Switching Needles

DaBlue1 · April 17th, 2012, 01:21 PM

Anyone ever put new gen needles in a pre gen Ninja 250? Just curious.

choneofakind · April 17th, 2012, 01:32 PM

Not that I've heard of. The new gen ones are different lengths aren't they? That seems strange to me considering the needles you get in a jet kit are the same length.

DaBlue1 · April 17th, 2012, 02:03 PM

It's not so much the length that I was thinking about. It was more so about the taper. I was wondering how the 2008+ needles would work in a pre gen with a 2 into 1 exhaust or even a stock set up with matching 2008+ needles.

dale-j · April 17th, 2012, 02:45 PM

Needle taper, length and diameter is kind of a black art, the only guy who I know of who could reliably design a needle to improve the stock fuel curves is Ivan, here: http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/carbs.htm

As a disclaimer, I have not used Ivan's Ninja kit (I have a ZZR250 and Ivan was honest enough to tell me the kit was not going to help much due to the different airbox and exhaust on my bike vs what it is designed for) however his FZ1 kit is the stuff of legend among the crew on FZ1OA.

Probably better than messing with it, is to call Ivan and ask, or just order the kit.

DaBlue1 · April 17th, 2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dale-j

...Probably better than messing with it, is to call Ivan and ask, or just order the kit.

I've heard of and read about Ivan's Jet Kit. I was not looking to order one. I was trying to see if any one who likes to tinker has done what I was asking. And if no one has done it, now they have something to maybe try or think about.

dale-j · April 17th, 2012, 04:09 PM

I did something similar with my FZ1, playing with float heights, needle shimming, pilot jets, pilot air bleed screws and main jets, along with porting the intake boots, modifications to the airbox and a Yoshi slip on. I had the carbs out about 6 times in the process (this with the aid of an Innovate Motorsports MTX-L AFR gauge so as not to destroy the engine) and eventually got results almost as good as others did on their first try with Ivan's kit. My experimenting only cost me a couple months of my spare time, $40 in jets, and a $200 gauge.... and the results were *ALMOST* as good as those that others got just putting Ivan's kit in the first time as recommended.

Having been there, done that... go ahead, fill your boots. I did better than a Dynojet kit would have, and better than the Dale Walker kitted bike I rode. I'd say about the same as a factory pro kit in the end, but not as smooth as I would have had just buying the kit for less than half of my expenditure. Ivan's kit is worth the money... but if you go the other way I would really recommend the MTX-L so at least you get in to the ballpark without destroying your engine.

On my wife's Ninja, I just shimmed the needles and opened the pilot air bleeds to 2 1/4 turns, and then re-synced the carbs. Close enough as there are no other mods, but when you start changing other things you really need either a gauge or dyno time, as the butt dyno only tells you so much and plug chops can be misleading too.

choneofakind · April 17th, 2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

It's not so much the length that I was thinking about. It was more so about the taper. I was wondering how the 2008+ needles would work in a pre gen with a 2 into 1 exhaust or even a stock set up with matching 2008+ needles.

Well, if anyone has stock 08+ needles that they would be willing to send me, I would be willing to test them out for testing's sake. I have a 2-1 exhaust, and will have shimmed oem pregen needles to compare them to. Thing is, I don't really want to pay for this experiment

If someone is willing to send me a pair for free, I'm more than willing to do the testing work

EDIT: DaBlue1 you got me thinking. I want to get a second set and see if the lengths make a difference in performance because the taper will effectively be different if it's a different length. That way I can have a pair of each length.

Newgen members with jetkits; send me your stock needles. $10 shipped and we have a deal. I'm looking for 2 pairs total.

April 17th, 2012, 01:21 PM	#1
DaBlue1 Long Time Rider Name: Blue Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Switching Needles Anyone ever put new gen needles in a pre gen Ninja 250? Just curious.

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April 17th, 2012, 01:32 PM	#2
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	Not that I've heard of. The new gen ones are different lengths aren't they? That seems strange to me considering the needles you get in a jet kit are the same length.

April 17th, 2012, 02:03 PM	#3
DaBlue1 Long Time Rider Name: Blue Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	It's not so much the length that I was thinking about. It was more so about the taper. I was wondering how the 2008+ needles would work in a pre gen with a 2 into 1 exhaust or even a stock set up with matching 2008+ needles.

April 17th, 2012, 02:45 PM	#4
dale-j ninjette.org member Name: Steve Location: British Columbia, Canada Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2004 Moto Guzzi V11 LeMans, 2001 ZZR250 Posts: 38	Needle taper, length and diameter is kind of a black art, the only guy who I know of who could reliably design a needle to improve the stock fuel curves is Ivan, here: http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/carbs.htm As a disclaimer, I have not used Ivan's Ninja kit (I have a ZZR250 and Ivan was honest enough to tell me the kit was not going to help much due to the different airbox and exhaust on my bike vs what it is designed for) however his FZ1 kit is the stuff of legend among the crew on FZ1OA. Probably better than messing with it, is to call Ivan and ask, or just order the kit.

April 17th, 2012, 04:09 PM	#6
dale-j ninjette.org member Name: Steve Location: British Columbia, Canada Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2004 Moto Guzzi V11 LeMans, 2001 ZZR250 Posts: 38	I did something similar with my FZ1, playing with float heights, needle shimming, pilot jets, pilot air bleed screws and main jets, along with porting the intake boots, modifications to the airbox and a Yoshi slip on. I had the carbs out about 6 times in the process (this with the aid of an Innovate Motorsports MTX-L AFR gauge so as not to destroy the engine) and eventually got results almost as good as others did on their first try with Ivan's kit. My experimenting only cost me a couple months of my spare time, $40 in jets, and a $200 gauge.... and the results were ALMOST as good as those that others got just putting Ivan's kit in the first time as recommended. Having been there, done that... go ahead, fill your boots. I did better than a Dynojet kit would have, and better than the Dale Walker kitted bike I rode. I'd say about the same as a factory pro kit in the end, but not as smooth as I would have had just buying the kit for less than half of my expenditure. Ivan's kit is worth the money... but if you go the other way I would really recommend the MTX-L so at least you get in to the ballpark without destroying your engine. On my wife's Ninja, I just shimmed the needles and opened the pilot air bleeds to 2 1/4 turns, and then re-synced the carbs. Close enough as there are no other mods, but when you start changing other things you really need either a gauge or dyno time, as the butt dyno only tells you so much and plug chops can be misleading too.