Please help troubleshoot my 04 ex250!

[propilot]

Hi guys! So here's the deal. My bike started acting up and wouldn't start up anymore (in the middle of my trip to work, I stopped to get gas). At first, I could jump it w a small car battery or push start it very easily. Then it got really difficult to push start it and now nada! I changed the battery and checked all the fuses including the solenoid starter fuse. I'm suspecting a bad starter but figured you guys could shed some light on the situation before I spend money on the wrong part. I did get a tic tic tic sound when trying to start it and now nothing, battery doesn't have enough juice anymore. I read somewhere that this is a solenoid symptom but what puzzles me is that starting the bike gradually got harder when push starting it. I wish my ninja had a kick start.
Here are two things I noticed that were off about my bike when I inspected it today. First, the coolant reservoir was close to bone dry, I could see a little coolant in the hose at bottom of tank. I filled it up. Second, I noticed two cables/wires that weren't connected to anything. (see pic). Thanks in advance for your help!

[Roark]

First, read this in its entirety: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Main_Page

Second, those empty plugs, as well as their sister plugs at the rear of the bike, are just accessory plugs. They should be wired directly to the battery (always HOT). They're a good spot to wire in accessories, but be sure to also wire in a relay.

About your coolant.. How long have you had the bike?

Hopefully someone else can offer assistance with the solenoid/battery issue!

[jkv45]

Check the battery voltage. It should be 12.7V if it's fully charged. I'm guessing it's not. You can charge it at about 1A or use a smart charger until it reads 12.7V after sitting for an hour or so.

When you get a full charge, check the voltage as you hit the starter. You should still see over 10V while cranking. If it's below that your battery is bad - even if it reads fully charged before cranking.

[propilot]

Thanks for the quik reply, that link has about 30 other links in there. I don't have time to read all of them. I'm sorry I don't mean to waste anybody's time, I figured it happened to somebody before and they'd spot the issue real fast.

I've had my bike for a year and a half and put about 3000miles on it. (currently has a little under 6000) The bike rides strong up to redline and idles perfect (when it starts). I checked the oil religiously but never checked the coolant, my bad. I do stare at the temp gauge constantly courtesy of owning a few bmws and it never went into the red (but close).

[propilot]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Check the battery voltage. It should be 12.7V if it's fully charged. I'm guessing it's not. You can charge it at about 1A or use a smart charger until it reads 12.7V after sitting for an hour or so.

When you get a full charge, check the voltage as you hit the starter. You should still see over 10V while cranking. If it's below that your battery is bad - even if it reads fully charged before cranking.

I bought a new battery and bike started right up. But after day 2 or 3, it's started dying on me. It felt like the starter was stuck and it needed too much juice to turn it over. I will bring it to a shop and have them charge it for me then do a voltage test. How do I test to see if the problem is coming from the starter or solenoid?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by propilot

I bought a new battery and bike started right up. But after day 2 or 3, it's started dying on me. It felt like the starter was stuck and it needed too much juice to turn it over. I will bring it to a shop and have them charge it for me then do a voltage test. How do I test to see if the problem is coming from the starter or solenoid?

It's also possible your connections aren't good or your charging system isn't charging properly.

Confirm you have a fully charged battery in good working condition before looking much further.

I've had a bad starter relay on one of my cycles that acted like a dead battery (slow cranking). That's something to look at as well - after you know the battery is good.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by jkv45

It's also possible your connections aren't good or your charging system isn't charging properly.

Confirm you have a fully charged battery in good working condition before looking much further.

I've had a bad starter relay on one of my cycles that acted like a dead battery (slow cranking). That's something to look at as well - after you know the battery is good.

Ok thank you. I will check. Both batteries are now pretty much dead. I ended up reading most of the links in the first reply to no avail. How do I check the charging system? Stupid Q, do we have an alternator, generator or magneto on our ninjettes? This would make sense as the battery became weaker and weaker until finally dying altogether. Barely lasted me 2 days.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by propilot

Ok thank you. I will check. Both batteries are now pretty much dead. I ended up reading most of the links in the first reply to no avail. How do I check the charging system? Stupid Q, do we have an alternator, generator or magneto on our ninjettes? This would make sense as the battery became weaker and weaker until finally dying altogether. Barely lasted me 2 days.

This is a good section for electrical troubleshooting - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Electrical_%26_Lighting

Basically, to check the charging system you would start with a battery reading 12.7V (or close) while sitting. Start it up and read the voltage - it should be higher. Then rev it to about 4000 rpms - it should be about 14V at that point.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by jkv45

This is a good section for electrical troubleshooting - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Electrical_%26_Lighting

Basically, to check the charging system you would start with a battery reading 12.7V (or close) while sitting. Start it up and read the voltage - it should be higher. Then rev it to about 4000 rpms - it should be about 14V at that point.

Thanks buddy, I'm reading that whole page now. I'll post my findings to help future riders.

[propilot]

After reading that page, I think my wiring harness is fried! I told one of the guys that helped jump-start my bike to not start his car but he didn't listen. He spoke bad English and probably didn't understand. I was still able to jump start the bike but that's when it started getting difficult. This sucks..

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by propilot

I bought a new battery and bike started right up. But after day 2 or 3, it's started dying on me.

Stator or pick up coil mang. You can ohm test the stator to be sure. If the stator tests fine, then your gunna have to get it running and test the voltage going into the battery from the bike while running. ie... test your regulator. There is a high and low side, test em both if you can.

Good luck and welcome!

[cookiebug79]

Sounds like the R/R isn't charging your battery and you're just slowly draining it. If you try to start it and it sounds like the video below, it's your starter solenoid trying to start your bike but the battery doesn't have enough juice to turn it over. A fried R/R is much more likely than having 2 batteries go bad in a row. Charge the battery with a proper trickle charger. If the battery is bad it won't take or hold a charge. Check the voltage after it is charged with the bike off. It should be around 12 volts. Start the bike and check the voltage across the battery with the bike running. It should be over 13 to 14 volts. If it's less than 12 your charging system has an issue. It's either the R/R or the stator, but the R/R is much more likely.



If your stator or R/R are bad, every spark of the spark plugs are slowly draining the battery and the charging system isn't charging it, making it harder and harder for the bike to stay running. Revving the engine will actually make it worse until there's not enough power to keep the bike running.

[cookiebug79]

Also, the plugs hanging down in the front of your bike go to the turn signals.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by cookiebug79

Sounds like the R/R isn't charging your battery and you're just slowly draining it. If you try to start it and it sounds like the video below, it's your starter solenoid trying to start your bike but the battery doesn't have enough juice to turn it over.

Thanks Jen! That's exactly how my bike sounds. I will test my R/R and stator tomorrow (weather permitting - it snowin here in NY and I don't have a garage) and share the numbers here.

And thanks for not flaming me & my ignorance, this forum really has cool people!

[Hero Danny]

Sorry to hear about your problems, if it is the wiring harness then you can find replacement ones for about $100. They're just a B*tch to install..

[flitecontrol]

Everyone starts with zero knowledge. Those who flame others for not knowing what the flamers learned from people willing to share their knowledge with them, have a short memory and poor attitude.

[propilot]

Thanks guys, it makes me feel better about the next Q I'm going to ask.
First off, its snowing and freezing in NY. Hence why the 'Visit Ithaca NY' website suggests you go to the keys instead. (no joke)

So here goes, I spent hours reading threads here and watching youtube videos to learn how to properly test my R/R and stator, only to pull out my old analogue Multimeter and discover it had no diode setting (for R/R) or 200ohm setting for stator.
According to electrical forums, I can still test the R/R w/o a diode setting but I will get a qualitative value and not a quantitative one. That should be enough to know if it's fried or not, correct me if I'm wrong. No where, though, could I find which setting to turn the dial to. I'm really bad when it comes to circuits and electrical stuff.
I'm on a budget and since I'm going to have to replace the culprit, I rather not spend money on tools if it's not absolutely necessary. Anyone know which setting I should use to test the R/R & stator on my multimeter? (see pic) Thxs a million!!

[csmith12]

You test your stator using ohms settings. To my knowledge, you cannot really "test" the regulator "directly". It's an indirect test as you can only test the output from the regulator as the bike is running but using the voltage setting and putting the probes on the battery terminals. 13-14v is the goal, much more than that will fry the battery, much less will not charge the battery enough.

[ninjunk]

if you jump started your bike from a car, it is pretty common to fry your voltage regulator from that. that would be the first place i would check.

i've probably fixed 20 of them over the years and every single time it was after someone jumped the bike from a car.

if you have to jump your bike in the future, leave it turned off, hook up the car to the bike battery for a few minutes, then unhook the car and then start the moto.

[csmith12]

I should have added... Do the tests in order of simplicity.

Redneck charging system diag 101

Bike Off: Meter the battery terminals. Got 12v? If not, charge it.

Bike Running: Meter the battery terminals.
13-14v = No problem with charging system.
Over 14v = bumm regulator will fry batteries over time But easy fix. :\
Under 12v = bumm regulator or weak stator, get out more tools and ohm test stator
0V = stator is bumm or wiring is bad in charging system. TIP - a pen style voltage detector w/ led makes this task super easy.

[ninjunk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Redneck charging system diag 101

yep thats pretty much what i do.

if you want to go slightly more high tech, you can measure the resistance between the various wires on the stator pigtail. that tells you if the coils in the alternator are good or if they are broken/shorted.

[ninjunk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Redneck charging system diag 101

yep thats pretty much what i do.

if you want to go slightly more high tech, you can measure the resistance between the various wires on the stator pigtail. that tells you if the coils in the alternator are good or if they are broken/shorted.

[propilot]

Ok, so when I tested both batteries out, they initially read 12.7V, but when I tried it again, they both read 10V. Bike won't start so I can't give numbers while running and there's too much ice & snow to attempt a push-start. I just ordered a trickle charger, should be here in a few days.

Video link shows me testing the R/R. I also tested the lines from Stator (I think - see 1st pic, wasn't easy to accurately follow wires) and they all showed equal ohms and 0 when grounded to bike.

I also noticed that my airbox wasn't flush w carb (see pics 2 & 3) as tho it popped out and I think I know how that happened. Whenever I brake hard, it feels like whole engine starts shaking/knocking unless I depress the clutch lever.

Thanks again for all your help!!
http://youtu.be/AxR10cnqTUM

[csmith12]

!!!!!!

Check dem engine mount bolts. Braking hard shouldn't be causing that kinda stuff, with or without the clutch!

[propilot]

Originally Posted by csmith12

!!!!!!

Check dem engine mount bolts. Braking hard shouldn't be causing that kinda stuff, with or without the clutch!

Ok, will do. Might as well fix everything before the good weather gets here.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by propilot

Ok, so when I tested both batteries out, they initially read 12.7V, but when I tried it again, they both read 10V. Bike won't start so I can't give numbers while running and there's too much ice & snow to attempt a push-start. I just ordered a trickle charger, should be here in a few days.

Video link shows me testing the R/R. I also tested the lines from Stator (I think - see 1st pic, wasn't easy to accurately follow wires) and they all showed equal ohms and 0 when grounded to bike.

I also noticed that my airbox wasn't flush w carb (see pics 2 & 3) as tho it popped out and I think I know how that happened. Whenever I brake hard, it feels like whole engine starts shaking/knocking unless I depress the clutch lever.

Thanks again for all your help!!

If they read fully charged (12.7V) until you put a load on them - they are toast. Charging more won't help.

As far as the boots from the airbox being off - that's not great either. It looks like it's been that way for a while. That means it's been sucking in unfiltered air. Getting them attached properly can be one of the more difficult tasks when working on the carbs, but one way or the other you have to get them on correctly.

I'm still thinking it's a battery issue. But if the fuel that's in it isn't fresh it won't start no matter what you do. If there's any question, drain the tank and empty the float bowls, then refill with fresh 87 octane. Use ethanol-free if you can, even if you need to move up to a higher octane, but use the lowest that doesn't have it.

[ninjunk]

i'm not sure if there is a way to continuity test a regulator/rectifier... probably not. I was saying to test the stator coils as a way to rule them out. There should be a coil test procedure somewhere in a manual... maybe try googling 'ninja 250 stator coil test procedure' i dunno, haven't had to do it. It will tell you what resistances you should measure between the various poles.

the battery could have originally died from having too many things running at once, or maybe the R/R was getting weak but the jumpstart pushed it over the top. Maybe you had a corroded or loose terminal that just finally got bad enough.

Usually 10v means the battery is totally cooked, but i have brought them back from the dead before. I saved one a couple months ago that was stone dead at 9v by charging it for 1-2 hours at a time every day for about a month. Its capacity is not as good as it was (only 5 seconds of cranking before it starts to slow down) but it does work.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

(SNIP)

Usually 10v means the battery is totally cooked, but i have brought them back from the dead before. I saved one a couple months ago that was stone dead at 9v by charging it for 1-2 hours at a time every day for about a month. Its capacity is not as good as it was (only 5 seconds of cranking before it starts to slow down) but it does work.

If the battery showed low voltage (9V - discharged) while sitting it might be able to be charged back up to 100% (12.7V) and be useable, but if it shows 100% until a load is applied, then drops to 10V, no amount of charging will make it usable.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by jkv45

If the battery showed low voltage (9V - discharged) while sitting it might be able to be charged back up to 100% (12.7V) and be useable, but if it shows 100% until a load is applied, then drops to 10V, no amount of charging will make it usable.

No load applied. Can't start bike up. Original 12.7 reading was probably a glitch. Probably had enough juice to read 12.7 but when I tried it again it showed 10. My trickle charger is on the way. I'll let u know once it's charged and I try to fire the bike up.
What's the best way to reconnect airbox to carb? I was thinking a flathead wrapped in cloth to not damage rubber..

[jkv45]

If they are cold and hard you will have a difficult time connecting the boots.

I would clean everything up well and lube the carb and boot, and probably use a hair dryer to warm up the rubber and make it easier to work with. Once you've done it a few times it's not that bad, but for some it's the most difficult part of putting things back together after working on the carb.

There may be a thread here somewhere with some other tips.

As far as the battery, just turning on the ignition is a load. Do charge the battery until you are sure it's 100%, then see what happens.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by jkv45

As far as the battery, just turning on the ignition is a load.

Gotcha. Didn't realize turning ignition consisted of a load, makes sense tho.

Well, my trickle charger isn't in yet but the local bike shop was nice enough to charge it for free so I'll do the redneck testing tomorrow
It currently reads 12.7V.
I was also able to attach one side of the airbox back to the carb fairly easily. I lubed it and used a cloth covered screwdriver and it popped back in. For the inner part, I used a wrench and leveraged it against the frame and that worked well. I attempted it at sun-set and lost visibility real quick so I could only do half of the other side but it's 95% in and I don't foresee any problems.
@csmith12 If i do get low V while running, do I have to take the stator out to test it? Or will testing the wires be sufficient? Also in the above pic(few posts up), is that the connector to the stator wires or did I follow the wrong line?
According to youtube videos, I can simply test the wires and then use the bike as a ground. I got identical readings on all 3 wires and all 0s when grounded.

[propilot]

Well bummer, I threw the charged battery in and no crank! I kept the multimeter leads attached when I cranked it and didn't lose any battery juice. Stayed between 12.5 & 12.7V.
Thing is I didn't even get the usually tic tic tic from solenoid. I only got a click-clack, click-clack, click-clack every time I tried to start it. Is that a sign of a fried starter?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by propilot

Well bummer, I threw the charged battery in and no crank! I kept the multimeter leads attached when I cranked it and didn't lose any battery juice. Stayed between 12.5 & 12.7V.
Thing is I didn't even get the usually tic tic tic from solenoid. I only got a click-clack, click-clack, click-clack every time I tried to start it. Is that a sign of a fried starter?

Maybe, but also might be a problem with the starter relay not activating. That could mean a bad relay, or maybe a problem with the contacts on the starter button or wiring.

If you use jumper cables to put power directly to the starter you could confirm that it was working. That's how we determined the starter relay was the problem with our project bike when it wouldn't crank hardly at all with a strong battery.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by propilot

@csmith12 If i do get low V while running, do I have to take the stator out to test it? Or will testing the wires be sufficient? Also in the above pic(few posts up), is that the connector to the stator wires or did I follow the wrong line?

How to test your stator

[propilot]

@jkv45 & csmith12

Thank you!

[propilot]

Ok, well unless I did the test wrong, my starter is fried.

I connected the ground to the engine and the + to the starter bolt and tried to crank it. I got the click clack from the solenoid but no crank from the starter.

Did I do it right? And was I supposed to disconnect the battery terminals from the bike? I left it connected.

And if yes, do I really have to do all the following to remove it (sounds like a pain in the a$$):
Drain engine oil
drain coolant
remove water pipe bolts and take pipes off water pump
remove shift lever and remove engine sprocket cover
remove alternator cover and starter idler gear with shaft
dissconnect the starter motor lead from the motor
remove starter motor bolts and pull starter motor to the right
make sure to lube the oring on the new one

[propilot]

I spoke to a Kawi tech who said in 30 years of service, he never had to replace an ex250's starter motor, that they could survive a nuclear holocaust. Someone else said that, even fried, it should make a humming sound when bypassing the starter relay and solenoid and that I should check all my grounds.

So that made me feel stupid like I did something wrong. I went back and did the test again but I got the same result. I got sparks when connecting the + to the starter bolt but no crank or hum?? Wtf?

Sooo, I checked my grounds and they were fine. I disconnected every wire and wire brushed them although they didn't look like they needed it. I did notice the side kick stand was loose by a good quarter inch and thought maybe that activated the safety switch. But then again, I wouldn't of gotten a click clack from the solenoid if that was the case.

Cut a long story short, my bike still won't crank, and now I can't reconnect the bloody neutral switch that I disconnected to clean and my tools are too thick for the front sprocket cover.

Sigh...only I can turn a simple problem into a headache. I'm a rider, not a mechanic. This schtinks!

[ninjunk]

hook a jumper cable from a known good (car) battery + terminal directly to the power terminal of the starter and hook the - jumper cable to a good clean frame ground. that bypasses everything and should crank the starter. just give it a quick bump to make sure it turns.

[propilot]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

hook a jumper cable from a known good (car) battery + terminal directly to the power terminal of the starter and hook the - jumper cable to a good clean frame ground. that bypasses everything and should crank the starter. just give it a quick bump to make sure it turns.

Thanks for replying. Now, why do I have to use a car battery if the bike's battery is usually good enough to start it? I have two of them, the newest one having recently been tested by a bike shop.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

hook a jumper cable from a known good (car) battery + terminal directly to the power terminal of the starter and hook the - jumper cable to a good clean frame ground. that bypasses everything and should crank the starter. just give it a quick bump to make sure it turns.

That's basically what we did to test our starter/engine when it wouldn't crank with a strong battery in place (determining the starter relay was bad).

A cycle battery will work also, but they are more finicky and less powerful. If you are absolutely certain your extra cycle battery is strong then use it, but using a known good car battery would remove one variable.