Words of wisdom from another forum...

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by revstriker

And how exactly is this a bias toward smaller bikes? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't be posting on this forum because I no longer own a Ninja 250?

Not at all, everyone's welcome to be a fan. I think the point was that one month's experience with a bike isn't necessarily equal to several years and several tens of thousands of miles experience. I know that I'm still finding capabilities of my '06 after 25 months and 25,800 miles of riding it.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by voidrider

Hear Hear!

Are there times where more accessible acceleration or hp desirable? Certainly. But, I tend to agree that the main factor is NOT the bike, but the rider, and in particular, the rider's situational awareness.

Consider two scenarios: The first is a rider on a small "underpowered" bike who is REALLY alert, head on a swivel, knows where traffic is and where it is going. They KNOW they can't "twist the wrist" and shoot out of a bad scene. They know they have to play the thinking game even just passing on a highway.

The latter is a rider who starts to *rely* on the throttle to get out of bad spots that they should have never allowed to develop around them in the first place.

Oh, certainly, someone could suddenly swerve across two lanes of traffic and take out either rider, but what I am getting is "normal riding" not the exceptional and is more about having your head in the game.

I've heard a couple riders talk about "I was going down this highway, and suddenly this semi-truck nearly sideswiped me off the road"! Say what?!? Did someone teleport the semi-truck next to them? Did it suddenly arrive via a portal? Nope, that was a serious case of just not paying attention.

Check you six, often. Make planning "escape routes" a constant game. I find that motorcycling is an odd partner with having a "nervous/anxious disposition". Its just my nature to be somewhat paranoid when riding, and while riding, its actually healthy!

But yes, not all 250s are created equal...and the Ninja is probably the most highway worthy one I know of.

Just a couple of comments on this. I don't think your hypothetical is a fair comparison. I don't think that just because a rider is on a larger bike means their head is any less "in the game". I also don't think a responsible driver purposely puts them self into situations where they would have to quickly accelerate, and "rely" on their throttle to get out. But for any rider on any bike, knowing both the capability and the limitations of your bike will make you a better rider.

As for your semi comment, I have seen this happen more than once when passing a truck. It's not that the truck just magically appears, or that the rider is not aware of the truck. It's when the truck unexpectedly starts to merge into your lane as you are initiating a pass.

I do completely agree with your last recommendations though. Being aware of what's around you, and even being a little paranoid about it will help contribute to your safety. And always thinking about escape routes (where added acceleration can be an advantage here) is very important for when that truck does try to merge into your lane and cut you off.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Not at all, everyone's welcome to be a fan. I think the point was that one month's experience with a bike isn't necessarily equal to several years and several tens of thousands of miles experience. I know that I'm still finding capabilities of my '06 after 25 months and 25,800 miles of riding it.

Fair enough. And for the record, I have never claimed to be an expert on the capabilities of the Ninja 250. But I don't really need 25k+ in miles on it to know that it's ability to accelerate is not the same (less than)than a lot of bigger bikes. This is what I believe my comments were restricted to.

[Reddoak]

Originally Posted by Reddoak

People that need the throttle to get them out a situation are usually responsible for getting into that situation in the first place with poor riding habits or decision making skills.

Let me clarify and expand on what I meant when I posted this. If the only avenue you have left to escape from a hazardous situation is to accelerate, you have likely made a poor decision to put you in that situation. This is not true all of the time. However, if you've gotten yourself boxed in, and need to goose it to get out of harms way, you never should have been there in the first place. That's not something that applies to only a Ninja 250, by the way. That applies to any motorcycle, large or small. You should have recognized the developing situation, and either accelerated, turned or braked earlier, while you still had more options. Note, I put a qualifier in my original statement, in that I said usually, not always. Situations happen through no fault of the rider, that the only safe option is to accelerate. In that situation... I'd rather not be on a small displacement bike.


Regarding the 250's road worthiness in regards to mitigating safety:
Well, let's be honest and fair, the 250 does not have an excess of power. So, to ride it safely, especially around traffic, you need to understand both its capabilities and limitations. Since one of the limitations is it's low rate of acceleration, especially compared to most larger displacement motorcycles, an intelligent rider learns to stay more aware of their surroundings, as they effectively have 2 options for avoidance, braking and turning. They have two avenues of avoidance, rear and sides. Three, really, but you know what I mean, yes?

On a more powerful motorcycle, you have another option, toward the front, by accelerating out of a situation. Obviously, three options are better than two. It frustrates some Ninja 250 owners to hear it, but the power of the 250 limits your options.

Now, hear me out for a second here before you assume I'm downing the 250; the problem with more power is that it is almost always the easiest, and often least safe choice. Here's why:

• Easiest: The throttle is always under your hand, and you always have a good general idea of what is in front of you, even if you aren't paying attention. You don't need to lift a hand, just twist the wrist and hang on. That is much easier than making sure the lanes next to you are clear before you maneuver laterally, or checking your six and braking.
  
• Least safe: Now, this may lead to debate, but I'll try to state my point. If you are in a hazardous situation, and at risk of being hit or dismounting your bike at speed, you will be injured more if you are going faster. Sliding to a stop in street gear at 60 MPH sucks. I don't care how good your gear is. Sliding to a stop from 90 MPH sucks more. Don't believe me? Fine. You win, don't try it to prove wrong, though... By accelerating, you are increasing your speed; lowering the time you have to react to other hazards, increasing the amount of damage you will sustain if you are dropped, and increasing stopping distances and handling ability.

Let's say we have our hypothetical situation of being surround in a pack of heavy traffic. You have 4 options, let's break them down:

1. Stay where you are. This is not good, if you are in a higher risk situation, it's better to correct it.
   
2. Accelerate ahead of the pack. Good solution, as it gets you into clear road, however, now you have a large group of vehicles behind you. If you're dropped by another hazard, you risk having them trample (i.e. kill) you.
   
3. Brake, and ease back for the pack of vehicles. Odds are, the safest solution, as you are going slower, and the group of vehicles that you potentially run you down is no longer in a position to do so. The downside, of course, is that you have to go slower for a brief period. Then you can accelerate and maintain speed with the group in front of you.
   
4. Panic. Lock the front tire and high side, killing yourself amidst all the group of other vehicles. The advantage of this is that it can be accomplished very quickly, and will insure it does not occur again. The disadvantage is that you will no longer be able to ride.

I'm not sure if I really have a point here, but I'll summarize none the less: If you learn to ride on a slower bike, your options will be limited, and you will likely learn to use more safe options as a regular habit. This does not mean that if you learn on a larger bike that these options are not available to you, however! You can go buy a ZX-14, and learn to be a safe, competent, highly skilled rider. But I believe (opinion) that learning on a slower bike will encourage you to learn safer habits that are not throttle dependent. These safer habits will apply just as well on a larger displacement bike, but since they are not the easiest choice, they will not be reinforced as heavily.

[headshrink]

Let's settle this debate once and for all. To the dealerships, all of us! Report back in 6 months, then a year (if alive) with your findings.

[voidrider]

Revstriker & Reddoak-

Hope you guys can parse my mingled response.

You are absolutely right, a rider on a larger bike should have their head in the game "just as much". No doubt about that. Being complacent or nearly "too comfortable" on a bike can be just as dangerous as being so uncomfortable on a bike that discomfort becomes a constant distraction.

My concern is more about the rider who relies on the capabilities of their machine, rather than their own skills and intelligence. A pilot friend has made similar comments. One particular military man I know has said, "Soldiers use weapons, a good soldier never *relies* on his weapon. To me, relying on the throttle speaks of a similar issue. Most of the rider safety books stress that brakes will help you get out of a bad situation even faster than the throttle. But sure, its best have a full array of tools and options. Throttle does have it place. And you are absolutely spot on about knowing your bike and its capabilities (I know I need to get to a trackday to further my own knowledge of them for myself). I know "powerful rapid acceleration" over about 75 mph is just *not* in my bag of tricks on the 250, I am painfully aware of it, so I try to mitigate that with trying to up my situational awareness.

The semi truck comment - you may be right. Perhaps that is what the riders I heard were talking about. It sounded to me that they were humming along the highway, and then BWAAAAAAAA! truck horn snapped them back. Startled they realized they were being overtaken by "a truck that just appeared". The stretch of highway in question is in N. Nevada and has sight lines that exceed 5 miles...hence my surprise at their surprise. Maybe they had sucumbed to highway hypnosis? (This is part of the reason I choose not to listen to music while riding).

Please don't think I am preaching never to accelerate out problem. It may be the very best action to take. Just last week I was in a small town's downtown area. I am riding in the left lane of a two lane one-way street. I was proceeding a bit faster than the general flow of traffic. Even though I am cautious about "being in a vehicles blind spot" or "along side another vehicle", as I was overtaking a large pick-up, the driver, without signal, did as you described, and just started to merge into me. I already had the speed such that I was overtaking the truck, I was nearer to the front than the rear. In front, the street was clear, to the rear, 3 cars, including one pulling out of a parking space. In that moment, I accelerated, and feel it was the right choice. Of course, this was on the street, and not on a highway. A highway situation would be different, speeds would be different, traffic spacing different, and hopefully there would be the "get on the shoulder" option as well.

I don't mind riding on the highways here, in Oregon (some of the slowest posted speed limits around, from what I hear). I *would* be a bit nervous where the actual speed of traffic is about 85 mph, regardless of what is posted. On the other hand, personally, I think interstates would not make the most enjoyable rides even on a Hayabusa. Give me a twisty country backroad and I am not going to be using all of the little Ninja's throttle for all the fun I can stand.

I want to thank you for your input. Its obvious you speak from your own personal experiences. It is really a duty for experienced riders to share their experiences, especially to newer riders. These forums are really great in that respect! We don't have to agree on everything, and "your mileage may vary". People have to make their own decisions, so the best we can do is lay out our thoughts and experiences. The readers will pick and choose what works for them. As long as the agenda is to be helpful, and the advice is not pure BS, its all good.


Not sure where the ever-present and contentious oil threads fit in though

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Fair enough. And for the record, I have never claimed to be an expert on the capabilities of the Ninja 250. But I don't really need 25k+ in miles on it to know that it's ability to accelerate is not the same (less than)than a lot of bigger bikes. This is what I believe my comments were restricted to.

I think we all know the 250 can't accelerate as quickly as the bigger bikes, that's a given. Where I disagree with you is the assumption that this performance difference somehow makes the 250 less safe, or more dangerous, to operate on public roads in this country. I honestly believe that when operated in a safe and prudent (and law-abiding) manner there is zero safety advantage to having a more powerful bike on any road in this country.

[rockNroll]

Having a powerfull bike means that you have another tool at your disposal. You can do good with it or you can do bad with it. Sheesh. Most of this "if you used power to get out of a situation, you probably caused the situation" stuff is crap and nothing more than typical sour grapes by people that probably shouldn't be giving out motorcycle riding advice in the first place.

[oroboros]

There must be some examples of where having a more powerful bike saved someone in a split second from being hit or squeezed off of the road. Surely there are many more examples of an extra risk being taken because of available power.
I know that I would probably use my powers for bad!

[bdavison]

Ive never heard of one single person in a motorcycle accident say..I wish I could have sped up faster"....

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

I think we all know the 250 can't accelerate as quickly as the bigger bikes, that's a given. Where I disagree with you is the assumption that this performance difference somehow makes the 250 less safe, or more dangerous, to operate on public roads in this country. I honestly believe that when operated in a safe and prudent (and law-abiding) manner there is zero safety advantage to having a more powerful bike on any road in this country.

I made no such assumption, in fact, I clearly stated that the that the acceleration advantage alone does not make one bike safer than another. There are very few times when increased acceleration is the only way to get out of a less than perfect situation. So I don't think this one factor has an effect on the safety of a bike. That said, the ability to have this (quickly accelerate ) as an option is an advantage of having a bike with more power.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Reddoak

Let's say we have our hypothetical situation of being surround in a pack of heavy traffic. You have 4 options, let's break them down:

1. Stay where you are. This is not good, if you are in a higher risk situation, it's better to correct it.
   
2. Accelerate ahead of the pack. Good solution, as it gets you into clear road, however, now you have a large group of vehicles behind you. If you're dropped by another hazard, you risk having them trample (i.e. kill) you.
   
3. Brake, and ease back for the pack of vehicles. Odds are, the safest solution, as you are going slower, and the group of vehicles that you potentially run you down is no longer in a position to do so. The downside, of course, is that you have to go slower for a brief period. Then you can accelerate and maintain speed with the group in front of you.
   
4. Panic. Lock the front tire and high side, killing yourself amidst all the group of other vehicles. The advantage of this is that it can be accomplished very quickly, and will insure it does not occur again. The disadvantage is that you will no longer be able to ride.

I think this is a well thought out post. I just have a couple of comments between accelerate and brake. Obviously, braking is by far going to be the best way to avoid something like a collision. I am not arguing that. But the best way to avoid getting into that situation is the first place is by being aware of where the vehicles are around you and adjusting your position accordingly. While the risks you listed of being ahead of the group is true, these are really the risks whenever you ride on the highway regardless of your position. Slowing down and moving to the back of a group can help you get out from being boxed in and give you more space, but you can also get quickly boxed in again unless traffic is very light. IMHO, being out in front offers you more safety.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by oroboros

There must be some examples of where having a more powerful bike saved someone in a split second from being hit or squeezed off of the road. Surely there are many more examples of an extra risk being taken because of available power.
I know that I would probably use my powers for bad!

Originally Posted by bdavison

Ive never heard of one single person in a motorcycle accident say..I wish I could have sped up faster"....

Using a little throttle to put myself in a better road position is something I use on a regular basis. This is a tool that is used to avoid a situation where you would be at a greater risk of getting into an accident. I would be surprised if the people on this forum do not use this to some degree too. But the ability to do this on a 650 is greater than on a 250 (in most cases).

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by voidrider

My concern is more about the rider who relies on the capabilities of their machine, rather than their own skills and intelligence. A pilot friend has made similar comments. One particular military man I know has said, "Soldiers use weapons, a good soldier never *relies* on his weapon. To me, relying on the throttle speaks of a similar issue. Most of the rider safety books stress that brakes will help you get out of a bad situation even faster than the throttle. But sure, its best have a full array of tools and options. Throttle does have it place. And you are absolutely spot on about knowing your bike and its capabilities (I know I need to get to a trackday to further my own knowledge of them for myself). I know "powerful rapid acceleration" over about 75 mph is just *not* in my bag of tricks on the 250, I am painfully aware of it, so I try to mitigate that with trying to up my situational awareness.

I agree with this. I'll just offer this: I think rider skill is in part, knowing and understanding the capabilities of your motorcycle, and using your motorcycles within its (and your) limits. As a former soldier, I also think this point applies there as well. The weapon does not make a soldier. But part of the skill you develop on being a soldier is developing an expertise with your weapon. In closing, people should remember that the brakes are also a tool on the bike. While we all know that our brakes are vital in helping to keep us safe and avoid collision, I'm sure most of us don't purposely ride dangerously knowing that our brakes will save us.

I want to thank you for your input. Its obvious you speak from your own personal experiences. It is really a duty for experienced riders to share their experiences, especially to newer riders. These forums are really great in that respect! We don't have to agree on everything, and "your mileage may vary". People have to make their own decisions, so the best we can do is lay out our thoughts and experiences. The readers will pick and choose what works for them. As long as the agenda is to be helpful, and the advice is not pure BS, its all good.

I agree. Thank you for your own input and your kind words.

[KJohnson21]

Originally Posted by revstriker

And how exactly is this a bias toward smaller bikes? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't be posting on this forum because I no longer own a Ninja 250?

No, as stated by FrugalNinja250, everyone is welcome.

I had noticed your other comment about your years of riding experience...

Originally Posted by revstriker

While I would never claim to be an expert rider, I do base my opinion on over 25 years of riding.

...and since 25 years can cover a lot, I was just wondering what other types/brands/models of motorcycles you've used. Also, a "guesstimate" of your overall motorcycling mileage would be interesting.

Thanks!

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by KJohnson21

No, as stated by FrugalNinja250, everyone is welcome.

I had noticed your other comment about your years of riding experience...



...and since 25 years can cover a lot, I was just wondering what other types/brands/models of motorcycles you've used. Also, a "guesstimate" of your overall motorcycling mileage would be interesting.

Thanks!

No problem. Perhaps the 25 years is misleading as I have not been a regular motorcycle rider the entire time. But for a quick summary: I got my first motorcycle in 1983. I owned the bike for a little over a year and did quite a bit of riding on it. I couldn't tell you how many miles for sure. I was in the army from 84 through 88. During this time I was best friends with someone who had a bike but no car. We would often trade vehicles. This was in Germany. I tried to ride his bike whenever I could. He had a HD 1200 (I think). He ended up getting rid of that in 87 or so and picking up a ninja. I loved that bike and from that point on, I have always wanted one. Had a lot of fun on this bike. I think I put more miles on it than he did. I didn't ride for a few years after the military, and then around 94 I moved in with a roomate who had 2 bikes; a HD and a Honda. When I moved out in 98 he had 5 bikes. In the summer we would ride almost every weekend. I bought another Kawi around 95 I think (not a sport bike). I had that bike about a year and sold it. I forget the name of the bike, but I didn't really like it that much. I didn't ride between 98 and 2003. Between 2003 and 2009 I probably rode maybe 25 times.

I couldn't even start to estimate how many miles I have ridden. I've always been friends with people who have had bikes so I have had the opportunity to ride many different bikes. I even had a chance to ride a Gold Wing on a 500 mile trip (that was a long day).

I am not an expert rider, and I don't pretend to be. But I also don't consider myself a nooby rider either. I appologize if my 25 years comment was misleading, I was only trying to indicate how long ago I started riding.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by kkim

I sure hope that's the bike's exhaust in that picture!

So Alex, was that photo taken during your slimmer years??

That totally just made me LMAO!