu is getting a reading.

[Scattcatt]

I haven't checked out my MAP sensor since I put the new tubing on it, but I'm certainly hoping no more gas has contacted it haha! Especially considering the new position of the map has it above the throttlebody with roughly 9 inches of tubing wrapping around the throttle body to get it there. I do have my fuel cut off set at 15300 as @EMSRacer07 said, it has a sportier feel to me at least since I can blip the throttle on downshifts and have instant throttle response from 0% throttle twist at any rpm. A fuel cut off set at 3,000 will definitely save you gas though. I may change it to 3,000 on my commutes to and from class and have the 15,300 for leisure rides or when I'm in a sportier mood. Since I pretty much always have my laptop on me anyway, changing this is only a matter of seconds really.

[setasai]

Does the MAP fault just disappear or is there some kind of reset button that I need to hit? It's been about 4 hours and still not working. I'm being impatient but I'll try again tomorrow morning.

[Scattcatt]

As in it's not functioning properly after the gasoline exposure? I didn't notice a positive change in my MAP sensor's behavior after changing it's location until a full day after I did it and after I did 2 rides.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by setasai

Does the MAP fault just disappear or is there some kind of reset button that I need to hit? It's been about 4 hours and still not working. I'm being impatient but I'll try again tomorrow morning.

could suck it dry lol but that probably wont be good for u. yeah wait a full day. but ur not gettin any reading from cranking the engine?

[setasai]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

could suck it dry lol but that probably wont be good for u. yeah wait a full day. but ur not gettin any reading from cranking the engine?

Cant even get past the diagnostics. The led lights up red and the diagnostics reading says "MAP fault1: Something is malfunctioning with the MAP sensor".

I'll check again tomorrow. Heh After the test ride today, I got reminded on how much fun it is which has me very restless and impatient right now knowing that it's not working. Haha I should get a beer and relax.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by setasai

Cant even get past the diagnostics. The led lights up red and the diagnostics reading says "MAP fault1: Something is malfunctioning with the MAP sensor".

I'll check again tomorrow. Heh After the test ride today, I got reminded on how much fun it is which has me very restless and impatient right now knowing that it's not working. Haha I should get a beer and relax.

Remember you asked for your software to be set for the "upside down" method

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Remember you asked for your software to be set for the "upside down" method

Never installed it. Even then, its irrelevant. Had I installed the software, the MAP sensor would have to be on the right port to even start.

[n4mwd]

Another buyer mentioned that the injector tube holes were too small. After looking at the TB again, it looks like fuel is pooling in the injector tube and then dripping over into the map tube. If the problem seems worse at an idle, then this is probably it. The vacuum pulsates so air is constantly moving in and out of the MAP tube.

Using quicksteel or something like that might be an option to fill the voids in the injector tube leaving just a straight hollow tube for the fuel spray.

Is quicksteel resistant to gasoline?

Ether that or install a liquid lock chamber and empty it periodically. A longer tube simply delays the gas, but doesn't stop it.