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Old July 11th, 2015, 08:34 PM   #1
higear223
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Bogs from 2000 to 2500 rpm

No matter what I do I cannot get this boggy spot from 2000 to 2500 rpm out of my Ninja.

Current configuration:
airbox removed, K&N RU-1822's, kleen air removed
full AreaP stainless 12"
Keihn 40 pilot
Dynojet 110 main
Dynojet needle with clip #4 from top
mixture screws adjusted in until rpm drops, then out a quarter (probably out about 2.5)
about 400 ft above sea level
outside temp hot as hell in TN in July
Carb floats 17mm

The bike runs great otherwise. I've tried pilot jets from 38 to 42, different needle settings, everything I can think of.

What am I missing, oh great Ninjette hive mind?
Its driving me crazy.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 03:54 AM   #2
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As far as my experience goes on tuning with the idle circuit, when the RPM lowers or is raised, you should then adjust the main idle, and tune the next carb.

Start with whichever carb is the main one (on my FZR it is carb #2). To test your tune, the bike has to be fully warm.

The testing is easy. Blip throttle. Revs should raise instantly and not bog. Raise throttle slowly and then chop it. RPM should drop straight to idle. Revs hanging higher than idle = lean. Revs dropping below idle or stalling = rich.

The engine was designed to run with the airbox. You should keep it. By all means modify it (remove airbox snorkel etc) but pod filters are one of the worst things you can do. Classic scenario - "Help! I replaced the main jets & idle jets with bigger ones! I also put pod filters on. Why does my bike run like ****!?" - Bigger jets mean more fuel yes, but at the same time you have to force more AIR into the combustion chamber, otherwise you run too rich and lose power. The airbox works because of vacuum. You lose this with pod filters.

Try using the airbox setup, the standard size idle jet, standard needle clip settings, standard main jet sizes, and standard idle mixture screw settings.

Change 1 thing at a time and re-test.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 07:02 AM   #3
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You need to isolate the throttle position (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, etc) where you are having the issue.

Use throttle position, not RPMs, to determine which carb circuit is not tuned correctly.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 12:00 PM   #4
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The problem is from 1/8 to 1/4 throttle. Pilot jet?
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Old July 12th, 2015, 12:03 PM   #5
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1/8-1/4 at 2000 rpm?

Play with your float height. Factory spec says 17mm +or- 2mm. That's a ton of adjustment range. I found with pod filters and floats at exactly 17mm, there was a huuuuuuge hesitation at exactly that range. I could snap the throttle further open and get into my needle range, but parking lots and low speed maneuvers were annoying. My issue was worse when cold than hot. I've since raised the floats 1mm to 16mm height and it seems better. Will try another mm soon to see if that cures it completely. YMMV and this takes some testing. As said above, make one small change at a time and then test.

If your issue is worse when cold but goes away some when hot, raise the floats (reduce the float height).

If your issue is worse when hot than when cool, lower the floast (increase float height).

Also humor us and make sure that there are no broken vacuum hoses or loose vacuum hoses to rule that out as an issue. Vacuum leak can sometimes cause the issue you're describing.



As mentioned above, there is a theoretical argument for not using pods on a CV style carb. However, many have had good success on these bikes with using pod filters. They can be tuned well, they do still run reliably, they just make a ton of intake noise getting there and you will notice weather changes more with pods than with the airbox. That said, if you're willing to pull the intake runners out of your stock air box and stick your pod filters onto that, some say that can help smooth out your intake flow and help with consistency. I've found it really just makes the filter easier to remove from the carb to make removing the carb easier so it doesn't have to be maneuvered around the tank bracket. So far, no solid personal feedback on runners vs. no runners because of all the stinking rain the last 4 weeks. Yes, by switching to pods, you lose intake resonance. However, this is not an optimized supersport; they did not spend as much time as they could have in that department. Area P has shown on both the newgen 250 and the current 300 that pod filters make more power than the airbox and can be tuned well to deliver reliable and ride-able fueling.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin View Post
The airbox works because of vacuum.
Please explain this statement, if you will.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 01:07 PM   #7
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Does it just fall flat, or does it stutter and stumble when you get to that range (1/8 to 1/4 open)?

The new Dynojet needles may be off. I would try the stock needles, and then add a shim, then 2, and test again. It's possible they are too lean or too rich for your particular conditions. If you can get a good idle at the correct speed within the 2 to 3 1/2 turns out on the idle mixture screws I would say the pilot jet is correct. I would also sync the carbs.

I was tuning a small 2-stroke street bike that I recently purchased, and it would stumble terribly as I opened the throttle 1/8 to 1/4. It would idle and pull away fine, and pull hard at WOT, but in between it was a mess. I adjusted the clip on the needle up and down all the way without a significant improvement. I decided to get a leaner jet needle ("needle") and it helped, but even at the leanest setting it was still rich. I ended-up getting a leaner needle jet as well - this particular carb (Mikuni flatslide) as a removable needle jet that works with the jet needle to regulate the mid-throttle mixture.

BTW, a Mikuni (Sudco) tech I spoke with said that changing the float height does not effect the mixture - which I always believed it did.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 01:18 PM   #8
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I was wondering about float height which is why I made sure they were set exactly at 17. That's something I'll look at again.

Although I'm pretty sure there is no vacuum leak but I will check to be sure.

I tried reattaching the intake runners and putting the pods on them but it had no noticeable effect.

As far as reinstalling the airbox, that ship has sailed I think after seeing how well it runs after this one bad spot.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 01:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Does it just fall flat, or does it stutter and stumble when you get to that range (1/8 to 1/4 open)?

The new Dynojet needles may be off. I would try the stock needles, and then add a shim, then 2, and test again. It's possible they are too lean or too rich for your particular conditions. If you can get a good idle at the correct speed within the 2 to 3 1/2 turns out on the idle mixture screws I would say the pilot jet is correct. I would also sync the carbs.

I was tuning a small 2-stroke street bike that I recently purchased, and it would stumble terribly as I opened the throttle 1/8 to 1/4. It would idle and pull away fine, and pull hard at WOT, but in between it was a mess. I adjusted the clip on the needle up and down all the way without a significant improvement. I decided to get a leaner jet needle ("needle") and it helped, but even at the leanest setting it was still rich. I ended-up getting a leaner needle jet as well - this particular carb (Mikuni flatslide) as a removable needle jet that works with the jet needle to regulate the mid-throttle mixture.

BTW, a Mikuni (Sudco) tech I spoke with said that changing the float height does not effect the mixture - which I always believed it did.
It just stumbles and stutters then catches up.

I've heard yes and no about float height but I think I'll do some adjusting there. Plus or minus 2mm is quite a bit of wiggle room.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 02:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
It just stumbles and stutters then catches up.

I've heard yes and no about float height but I think I'll do some adjusting there. Plus or minus 2mm is quite a bit of wiggle room.
I'm going to say the needles are too rich.

Put them side-by-side with the original needles and compare their diameter and taper.

The stock needles are a bit lean, but usually a shim or 2 will richen it up enough to pull strong and cleanly through the range.

Have you looked at your plugs lately for an overall mixture?
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Old July 12th, 2015, 03:53 PM   #11
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Plugs look good. Maybe a tad lean.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 05:54 PM   #12
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Set the float height at 18mm and it seemed to help. I may leave it alone for a while. Or maybe not.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 05:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
Set the float height at 18mm and it seemed to help. I may leave it alone for a while. Or maybe not.
Does that mean the fuel level is now lower in the bowl?
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Old July 12th, 2015, 05:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
No matter what I do I cannot get this boggy spot from 2000 to 2500 rpm out of my Ninja.

Current configuration:
airbox removed, K&N RU-1822's, kleen air removed
full AreaP stainless 12"
Keihn 40 pilot
Dynojet 110 main
Dynojet needle with clip #4 from top
mixture screws adjusted in until rpm drops, then out a quarter (probably out about 2.5)
about 400 ft above sea level
outside temp hot as hell in TN in July
Carb floats 17mm

The bike runs great otherwise. I've tried pilot jets from 38 to 42, different needle settings, everything I can think of.

What am I missing, oh great Ninjette hive mind?
Its driving me crazy.
I have similar set up as you. No airbox, K&N pods with runners, I believe 108/38 on jets, 2 or 3 washers under meddles, Jardine slip on. If I recall, the mixture screw is where the magic is. I am no genius with carbs, I used the Factoy Pro kit and they're settings, then tweaked from there. I didn't need much. I have a somewhat slow warm up, but pulls consistent thru RPM range. I'll see if I can find my Factory Pro settings tomorrow. If you check their website, they may have it there.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Please explain this statement, if you will.
The restricted size of the intake on the airbox compared to the size of airbox creates a certain amount of vacuum inside. Airboxes are designed so that there is enough vacuum to feed the engine the correct amount of air in relation to the stock jet sizes inside the carbs. Pod filters change this. No airbox, different amount of vacuum, different amount of air, different jets and mixture settings required to get running properly again.

No airbox = improper amount of air = harder to tune. Impossible to tune if your bike has constant velocity carbs as my FZR250R does.

You can also mess with the airbox boots. A longer inlet tract (longer airbox boot) will move the peak power and torque to lower in the rev range. The reverse is also true.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/vie...hp?f=4&t=12772

Linkin's FZR250R 3LN3


The main point here is that to tune a bike, you have to change one thing at a time, test ride, and then adjust mixtures/jets accordingly.

So, for example. You have a jet kit and pod filters ready to install. If you install the jet get and the pod filters at the same time, you're in the dark as to how to tune the bike.

Let's say you have a stock Ninja 250R and you replace the airbox with pod filters. After you do so, the RPM is hanging and will not return to idle. In this situation, the pod filters are allowing more air in, leaning out the mixture. Therefore, you need to adjust the idle circuit to compensate. You'll know you have the correct settings when the bike idles as it did with the airbox. Which means, no bogging down when you twist the throttle, no bogging or stalling below idle speed when you release the throttle, and also no hanging when you release the throttle.

That's just for the idle circuit.

Moving on to the main jets, after replacing the airbox with pod filters, you'll ideally need a dyno and AFR readings to tune any rich or lean spots.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #16
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Ehhhhhhh... I disagree. Let me explain.

Let's take a step back and look at some fluid dynamics. We're going to look at calculating flow through an orifice. The flow rate of a fluid through a hole is a function of the area of the hole and the velocity of the fluid. The velocity is then function of the fluid is based on the pressure differential across the orifice. McNally Insitute writes textbooks and has a good explaination of the math here:
http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/13-html/13-12.htm

Now let's look at the carburetor. We have a CV, or Constant Velocity, carburetor. Based on the convergent shape of the carb, air is accelerated through the carb body, and therefore loses pressure as it goes. This is known as the venturi effect and is similar to how and airplane produces lift. This means that at the inlet to the carb (without airbox), air is at atmospheric pressure, while you have slightly less than atmospheric pressure at the outlet of the carb. This means we have a slight pressure differential across the carburetor. This is where our vacuum comes from for things like sucking fuel through the jets, opening the diaphragm in the petcock, etc. It's not "vacuum" so much as a low pressure area in the carb.

Since we have CV carbs, their claim to fame is that they attempt to keep a constant air velocity at all operating conditions. How does this happen? We know that when the engine revs faster and we suck air in faster, if we had a fixed size hole, we would create a larger and larger pressure differential across the carb and our engine would find itself limited for air. So one hole size that would work for idle intake would not likely work for full song intake hole size. This is where the slides come in. As your engine revs up and wants more air, instead of creating a bunch of restriction at the carb, the slide lifts, effectively increasing the size of the hole your engine is sucking through. Increasing the size of this hole as your pressure differential goes up flows more air and keeps the air speed constant. This is why the carbs are called constant velocity carbs; they do their best to keep the intake air velocity constant at all operating ranges so that you can meter fuel consistently through jets (using the same theory described above. Pressure differential, orifice size, etc).

Now lets move further from the engine and look at the airbox intake and apply our fluid dynamics to that setup. Your pistons move, pull air in. Again, your intake snorkel is a fixed size orifice through which air flows. This means your flow rate can be calculated the same way as above, based on orifice size and pressure differential. However, unlike our CV carbs, this orifice is constant and therefore, while it works well at idle, it presents a restriction as the engine revs faster and faster. At this point (we'll say 12,000 rpm) we have three distinct pressure zones in our intake (ignoring intake pulses due to the valves): we have atmospheric pressure outside, slightly lower pressure in the airbox, and slightly lower pressure than that in the outlet of the carb. The overall limit to flow rate is the airbox snorkel hole. As we both know the limit to power is fuel, the limit to burning fuel is air. To lift this limit, we have two options: 1) modify the airbox to have a bigger hole, or 2) ditch the airbox completely and use a pod filter. The biggest benefit of a basic airbox like this (I say basic because I doubt these cheap airboxes on these cheap bikes have been tuned for intake resonance to pressure the intake. This is where the Hemholtz theory you linked earlier comes in in a perfect MotoGP intake that has been tuned to perfection) is that the airbox supplies a nice consistent flow of air that is in a relatively smooth flow pattern. This is what CV carbs like because of how they work. Remember how the slides lift to keep a constant velocity through the throat of the carb based on pressure differential across the carb? If we have turbulent flow, this pressure differential is chaotic and inconsistent, where if we have a nice clean, perfect flow, the pressure differential is consistent and uniform, leading to smoother slide movement and consistent vacuum in the carb for sucking in fuel.

So!!! This means that in a basic air box, the benefit is smooth, laminar flow to create a constant pressure differential across the carb, allowing for more consistency with fueling. Let's say we want to get more air flow, and we cut more holes in our stock air box. Let's say we do this to an extreme and cut off everything past the filter. We basically now have a 5 sided box with a filter making up the sixth side, right? Tell me; what is the difference between this setup and a pod filter on a tube? To further the curiousity, look to Leo Vince, who recommends a pair of 50mm holes be cut in the backside of the stock airbox when their exhaust is installed. This is practically the same setup as I have suggested for thought, an open ended box with a filter. How is this different than a pod filter on an intake runner?

I will voice my thoughts here: pod filters are not the bane of a CV carb's existance. Turbulent flow is. CV carbs like smooth flow. So if you can figure out how to reduce the restriction in the intake but keep the air flow smooth, you'll be fine. These airboxes are so simple that I really am not considering resonance to be a major consideration. heck, the pregen was designed in the late 80's and back then the box was stuck on there just to hold the air filter, forget about optimizing intake pressure based on intake pulses


Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkin View Post
The restricted size of the intake on the airbox compared to the size of airbox creates a vacuum inside.uhhhhh... lost me. Comparing area to volume? Airboxes are designed so that there is enough vacuum to feed the engine the correct amount of air in relation to the stock jet sizes inside the carbs. vacuum feeds the engine? Also, you're backwards. The jets and carb settings are chosen to fuel based on the available flow through the given airbox. When we're talking about intake changes, forget the stock jets. Rejetting is assumed here.Pod filters change this. No airbox, no vacuum, different amount of air, different jets and mixture settings required to get running properly again.yes, pods flow more. That's how they're able to make more power and quicken throttle response, of course they're not going to have the same mixture using stock jetting. See above note about rejetting

No airbox = improper improper? how so? amount of air = harder to tune. Impossible to tune if your bike has constant velocity carbs as my FZR250R does. see above, my thoughts are that air flow turbulence is more important than total amount of air. If total air flow rate was what made tuning hard, CV carbs would be rated based on how much power they are limited to. Like you said, fuel limits power, air limits how much fuel you can burn. To change your fueling to match a change in airflow, you HAVE TO rejet

You can also mess with the airbox boots. A longer inlet tract (longer airbox boot) will move the peak power and torque to lower in the rev range. The reverse is also true.in my reading, this is more the case with the boots between the carbs and the head, not the boots between the carbs and the filter.

EDIT: I will say, in a modern superbike or supersport, where the intake is tuned for a specific characteristic of the engine and creates positive pressure in the intake to force air into the engine at a certain speed, I would NOT touch the intake past putting a high flow filter in the box. Those are optimized for lamiar flow, intake resonance, sound, etc etc etc and no average joe is going to be able to touch that. You could put a team of engineers with CFD software at their disposal, but even then, you'll get a different solution out of each team to work on that problem. With old/simpler/cheaper bikes like ours, go for it. Experiment, play, and use the butt-dyno all you want. Slap on a different filter, and change one thing at a time until it runs well. Heck, keep it stock, just don't tell people that the engine runs on vacuum and that ZOMG OEM IS BESTTTTT. You CAN tune these bikes well with a pod filter and rejetting. Reliable, consistent, perfect fueling. Its possible.
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Old July 12th, 2015, 08:21 PM   #17
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OP!

From what I've experienced farting around with these carbs, check out Factory Pro's instructions because they're pretty good:
http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_...m_engines.html

Main jets, needle height, float height, then idle mixture. Tune those items, in that order. Make one change at a time and then test ride.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 06:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
(SNIP)
I will voice my thoughts here: pod filters are not the bane of a CV carb's existance. Turbulent flow is. CV carbs like smooth flow. So if you can figure out how to reduce the restriction in the intake but keep the air flow smooth, you'll be fine. These airboxes are so simple that I really am not considering resonance to be a major consideration. heck, the pregen was designed in the late 80's and back then the box was stuck on there just to hold the air filter, forget about optimizing intake pressure based on intake pulses
I would agree.

That's why gains shown on the dyno (not moving) are not necessarily repeatable at speed - when airflow is much more turbulent and creating a vacuum instead of pressure.

I also agree that the Ninja's airbox isn't an advanced design tuned for resonance, but it does provide a smoother flow into the carb inlets than pods do. Drilling holes in the back of the box, as recommended by Leo Vince, sounds like a good solution. The sides of the airbox would shield the intake flow from most of the turbulent air rushing by at speed (and creating a vacuum) and also shield it from heat coming off of the engine.

Last futzed with by jkv45; July 13th, 2015 at 08:27 AM. Reason: typo
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Old July 13th, 2015, 04:11 PM   #19
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I mean, most dyno's use some really big fans. Like giant fans. So I still see them as valid data, but you are right.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 04:17 PM   #20
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We gotta start getting some 3rd, 4th and 5th gear rolls against a bike like mine and someone with exhaust and stock air box. When you pull a car length on me I'll pull the pods off. Until then they make working on the bike exponentially easier.
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Old July 13th, 2015, 04:26 PM   #21
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All the below statements are assuming the carburetors are properly serviced in the first place, and comes from my many years and personal experiences.

Carburetor tuning is a craft, that takes time, patience, proper tools, equipment, and a lot of experience.

If you don't have an exhaust gas analyzer, then your just taking the best guess you can so-to speak, and tuning for drivablily, feel, mpg, etc.... But fortunately being there are only so many possible combinations and the Ninjette community is so vast, that the most common setups can be found.




Quote:
Your initial setting should be 3 full turns out from the bottom, remember just slightly tighten them, don't go all Conan on them.



Then warm it up, slowly turn 1 side pilot screw in until the rpms drop, then back out till RPM's peak (and no further)* Twist throttle...see how it reacts...tweak to taste.
Repeat on other side... test ride. You're looking for best throttle response and transition from just cracked to 1/4 throttle opening or so.*

Thats a quickie, 10 cent tutorial on setting pilot screws.**
Quote:
I would highly recommend that you DO NOT REMOVE THE AIR BOX, the carburetors on the bike are CV type and need to box to function properly, buy a K&N that fits the OEM airbox(K&N KA-2508 Kawasaki High Performance Replacement Air Filter by K&N Amazon.com: K&N KA-2508 Kawasaki High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive Amazon.com: K&N KA-2508 Kawasaki High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive ) that's the short version.

Long boring but important answer, CV carbs stands for "constant velocity". The function of the carbs is dependent on having a calm reservoir (airbox) from which to intake air at said constant velocity. Pods draw from the turbulent, unpredictable air swirling past them as you ride, which is anything but constant. Other carbs work fine with pods. CV's = no bueno, save yourself the headaches.

Now onto jetting, first you need to tune the idle mixture screws first, I recommend 3 full turns out from bottom as a good starting point, then fine tune them afterwards. As far as buying a jet kit, I personally don't have one on either my 250, or 500 ninjas. I did got up one size on my main jets, due to they are lean from the factory, and shimmed the main needles with a small washer.
Quote:
You can sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.
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Old July 22nd, 2015, 03:56 AM   #22
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a wing and a prayer

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If you don't have an exhaust gas analyzer, then your just taking the best guess you can so-to speak, and tuning for drivablily, feel, mpg, etc.... But fortunately being there are only so many possible combinations and the Ninjette community is so vast, that the most common setups can be found.
aside from all the engineering data supplied I think Ghosts post was as accurate as can be.

Short of having a gas analyzer you have to take great notes, have a good knowledge of what does what and a good feel for how the bike runs.
I am assuming that the mechanical state of the motor is good..IE good compression, valves adjusted properly etc.

This is time consuming but interesting and fun. Wardie
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Old July 22nd, 2015, 07:20 AM   #23
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These bikes are higher RPM machines. That RPM seems awful low to worry about boging or a flat spot. Just my 2 cents
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Old July 22nd, 2015, 03:33 PM   #24
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^ yeah, but that's a common RPM to find yourself at when tooling around a parking lot or slowly crossing railroad tracks or making a cautious turn through a neighborhood. When that falls flat on it's face, that's really annoying.

FWIW: lowering the floats helps in this situation.
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Old July 24th, 2015, 07:33 PM   #25
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^ yeah, but that's a common RPM to find yourself at when tooling around a parking lot or slowly crossing railroad tracks or making a cautious turn through a neighborhood. When that falls flat on it's face, that's really annoying.

FWIW: lowering the floats helps in this situation.
Yeah, the bike is great on the track but tooling around town it does get annoying.

I've lowered the floats 1mm with little effect, I'll go down 1 more and then see what happens.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 07:53 AM   #26
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Have you compared the stock needles to the dynojet needles?

Try putting the stock needles back in and see what the results are.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 09:01 AM   #27
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Have you compared the stock needles to the dynojet needles?

Try putting the stock needles back in and see what the results are.
That's what I'm going to do next.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:48 AM   #28
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Stock needles make it worse.

Anybody want to buy a Ninja 250? Runs great above 2500 rpm!
Need to sell for something fuel injected.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 01:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
Stock needles make it worse.

Anybody want to buy a Ninja 250? Runs great above 2500 rpm!
Need to sell for something fuel injected.
$100,and I'll force myself to take it off your hands.

But seriously did you tune the idle mixture screws?
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:16 PM   #30
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$100,and I'll force myself to take it off your hands.

But seriously did you tune the idle mixture screws?
You mean after I put the stock needles back in? If so, no.
But previously, yes.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 02:35 PM   #31
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Hmmmm... I got mine to work out with a very similar setup to yours, it IS possible. Don't lose hope! That said, the Ninja 300 is a slick machine. The gear box is smoooooooth and the fueling is really nice (the model I rode had a Area P quiet core 18" system and fuel controller with their mapping) and responsive. Power up top is good and mid range is definitely more useful than the 250. Much want. The R3 also looks promising in the little bike category.

What I have:
K&N R-0990 with newgen intake runners, full Muzzy exhaust system with 18" can.
Jetting: 110 mains, 3 washers on the needles, 18mm float height, 40 pilots, 2.75 turns on mix screws. I can bum down to 2000 rpm in 2nd and snap open the throttle or roll on slowly and it never bogs leaves me hanging. It's not exactly torquey down there, but it doesn't feel unresponsive.


Is your 2500 rpm issue more of a problem when engine is fully hot or when you're leaving the driveway for the first time? Does it get better in the evening when it cools down a little bit?
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Old July 26th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
Stock needles make it worse.

Anybody want to buy a Ninja 250? Runs great above 2500 rpm!
Need to sell for something fuel injected.
OK - that's a start. Are the Dynojet needles thinner and more tapered (richer) than the original ones?

I assume you have already gone back to the Dynojet needles.

So, as you let the clutch out and begin to open the throttle, does it pull cleanly and smoothly for a time, then stumble as it hits 2500? When it does begin to stumble, what amount of throttle opening are you at? Does the engine speed ever hang-up when you open the throttle and close it quickly? Could you have a vacuum leak?

If you use RPMs to adjust the idle mixture, I like to get the highest RPM - then go 1/8 to 1/4 richer. For the Ninja, richer is "out". If you're in the 2 to 3 turn out range, I would say the Pilot Jet is correct.

With that pretty close, and with your experience with the needle, I would look at the Main Jet. I would go with basic jetting numbers for your set-up - but ditch the Dynojet jets and go with OEMs.

If the Dynojet needles are richer, and they are better than the originals, I would say the Main Jet that is it in it now is too lean. You can also add some choke (enrichener) when the engine is hot (and stumbling) to see if the added fuel make the condition better or worse.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 07:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
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OK - that's a start. Are the Dynojet needles thinner and more tapered (richer) than the original ones?

I assume you have already gone back to the Dynojet needles.

So, as you let the clutch out and begin to open the throttle, does it pull cleanly and smoothly for a time, then stumble as it hits 2500? When it does begin to stumble, what amount of throttle opening are you at? Does the engine speed ever hang-up when you open the throttle and close it quickly? Could you have a vacuum leak?

If you use RPMs to adjust the idle mixture, I like to get the highest RPM - then go 1/8 to 1/4 richer. For the Ninja, richer is "out". If you're in the 2 to 3 turn out range, I would say the Pilot Jet is correct.

With that pretty close, and with your experience with the needle, I would look at the Main Jet. I would go with basic jetting numbers for your set-up - but ditch the Dynojet jets and go with OEMs.

If the Dynojet needles are richer, and they are better than the originals, I would say the Main Jet that is it in it now is too lean. You can also add some choke (enrichener) when the engine is hot (and stumbling) to see if the added fuel make the condition better or worse.
The dynojet needles are thicker and less tapered.

I have the idle set at 1500. As the rpms hit 2000 it bogs and clears at 2500which is about 1/4 throttle. If you open the throttle quickly it bogs and won't recover. Open is slowly and it clears and takes of like a rocket at 3000.

If there is a vacume leak I can't find it. I think the idle mixture and pilot jet is correct because I adjusted it like you say.

I have a dynojet 112 main in it right now with the clip in the 4th groove, which is what dynojet recommends for this setup. I've considered going bigger but 112 is the biggest I have right now.

It doesn't seem to matter if the engine is hot or cold.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #34
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Did you check the enrichment diaphragm? And make sure it works?,
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Old July 26th, 2015, 09:40 PM   #35
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Diaphragm looked good and I'm not getting any popping on decal so I'm thinking it's good.
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Old July 26th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #36
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If you're not getting massive decel piping and really weird idle issues, I wouldn't worry about vacuum leaks because you're good.

Scott, do you mean the slide diaphragms?
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Old July 27th, 2015, 06:44 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higear223 View Post
The dynojet needles are thicker and less tapered.

I have the idle set at 1500. As the rpms hit 2000 it bogs and clears at 2500which is about 1/4 throttle. If you open the throttle quickly it bogs and won't recover. Open is slowly and it clears and takes of like a rocket at 3000.
That would mean they (Dynojet needles) give overall leaner metering (if they are the same length as stock), and because they were better than the original ones, would mean you are still getting too much fuel at mid-throttle.

As others noted, it may be an issue with one of the carb diaphragms, or air passages that operate the diaphragms. You may need to remove them and inspect them closely.

Take the air filters off and lift the slides manually (engine off) to see if they rise and fall smoothly. If that's ok, start it up and watch them as you open the throttle to see if they move together.

Look over this section - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Intake and confirm that everything is correct. There have been instances where the carb was not assembled correctly but it still ran. Any chance the "collar" (http://faq.ninja250.org/images/e/eb/Jim_carb_2.jpg) was not inserted properly from the bottom before screwing in the "holder"?
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Old July 27th, 2015, 04:57 PM   #38
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My slides are fluttering. A video is worth a thousand words.

The video is 90 degrees out but you get the idea.

In case you can't view the video, the slides are fluttering at the troublesome rpm and fuel is being sprayed out of the carbs.
So WTH is happening here?
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:00 AM   #39
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Not sure exactly what's going on there, but I would say it's time to pull the carbs and go through them again. Double check that all the passages are fully open, adjustments are set, and everything is assembled correctly.

I personally would remove all of the Dynojet parts, and do some research into a good baseline for your intake/exhaust set-up using oem parts.
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Old August 5th, 2015, 05:55 PM   #40
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I had a thought on this. Let me explain. Yesterday, I noticed that at 9000 or so with a medium throttle opening and gradually accelerating, I experienced some light surge. I experimented with raising my needles again and now am at 4 washers on stock needles. Mid range feels good, top end at wot still pulls well, so I'm happy with the main jet. However, my little bog is back, right at 2000 rpm when you give it some gas. :/

I got to thinking. The needle fueling is good; smooth and responsive. But it seems like maybe the slide is raising too quickly when you give it gas down low and that's giving the soggy feeling. Your experiences back this thought, since you mentioned slide flutter.

Now I thought about the slide springs. The rate and slide lift feels great in mid range and up top, so I doubt the spring rate is too stiff or too soft, but it seems to be lifting too easily. Why not use a washer between the cap and spring to preload the diaphragm spring???? That would make the needle and slide not lift as quickly, hopefully not swamping it at 2000-2500 when you give it throte, but it wouldn't change the spring rate and potentially mess up the mid range response and quick revving nature when in higher rpm ranges because as we know from suspension, preload does not change the rate, just the amount of force required to initially move.
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