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Old April 8th, 2015, 04:31 PM   #1
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please help with carb sync

K, so I went to sync my carbs. I have a slack tube manometer. My issue is the fluid keeps getting sucked into the intake. I had colored water, it keeps foaming up. I think I will drain it and use atf. Should be more stable. Anyway, I can't seem to adjust it without fliud coming up through the meter. What am I doing wrong?
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Old April 8th, 2015, 05:46 PM   #2
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Are you hooking up to both top nipples?

Check here:http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...carburetors%3F
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Old April 8th, 2015, 06:07 PM   #3
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Nipples. Lol. Sorry, I had to.
Yes, both vacuum nipples on the engine side of the carbs. It shouldn't be that far out. I've been riding it and it doesn't feel bad. Maybe with the thicker fluid, like oil It will make the monometer slower to respond to vacuum changes. Might give me more time to react and adjust.

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Old April 8th, 2015, 06:16 PM   #4
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Unless there's something wrong with the engine, or your tube slack is less than a couple feet, there should be no reason fluid is sucked in!

Maybe you're adjusting the screw too much? It only needs a very very very slight turn
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Old April 8th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #5
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My 2¢ on syncing,

You can get a reasonable sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.*

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.*

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided*

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.*

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.*

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.*

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.*

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 04:33 AM   #6
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I think I may have adjusted too much. its the only thing I can think of. @Ghostt, I haven't had any sudden changes in performance. just normal pm service after rebuilding the carbs and adjusting valves. most people say to use an oil instead of water in the meter. will give that a try.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 08:02 AM   #7
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@gantt

The right way to sync the carburetors is bench method. As you can read above the vacuum method has its faults, and the reasons why.

Your issue is very common when doing the vacuum sync.

Personally pull the carburetors and set them.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 09:30 AM   #8
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@Ghostt, I see your logic. but what about any differences in the two cylinders? would the vacuum sync have any benefit over the bench method? I could see the vacuum method helping to even out the two. next time I have some free time, I will pull the air filter and set the butterflies with a feeler gauge. it may not have even needed a sync, I didn't remove the carbs from the rack when I went through them. thanks for your help.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gantt View Post
@Ghostt, I see your logic. but what about any differences in the two cylinders? would the vacuum sync have any benefit over the bench method? I could see the vacuum method helping to even out the two. next time I have some free time, I will pull the air filter and set the butterflies with a feeler gauge. it may not have even needed a sync, I didn't remove the carbs from the rack when I went through them. thanks for your help.
Bench sync is the only proper method to sync carburetors. Vacuum sync has way too many variables that have nothing to do with the actual butterflies, as pointed out in my how-to guide.

Did you set the float height? Did you adjust and dial in the idle mixture screws? Idle jets, and fuel circuits clean? Etc.... See where I'm going with this......

My quick guide how-to on setting the pilot screws.



Quote:
Your initial setting should be 3 full turns out from the bottom, remember just slightly tighten them, don't go all Conan on them, as they are made of brass, which is soft, and can be damaged if over tightened.



Then warm it up, slowly turn 1 side pilot screw in until the rpms drop, then back out till RPM's peak (and no further)* Twist throttle...see how it reacts...tweak to taste.
Repeat on other side... test ride. You're looking for best throttle response and transition from just cracked to 1/4 throttle opening or so.*

Thats a quickie, 10 cent tutorial on setting pilot screws.**
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Old April 9th, 2015, 09:42 AM   #10
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I set the mixture screws out 2 3/4 turns out but haven't messed with them anymore. as for float height, I haven't touched it. assuming it was ok from the factory.(and we all know what assuming can do).
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Old April 9th, 2015, 09:46 AM   #11
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I set the mixture screws out 2 3/4 turns out but haven't messed with them anymore. as for float height, I haven't touched it. assuming it was ok from the factory.(and we all know what assuming can do).
Float height is the most and first critical step in setting up carburetors, also the most overlooked, if not set properly, the rest of the tuning will be out of wack. They should be set to 17mm Once that is done, then move on to bench sync, then dialing in the idle mixture screws.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_..._the_floats%3F
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Old April 24th, 2015, 04:51 PM   #12
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Using a heavier fluid like ATF or motor oil helps prevent it from being sucked into the motor.
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Old April 24th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #13
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Still not a proper carburetor sync IMHO
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 06:02 AM   #14
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But then again, its the approved method for syncing according to the service manual.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 07:20 AM   #15
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Cool

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Originally Posted by gantt View Post
........... What am I doing wrong?
Are you sure that the connecting hoses and connections are free of air leak?
Same will happen to the same column of liquid if you reverse the connections?

If the vacuum created in one manifold respect to the other has a difference in inches of water that is actually so big, you may have a problem of leaking valves, as explained above, or something as simple as a leaking manifold.

Please, take a look at these:
http://www.dansmc.com/balancecarbs.htm

http://www.dansmc.com/leakdown.htm
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 10:48 AM   #16
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But then again, its the approved method for syncing according to the service manual.
I respectfully disagree with the service manual.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 07:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
My 2¢ on syncing,

You can get a reasonable sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.*

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.*

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided*

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.*

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.*

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.*

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.*

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.
thanx ghost
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Old July 9th, 2017, 07:22 AM   #18
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That is great information! Never thought of the feeler gauge to adjust the butterflies. Makes perfect sense. Do as much on the bench as you can, less on the bike!
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:36 AM   #19
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i should have got this right off the get go! now i can throw it in back pack and tweak to my hearts content!
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Old August 5th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #20
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if this is a stock set up with kleen air you'll want to install t's into the existing lines just above the vac ports on the carbs, the petcock and the egr both act as vac leaks and if you dont sync the carbs with both egr and petcock valves in place your sync will be out when you replug your lines. best to insert t's into the line so as not to disturb the vacuum circuits for left and right ports. some people will go "well that doesnt make sense" but if you factor in the two items petcock and egr it does make sense and it makes a big difference. the reason being is if your petcock or egr is faulty you'll be syncing to compensate for the bias vacuum pressure. they're right, bench sync then hook up vac lines with your extra inline t's to hook your manometer too and sync with mild touches with engine at operating temp. TOASTY.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #21
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if this is a stock set up with kleen air you'll want to install t's into the existing lines just above the vac ports on the carbs, the petcock and the egr both act as vac leaks and if you dont sync the carbs with both egr and petcock valves in place your sync will be out when you replug your lines. best to insert t's into the line so as not to disturb the vacuum circuits for left and right ports. some people will go "well that doesnt make sense" but if you factor in the two items petcock and egr it does make sense and it makes a big difference. the reason being is if your petcock or egr is faulty you'll be syncing to compensate for the bias vacuum pressure. they're right, bench sync then hook up vac lines with your extra inline t's to hook your manometer too and sync with mild touches with engine at operating temp. TOASTY.
ummmm why? if you bench seat it, none of that matters.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 01:03 PM   #22
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ummmm why? if you bench seat it, none of that matters.
how so? just because your butterflies are equal doesnt mean vacuum will be equal does it? Perhaps what I've come to learn as what works isnt correct or works fine but is just a misguided view on *why* but if your hoses leak or your aribox leaks around one carb wont that cause an issue with sync as well? from what i understand bench syncing with a feeler guage is just for getting close to a baseline for sync then you fine tune it with the engine running and guages. thats how i do it anyways seems to work great.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 01:10 PM   #23
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how so? just because your butterflies are equal doesnt mean vacuum will be equal does it? Perhaps what I've come to learn as what works isnt correct or works fine but is just a misguided view on *why* but if your hoses leak or your aribox leaks around one carb wont that cause an issue with sync as well? from what i understand bench syncing with a feeler guage is just for getting close to a baseline for sync then you fine tune it with the engine running and guages. thats how i do it anyways seems to work great.
did u read ghostt comments on this? i did it and my carbs are synchronized perfectly. ghostt is right, take all the vacauum and the other bs out of the equation and do it old school. it works! sometimes ya gotta go with your gut. ghostt hit the mark on this one!
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Old August 5th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #24
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did u read ghostt comments on this? i did it and my carbs are synchronized perfectly. ghostt is right, take all the vacauum and the other bs out of the equation and do it old school. it works!
GASP! really? I feel pretty stupid then haha no shame admitting when i am wrong. i am going to try it for the sake of trying it.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #25
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GASP! really? I feel pretty stupid then haha no shame admitting when i am wrong. i am going to try it for the sake of trying it.
old school always wins in da end. crap, i'm in my 50's...
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Old August 5th, 2017, 02:08 PM   #26
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I'm also in my 50s and been doing this for a very, very very long time.

If you read my write-up, and understand the true meaning of Carb sync then bench sync is the only true way to go. As I've stated in my write-up too many other factors come into play when doing the vacuum method.

Is funny that people blame the Carb sync for a problem that just popped up, odds are it's something else, valve adjustment, float adjusted properly, spark plugs caps, HT leads, have the idle mixture screws been dialed in, etc..... You see where I'm going with this..... A, sudden change in performance isn't a sync issue

Too many times I've seen it go horribly wrong, and cause people to chase a problem that they themselves has caused, and the problem won't go away due to the damage has been done, so to speak, and not corrected.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
I'm also in my 50s and been doing this for a very, very very long time.

If you read my write-up, and understand the true meaning of Carb sync then bench sync is the only true way to go. As I've stated in my write-up too many other factors come into play when doing the vacuum method.

Is funny that people blame the Carb sync for a problem that just popped up, odds are it's something else, valve adjustment, float adjusted properly, spark plugs caps, HT leads, have the idle mixture screws been dialed in, etc..... You see where I'm going with this..... A, sudden change in performance isn't a sync issue

Too many times I've seen it go horribly wrong, and cause people to chase a problem that they themselves has caused, and the problem won't go away due to the damage has been done, so to speak, and not corrected.
that makes sense, like trying to compensate on one cyl for something bad happeneing on another by resyncing it but really its just masking the issue that's really at fault. i need to pull my carbs tomorrow and give them a look over just out of paranoia so i think i will do just this and see how it turns out.
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Old August 5th, 2017, 03:50 PM   #28
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Now your getting my point.

Odds are the sync is fine, Kawasaki did that right, but it never hurt to check
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Old August 6th, 2017, 09:12 PM   #29
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Frickin eye balling it worked. :|
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Old August 7th, 2017, 02:16 PM   #30
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Recently split and serviced my 900SS Ducati downdraft Mikuni's....performed a bench synch...visual method using certain reference points...exact same method I routinely employ within my carb service.

Upon completion I verified synch using my pro mercury manometer....untouched results (see pic) ...NO further adjustment needed.

IMHO bench synch is quite accurate...provided correctly, precisely done. Proof is in the puddin', as they say.

************************************************************
An aside...to address homemade manometers sucking liquids...pro devices use tiny restrictors in each hose....much like pilot jets.

Suggestion...perhaps experiment a bit using equal sized main or pilot jets inserted into each hose?
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:31 PM   #31
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I've had very good results with electronic syncing gauges as well. Uses MAP sensors.
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