Turbo250.com - My Turbo Build Blog

[garth285]

All ready for the dyno tomorrow!!!

(Yes I have more straps for it)

[Somchai]

I'm looking forward to your dynorun with big interest and wish you best success

[garth285]

Thanks for the support! What a pain in the butt it has been just to try to get to the dyno!

Results tomorrow!

[garth285]

Well some progress has been made but I am running into a early rev limiter, hoping its the speed sensor causing the rev limiter.

Progress not perfection!

[garth285]

Hey @Racer x wanna guess how much boost these motors can hold lol....

While on the dyno I blocked the wastegate line and went from 12psi to....... get a load of this.... I'm seriously surprised the head did not lift.

26PSI of boost!!!!!!!!!!

[choneofakind]

Nice!!

That's a wonky set of curves. Also, it aggravates me that the X-axis is in mph rather than rpm.

[garth285]

I really did not do to much tuning to the bike tonight so its no where near final tune.

Trying to get past this early rev limiter.

[swarfman64]

Wow, that's fantastic! I'm watching all this closely.
You've done a great job getting this all set up, I think these little engine are going to respond very well to boost. Initially I was going to settle for a nice reliable turbo bike but now I think the competitive spirit has kicked in and I want more!

[Racer x]

Nice job! 50 hp is a real deal.

[BlownWideOpen]

Originally Posted by garth285

All ready for the dyno tomorrow!!!

(Yes I have more straps for it)

So... when are you building mine? Seriously.

[garth285]

I'll probably wind up selling this kit when I'm done with it!

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Wow, that's fantastic! I'm watching all this closely.
You've done a great job getting this all set up, I think these little engine are going to respond very well to boost. Initially I was going to settle for a nice reliable turbo bike but now I think the competitive spirit has kicked in and I want more!

Bring what ever you have to Ohio. The 250/350 class is HOT we got turbos nitrous all motor guys. Vintage stuff all little bike busting serious speed. My bike is over 120 the 350 supercharged guys just went 145 and this year the turbos will add more to the ranks.

[garth285]

@Racer x - Swarfman is in Australia!

[Racer x]

My bad I should have checked that. Well there is Lake Garner

[swarfman64]

Thanks for the invite but your just a little too far away.

[garth285]

Well I may have an idea of whats wrong, the ninja 250 crank sensor specs in the manual say 100-150ohm and a peak of 3.2V The ninja 300 crank sensor says 180-280ohm and 4.5V ...... that may be holding me back! Hopefully I can try out a buddys setup and see what happens

[garth285]

Hey @Racer x just figured I'd share this info with ya, the wastegate on these VZ21's are boosting to 12psi and the oil jet that I have installed I think it was a .023 well when the bike was fully warmed up the bike at idle has oil pressure of 5-6psi and it picks up to about 15psi but under load and up to 10k rpm the oil pressure went down to 8psi going to the turbo so I may be going to a larger oil jet and run the test again.

I made some tuning adjustment's to the bike since I got plenty of runs in on the dyno but it was lean here and there and rich here and there. but I am running 25* of timing from 7k rpm and up and I'll see how the bike reacts to that, wondering if the bike was breaking up due to timing. I know stock they run about 34* I think it was so I have 9* of timing pulled for 12psi so we'll see how this acts with a bit more of timing pulled.

One more thing... when I disconnected the wastegate the turbo was putting out 5psi more at 7,000 rpm from 9.5psi to 15.5psi

Also with the wastegate disconnected it made that same 9.5psi 1,000rpms earlier.....

I atleast know the wastegate is doing its job but it would have been nice if it spooled the same connected as it did disconnected.

The bike held 26psi at 10k rpm.... I wonder if it can handle 26psi at 13k lol

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by garth285

Hey @Racer x just figured I'd share this info with ya, the wastegate on these VZ21's are boosting to 12psi and the oil jet that I have installed I think it was a .023 well when the bike was fully warmed up the bike at idle has oil pressure of 5-6psi and it picks up to about 15psi but under load and up to 10k rpm the oil pressure went down to 8psi going to the turbo so I may be going to a larger oil jet and run the test again.

I made some tuning adjustment's to the bike since I got plenty of runs in on the dyno but it was lean here and there and rich here and there. but I am running 25* of timing from 7k rpm and up and I'll see how the bike reacts to that, wondering if the bike was breaking up due to timing. I know stock they run about 34* I think it was so I have 9* of timing pulled for 12psi so we'll see how this acts with a bit more of timing pulled.

One more thing... when I disconnected the wastegate the turbo was putting out 5psi more at 7,000 rpm from 9.5psi to 15.5psi

Also with the wastegate disconnected it made that same 9.5psi 1,000rpms earlier.....

I atleast know the wastegate is doing its job but it would have been nice if it spooled the same connected as it did disconnected.

The bike held 26psi at 10k rpm.... I wonder if it can handle 26psi at 13k lol

I would not be surprised if the pressure in the cylinder gets so high spark and air flow gets disrupted. Then it just flattens out on power.
Timing the spark event closer to TDC is good. It's what everyone does with turbos. But you need to play with boost and timing together.
Step one is to settle on a fuel and tune around that. As long as you can keep burning everything below 1400 degrees add more till coolant comes out the side. Then add studs.

[swarfman64]

Question. Are you removing timing in relation to manifold pressure or just off the rpm/timing graph. I'm pretty happy these vz turbos seem sized well for tho 250.
Are you watching your get befor the turbo? A standard bike in good tune will run 1200 deg 8 inches down the exhaust at an 8000rpm cruise! Anyway, it's great to see the time and effort your putting in, it's already looking very promising.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Question. Are you removing timing in relation to manifold pressure or just off the rpm/timing graph. I'm pretty happy these vz turbos seem sized well for tho 250.
Are you watching your get befor the turbo? A standard bike in good tune will run 1200 deg 8 inches down the exhaust at an 8000rpm cruise! Anyway, it's great to see the time and effort your putting in, it's already looking very promising.

Right now I have only been tuning WOT so from about 70% throttle and up and rpm based as well but I am also looking at my bosot pressures and what RPM's I'm seeing certain boost levels.

I think the VZ turbos are almost spot on for the ninja 250, at decently low rpm's it starts building boost.

Heres what boost pressures I'm seeing on the stock wastegate.

4,600 - 2.5psi
5,000 - 3.5psi
5,500 - 7.2psi
6,000 - 9.5psi
7,000 - 9.9psi
8,000 - 10.5psi
9,000 - 11.9psi
10,000 - 11.9psi

I am waiting for my EGT probe to come in and I'lkl start running that as soon as its in. For now I have no idea what EGT's I'm seeing

I may take the bike for a spin around the block and see if it wants to rev out with the decreased timing and see what it does.

[garth285]

Without wastegate connected lol




4615 - 2.59
5128 - 4.83
5641 - 9.48
6154 - 12.54
6667 - 14.83
7179 - 17.29
7692 - 20.52
8205 - 23.36
8718 - 25.22
9231 - 25.69
9744 - 25.95
10256 - 24.70

[garth285]

@Racer x - I have been doing some research about the coils, I think the 300's will be fine, they are used in the 1000's but the looking at the peak voltage on the primary side of the stick coil its 90 Volts. The Kawasaki H2 which can make up to 300hp uses a coil that produces 100 Volts.

Hayabusa's which when turbocharged or using a lot of nitrous only have 80V of peak voltage so I think the coils will do!

Did not have time to ride the bike yesterday but hopefully can hop on it tonight and give it a spin.

[Racer x]

Any idea what the stock 250 peak at?

[JohnnyBravo]

I want turbos

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Any idea what the stock 250 peak at?

Service manual states peak voltage on the 08-12 250 is 223 Volts.... hmm maybe because its not a stick coil it doesnt need as much.

[Racer x]

When I was developing my nitrous system I hit a wall powerwise. Like just over 40 hp rich or lean it was just not making more power. After changing to stick could it went ti 50 like nothing.

[garth285]

yeah I know the older coils can hold you back. I found the ZX-10r's also run 100V coils as well so I may try that, actually I may hook up the meter to the coils tonight just to make sure I'm getting good voltage and ohms.

[Racer x]

I use Takai coils. Getting 12000 plus RPM requires lots of coil strength

[garth285]

Tested the coils tonight, primary and secondary resistance is spot on.....

Peak voltage on both coils and both cylinders are right at 95V so that is good.

I changed out the Iridium plugs and put in CR9E's I was doing some research and some people had issues with them on some other things but I figured I'd try out some regular NGK's Gaped down to .022. No chance to ride the bike tonight, hopefully tomorrow...

Oh also checked out the crank position sensor peak voltage, was right at 4.5 Volts which is good since that's what the 300's call for, the 250 was a little less but yeah that looks good.

I feel like I'm getting closer!

[Racer x]

Closing up the gap is a good idea. I run 18-22 gap with CR10E. I don't like fancy plugs.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Closing up the gap is a good idea. I run 18-22 gap with CR10E. I don't like fancy plugs.

I was running almost a .040" gap to start with but then closed it down to .026 but didnt have any change, now set at .022" I'll see what it does.

Turbo busa guys run Iridium's all day long but different strokes for different folks lol....

[Racer x]

I like regular plugs because they are easy to read. Most turbo Busa guys are only pushing the engine eight or Ning seconds. Even land speed racers are going full power ten or fifteen seconds. With fifty HP about 120 mph the little ninja will be at 12000 rpm thirty seconds or more. Until things are sorted out I don't use the tiny electrode plugs.

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Racer x

When I was developing my nitrous system I hit a wall powerwise. Like just over 40 hp rich or lean it was just not making more power. After changing to stick could it went ti 50 like nothing.

RacerX did you use stick coils with Ecotrons ECU? I'm just looking into doing it myself.

[Racer x]

Yes but I never got a chance to really run the FI.

[garth285]

Well I ran the bike tonight. The problem is still there... Ran it with the cr9e plugs gaped to .022" and timing from 7k to 15k turned down to 25*.

Next test I'm going to try out is I am wondering if my fuel system is holding me back. The fuel pump and the ecu both get power from the same wire. I know if the pump is pulling to much power it could pop a fuse but I wonder if it's pulling just enough to make the ecu tweek out.

Sigh.....

[garth285]

Well I am at a wall right now with the tuning, hopefully will have someone test my ecu on a stock bike to make sure the tuning software is good.

Anyways I played around with the oil jet for the turbo. I installed the .034 jet and I am getting about 13psi at idle and 23psi at WOT up to 10,000rpm. The turbo was smoking a little on startup so with the cold oil it must be a little to high. With the .024 jet i was seeing about 10psi at idle but at WOT the oil pressure would drop up top to about 8psi. I dont want to run the oil pressure that low on those small turbo bearings so I think I will stay with the .034 jet. I think a .030 jet would probably be optimal.

Just waiting to see if its my ECU holding me back or not... will keep you guys posted :-/

[swarfman64]

If it's any help I've got a 0.060(1.5mm) jet. I'm going to increase it too. Usually only ball bearing turbos use restrictors and I restricted it initaly because of the information out there. I've never restricted a journal bearing befor now. I think it's important to drain above the oil level because these turbos only have piston ring style seals each end and not carbon face seals. Just my thoughts from past experience. Keep pushing, I luv this stuff!
What hp do yo get at about 9 psi?

[garth285]

Well I'm not able to rev the bike out to redline so I dont know. Running on the stock wastegate I am making 9.5psi at 6,000rpm though if that helps?

[swarfman64]

I wish I could help with your rpm problem. While I'm a long way off tuned at 9psi, a standard ignition system with cr9e plugs at 0.027", 25l/r pump and a 0.5:1 rising rate reg seem to be keeping up easily. I've got a new ignition map that seems to work with EGT 1150 and AFR 12.5:1 full load. I've got an old noisy motor so in stopping at 12000rpm. It looks like your pump/reg etc setup is better than mine so its gotta be something simple.IMG_4149.jpg. I'm not saying that this map is great because its street tuned but gut feeling, but it is letting me go full noise to 12000rpm low egt and no knocking.

[Racer x]

Stop at 12000. The valve train start to stress after that. Yes you can rev higher. But making power after that is for later. Most of my power seems to be around there. Sort it out below that and then push for full load and full rpm power