Got map for bike.. still need dyno?

[Jason5885]

Hey guys, it's getting close to Dyno time, but I'm starting to wonder how much more a custom map would benefit me over Kerrys areap map he sent me.

Am i just going to end up paying for the same thing but slightly different?

The bike map he sent was for a client with the same bike with the same mods. Only it was for a 2008, while mines is a 2010.

Thoughts? @Somchai @kbryant

[Alex]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why are you setting up dyno time, if it's not to finetune the map? I would have thought the whole point of getting the PCV, and running it on a dyno was to figure out where it might need to be tweaked slightly for your setup. My hunch is the starting point that Kerry sent you is going to be awfully close to where you end up anyway, but the dyno should help you confirm that. There are no changes between the 2008 and 2010 bikes that would affect the map.

[Jason5885]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why are you setting up dyno time, if it's not to finetune the map? I would have thought the whole point of getting the PCV, and running it on a dyno was to figure out where it might need to be tweaked slightly for your setup. My hunch is the starting point that Kerry sent you is going to be awfully close to where you end up anyway, but the dyno should help you confirm that. There are no changes between the 2008 and 2010 bikes that would affect the map.

Im Set up dyno time after i fitted my area p full exhaust and pcv and k&n filter. Then Kerry sent me a map for a bike they tuned with the same system and filter.

My question is, am i wasting my money traveling to the dyno and getting him to create a map when i have a map from areap for the exact same setup?

Or would it be worth the $300 or whatever it costs to get a new map?

I don't want to be giving the dyno $300 if im not going to get much better than what i now have if you understand.

[Alex]

Got it. If it were me, I'd install Kerry's map and ride with it for awhile. If after riding it for awhile you are sensing issues (flat spots, feels weaker than you expected, any running issues at any revs or throttle position), a custom dyno map might make sense. That said, there's no downside to getting that custom map other than the cost, so it's really up to you whether spending $300 is cost effective either up front or a few months down the line.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by Alex

Got it. If it were me, I'd install Kerry's map and ride with it for awhile. If after riding it for awhile you are sensing issues (flat spots, feels weaker than you expected, any running issues at any revs or throttle position), a custom dyno map might make sense. That said, there's no downside to getting that custom map other than the cost, so it's really up to you whether spending $300 is cost effective either up front or a few months down the line.

Wow. Could not have said it better myself!

Jason - you indicated in an e-mail to me that it was running significantly better with our baseline Map that we sent to you. If that is still the case, see the above and simply enjoy the ride. Obviously a custom tune can make improvements. But that is also making a very big assumption that the actual dyno tuner you work with, can make improvements that you can truly feel and appreciate once your bike is removed from the dyno and run under real world conditions on the road.

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by Jason5885

I don't want to be giving the dyno $300 if im not going to get much better than what i now have if you understand.

Your not...it would be just redoing what Kerry's company has already done.
That man is GOOD...I'd take his map and just run it. I doubt you'll see any issues.

[Somchai]

Jason let me ask you two questions:
1. Is the environment where you live the same as it is where the dyno-run was made?
2. Is the fuel in Scotland the same as it is in America?
Please answer all those easy questions by yourself and if the answers here are yes, then it could seem to be fine - but see the next point also.
As a short answer from me: Nowhere in the world you'll find two engines with the exact same condition and a fuel-mapping made with a dyno-run in America can not be the best one in Scotland and even a second bike from the same type on the same dyno in America at the same place like the first one will show its own, different mapping to the first. If anybody is telling you the opposite, then he can be called an magician or traveling entertainer.
I would recommend you to ride your Ninja for one week with the stock setup in mapping (all values zero in the PCV) and then change to the given map, go out for a ride and see if you like it - but do this when the weather is warm again.
But when you want 100% result then spend the money and go to a serious and professional dyno, if not ask the other high qualified experts what to do.
In Germany we have a word which says: 'Don't look into the mouth of a horse which you've received as a gift' and as addition from me: But then also accept when you get less than 100 per cent.
And if you are not in the need to win a race, just go with the map you have by now, especially since I also guess you won't feel any difference and 1 hp more or less won't matter.
A serious professional once said: 'Best drive-ability can be achieved not in dyno, but data-logging the running bike by an experienced tuner.'

[EsrTek]

Sorry didn't notice your country....and reverse my position.

Probably enough geographic changes to justify a custom map, but I agree to try Kerry's 1st.

[Jason5885]

UPDATE.

I've been running my bike on Kerrys map for about 2-3 weeks. Last week my bike started spluttering and not idling, cutting out etc.

Yep, you've guessed it, too rich for my bike and drowned the plugs.

So I've decided to book the Dyno for next tuesday, my only worry is, i just fitted Pirelli rosso 2's, will the dyno ruin the rear wheel? Or is the 250 not powerful enough to cause the damage that happens with larger bikes?

[pratik06]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Wow. Could not have said it better myself!

Jason - you indicated in an e-mail to me that it was running significantly better with our baseline Map that we sent to you. If that is still the case, see the above and simply enjoy the ride. Obviously a custom tune can make improvements. But that is also making a very big assumption that the actual dyno tuner you work with, can make improvements that you can truly feel and appreciate once your bike is removed from the dyno and run under real world conditions on the road.

I have covered over 12,000 kms with the map provided by AreaP and Kerry. I have found it to be spot on right from the word go. I use my bike year round and it has worked like a gem through all seasons. I have seen my friends struggle with Power Commanders and Bazzaz unit and one thing that I can emphatically say is all that hardware with all those bells and whistles is useless without a good fuel map.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Jason5885

UPDATE.

I've been running my bike on Kerrys map for about 2-3 weeks. Last week my bike started spluttering and not idling, cutting out etc.

Yep, you've guessed it, too rich for my bike and drowned the plugs.

So I've decided to book the Dyno for next tuesday, my only worry is, i just fitted Pirelli rosso 2's, will the dyno ruin the rear wheel? Or is the 250 not powerful enough to cause the damage that happens with larger bikes?

Smart choice!!!

As far as the tire getting ruined no, it will not ruin the tire. I have dyno tuned countless bikes and never have I had a tire ruined from the dyno even with 300hp bikes.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by pratik06

I have covered over 12,000 kms with the map provided by AreaP and Kerry. I have found it to be spot on right from the word go. I use my bike year round and it has worked like a gem through all seasons. I have seen my friends struggle with Power Commanders and Bazzaz unit and one thing that I can emphatically say is all that hardware with all those bells and whistles is useless without a good fuel map.

Some people get lucky with drop in maps, others not so lucky. I have had two identical bikes with same pipes require a 5% change in fuel up top. That could be a difference of 13.0:1 AFR to 13.5:1 AFR.

It could be as simple as a casting mark in the head throwing the change off but I have seen it happen before.

Your best bet it to dyno tune or buy a wideband O2 and tune yourself.

[Jason5885]

Originally Posted by pratik06

I have covered over 12,000 kms with the map provided by AreaP and Kerry. I have found it to be spot on right from the word go. I use my bike year round and it has worked like a gem through all seasons. I have seen my friends struggle with Power Commanders and Bazzaz unit and one thing that I can emphatically say is all that hardware with all those bells and whistles is useless without a good fuel map.

I wish i was so lucky, it ran totally fine, untill one fateful morning last week it sounded TERRIBLE on startup. Like it was filled with water lol.

Went to the garage nearby and they looked at the plugs i installed 7 days prior in it's 4500 mile service, they were black. They took out the plugs, put new ones in and unplugged my Pc. I guess its really true and every bike is different, on paper my bike was identical to the one on the map. Same filters etc.

Originally Posted by garth285

Smart choice!!!

As far as the tire getting ruined no, it will not ruin the tire. I have dyno tuned countless bikes and never have I had a tire ruined from the dyno even with 300hp bikes.

This is good to know, thanks for the reassurance buddy.

Am i able to ask him to put an emphasis on torque Or HP ? or does the dyno just do his thing and try and get the best of everything?

[Somchai]

Jason you must the guy, doing the dyno run, not ask about torque or hp - the dyno is always measuring torque and calculating this to hp.
Good idea doing the dyno run and wish you good success

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Jason5885

This is good to know, thanks for the reassurance buddy.

Am i able to ask him to put an emphasis on torque Or HP ? or does the dyno just do his thing and try and get the best of everything?

A good tuner will be able to give you the best of both worlds, great fuel milage and great hp/tq

You have to look at it this way, a power commander/bazzaz give you a table from 0% to 100% throttle and then 0rpm to redline. There is no reason to run a bike rich on the bottom end so a good tuner will be able to lean out your cruising RPM's and TPS's and then when you are at say 40-60% Throttle and up you should have that good rich air fuel mixture that will make that good hp/tq

Normally you will want the following air fuel ratios:

Idle 13.0-13.5
Crusing 14.5-15.5
WOT 12.8-13.2

Now you have to keep in mind every bike is different and ever pipe will make your best air fuel change. Some bikes like it a little leaner (13.2) and some like it a little richer (12.8) but that is where the dyno comes in, you can make a run see what hp it does, change that air fuel and see if it makes any better hp.

Also a good tuner will be able to transition you crusing to WOT smoothly and taper down that 14.5:1 to 12.8:1 as you give the bike more throttle

So if you are in a turn and are say at 5,000rpm with only 10% throttle and you roll on that throttle or progressivly open that throttle when you are at 10% throttle you should be at 14.5:1 then this should happen

10% - 14.5
20% - 14.2
40% - 13.8
60% - 13.4
80% - 13.2
100% - 13.0

Follow me?

I will give you one more option as far as dyno tuning, buy a wideband o2!

It costs about $250 US for a decent wideband o2 and you can tune your bike forever all by your self. Heck you can even email me your logs and your maps and I can help tune it (have done it before even with turbo bikes)

But that may be more than you want to bite into!

Food for thought.

LEt me know if I lost you or not lol

[Jason5885]

Originally Posted by garth285

A good tuner will be able to give you the best of both worlds, great fuel milage and great hp/tq

You have to look at it this way, a power commander/bazzaz give you a table from 0% to 100% throttle and then 0rpm to redline. There is no reason to run a bike rich on the bottom end so a good tuner will be able to lean out your cruising RPM's and TPS's and then when you are at say 40-60% Throttle and up you should have that good rich air fuel mixture that will make that good hp/tq

Normally you will want the following air fuel ratios:

Idle 13.0-13.5
Crusing 14.5-15.5
WOT 12.8-13.2

Now you have to keep in mind every bike is different and ever pipe will make your best air fuel change. Some bikes like it a little leaner (13.2) and some like it a little richer (12.8) but that is where the dyno comes in, you can make a run see what hp it does, change that air fuel and see if it makes any better hp.

Also a good tuner will be able to transition you crusing to WOT smoothly and taper down that 14.5:1 to 12.8:1 as you give the bike more throttle

So if you are in a turn and are say at 5,000rpm with only 10% throttle and you roll on that throttle or progressivly open that throttle when you are at 10% throttle you should be at 14.5:1 then this should happen

10% - 14.5
20% - 14.2
40% - 13.8
60% - 13.4
80% - 13.2
100% - 13.0

Follow me?

I will give you one more option as far as dyno tuning, buy a wideband o2!

It costs about $250 US for a decent wideband o2 and you can tune your bike forever all by your self. Heck you can even email me your logs and your maps and I can help tune it (have done it before even with turbo bikes)

But that may be more than you want to bite into!

Food for thought.

LEt me know if I lost you or not lol

Got to be honest with you Shawn... i'm getting the gist of what your saying, but the numbers are confusing me. This wideband option is interesting me, is that something that just records the ratio's / data and you can view it and tweak it yourself?

[Jason5885]

One more thing. I've got a 34 minute drive to the dyno..

The powercommander is now disconnected so it will be running very lean with the stock map. Is there potential for damage?

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Jason5885

Got to be honest with you Shawn... i'm getting the gist of what your saying, but the numbers are confusing me. This wideband option is interesting me, is that something that just records the ratio's / data and you can view it and tweak it yourself?

Dont let the numbers scare you to much, the main numbers you will want to keep in mind is:

Idle 13.0-13.5
Crusing 14.5-15.5
WOT 12.8-13.2

I normally will always idle my bikes at about 13.3 cruising I will set it to about 15.0 and WOT I run 12.9.

If you are not a crazy track rider almost all your tuning will be done down low where your cruise range is, and tuning the WOT is very easy since you really only need to do a few WOT runs.

Like I said before if you need help you can always email me a map and a log and it will be very easy to modify a map for you if you have trouble but once you get your hands inside the logger and PCV it will be a piece of cake.

Here are the Innovate part numbers you will need:

Innovate LM-2 Basic Kit - 3837 - $327
Innovate Aux input cable - 3811- $28

Innovate sells a suction cup mount but they charge about $45 for it, I found the exact same one for about $25 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/809-PANAVISE.../301465041293?

One more thing you will need an SD card for the logger but it has to be a older type (A regular SD not SDHC).

Maybe check out EBay in your country and see if the prices will be about the same and not to costly.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Jason5885

One more thing. I've got a 34 minute drive to the dyno..

The powercommander is now disconnected so it will be running very lean with the stock map. Is there potential for damage?

Not likely, it will probably run better than with the power commander hooked up if it is over fueling so much.

[Jason5885]

Originally Posted by garth285

A good tuner will be able to give you the best of both worlds, great fuel milage and great hp/tq

You have to look at it this way, a power commander/bazzaz give you a table from 0% to 100% throttle and then 0rpm to redline. There is no reason to run a bike rich on the bottom end so a good tuner will be able to lean out your cruising RPM's and TPS's and then when you are at say 40-60% Throttle and up you should have that good rich air fuel mixture that will make that good hp/tq

Normally you will want the following air fuel ratios:

Idle 13.0-13.5
Crusing 14.5-15.5
WOT 12.8-13.2

Now you have to keep in mind every bike is different and ever pipe will make your best air fuel change. Some bikes like it a little leaner (13.2) and some like it a little richer (12.8) but that is where the dyno comes in, you can make a run see what hp it does, change that air fuel and see if it makes any better hp.

Also a good tuner will be able to transition you crusing to WOT smoothly and taper down that 14.5:1 to 12.8:1 as you give the bike more throttle

So if you are in a turn and are say at 5,000rpm with only 10% throttle and you roll on that throttle or progressivly open that throttle when you are at 10% throttle you should be at 14.5:1 then this should happen

10% - 14.5
20% - 14.2
40% - 13.8
60% - 13.4
80% - 13.2
100% - 13.0

Follow me?

I will give you one more option as far as dyno tuning, buy a wideband o2!

It costs about $250 US for a decent wideband o2 and you can tune your bike forever all by your self. Heck you can even email me your logs and your maps and I can help tune it (have done it before even with turbo bikes)

But that may be more than you want to bite into!

Food for thought.

LEt me know if I lost you or not lol

Nipped into the dyno today. Here's my results. He's stayed as close to 13.25 as he can it seems. WHAT a difference driving it home. Brilliant.

[garth285]

BRAVO!!!!! That looks like money well spent! Look how rich that old map was!!! 12:1 AFR is NO GOOD for a N/A bike!!!

4hp gain is pretty awesome for this bike!!! Thats a 15% increase of power.

Conrgats, always nice to see good power gained.