newgen or EX500 17" front wheel in Pregen front forks

[Yamahawk]

I have searched the forum, and cannot find a definitive answer as to whether the 17" front wheel from either a newgen EX250R or a EX500 (both 17")will fit with the Pregen forks? I was thinking of transplanting the front end off of a Newgen 08-12 EX250, but then I figure, if the 88-07 front forks will accept a Newgen front wheel, it may be a little cheaper. My current 86 EX250 front forks are totally different, as the rotor and speedo drive are both on the left, but the 88-07 are on opposite sides, rotor on the right, and speedo on the left. So, I don't think I can mate my forks with the 17" wheels, as they are different in that respect... Now, I have looked at the 88-07 forks and wheels, and they do have the rotor on the right, and speedo on left, as do the Newgen 17" wheels, and all the EX500 17" wheels, which are able to mount up on other front end from the Newgen or EX500R 94-09.
So, has anyone mounted a 17" wheel from a Newgen onto the Pregen front forks, 88-07?
Thanks!

[Somchai]

There are some guys who already did this mod when I remember well.
Please let me remind you about the forks, the 86 has a 35 mm diameter, while the 87 - 07 has 36 mm and the newgen has 37 mm in diameter.

[Ghostt]

If I remember correctly, you'll need the entire fork assembly including the triple triple tree.

If you don't mind me asking, why the change?

[Yamahawk]

Thanks Somchai and Ghostt! I am going to build a race bike, and need to have 17" wheels. If the pregen forks will accept the 17"wheel, I will get those and build them up for racing. I can adapt calipers, etc if I need to, and yeah, I know the original forks and triples are 35mm, The lower triple is very poor, and bends easily. I would like the better and stronger forks and triples from the later pregen or newgen. I didn't want to get the forks and then find out the wheel wouldn't fit. I am going to use a 2009 EX500 front wheel to match the rear, and that's why need to swap forks and triple trees. I will follow Timm's adventure closely to see if the CBR600 F3 cartridges can be adapted to the lower legs of the Ninja forks also!
My friends Pat and Mike both own cycle salvages and if Mike has a newgen front end, I will get one from him. If not, it will be a pregen for sure. They are way cheaper than the newgens also...

[Kestrel]

I'm about to embark on a similar mission myself.

It HAS been done. CZRoe purchased a bike from Jiggyfly, which already had an '08+ front wheel on it. See this post:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...3&postcount=34

From what I understand, since both axels are 15mm, you need to fabricate new spacers along with a bracket to extend the brake caliper outward on the rotor. Perhaps CZRoe still has the bike and can comment? Or take pictures of the caliper bracket? Measurements of the new wheel spacers and a picture of the bracket would be all I'd need, honestly.

*IF* the caliper doesn't need to be offset along the axis of the axle, then it's simple to make a simple bracket that'll account for the larger diameter rotor. If you DO need to space the caliper more into the wheel or away from the wheel, it becomes quite a bit more labor intensive.

@CZroe?

[Kestrel]

Dug up some more information in an old thread from CZRoe.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122712

Mounting the '08+ wheel required a spacer that replaces the meter gear (speed sender) on the left and a custom-made brake bracket on the right. While I need the wheel and brake for whatever 37mm forks I get, I do not need the bracket and spacer.

Sounds like it's actually a pretty easy setup. If the offset depth of the rotor is already the same, then you indeed just need a new spacer on the speedo side, and a generic caliper extension bracket to account for the larger diameter brake rotor. Unfortunately the speedo is probably sacrificed in the process.

Is it possible that an EX500 or '08+ 250/300 speedo drive could be substituted instead? Are they more narrow than the older models? Perhaps the EX500 speedo drive with a modified spacer might do the trick, allowing for the speedo to be kept?

If anyone has a newgen / ex500 speedo drive on hand, along with a pregen drive, could you possibly measure the diameter of these pieces?

EDIT: Well, the part number is slightly different from Kawasaki, but I'm almost positive the EX500 and EX250 speedo drives are the exact same. (Same *price*, same visual appearance, etc...) Anyway, if anyone has the total width of the front wheels of the new and old bikes, including spacers and speedo drive, that would settle it, and tell us where material would need to be removed.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I'm about to embark on a similar mission myself.

It HAS been done. CZRoe purchased a bike from Jiggyfly, which already had an '08+ front wheel on it. See this post:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...3&postcount=34

From what I understand, since both axels are 15mm, you need to fabricate new spacers along with a bracket to extend the brake caliper outward on the rotor. Perhaps CZRoe still has the bike and can comment? Or take pictures of the caliper bracket? Measurements of the new wheel spacers and a picture of the bracket would be all I'd need, honestly.

*IF* the caliper doesn't need to be offset along the axis of the axle, then it's simple to make a simple bracket that'll account for the larger diameter rotor. If you DO need to space the caliper more into the wheel or away from the wheel, it becomes quite a bit more labor intensive.

@CZroe?

You rang? Oh:
I loaned out my calipers and haven't seen them in a while but I'll do what I can when I can take a look tomorrow.

[Yamahawk]

Thanks, Patrick and CZRoe! I have a 2009 EX500 front wheel, with all the spacers, speedo drive and axle. I will be getting a PreGen front end complete with triples, which will bolt on no problem, it will have the entire axle/spacers/speedo drive/caliper also. I believe that I will swap rotors with the current 16" wheel I have now, and that should alleviate the need for a caliper bracket to adapt to a larger rotor, although if braking performance is not adequate, I may pursue that avenue later. I will mix and match all the spacers and see if it is feasible to adapt the EX500 wheel that way, and if necessary, I have access to hundreds of not thousands of spacers at my friends cycle salvage. I hope the speedo drive will adapt to the spacing of the forks, it should be able to do so, as the front wheels are similarly designed. Only time will tell.I will not have the front end for a couple weeks, as they have to dig the donor bike out, it is the second big deep in his storage area, and then remove the front forks and see if they are usable. Meantime, my other friend may have a front end at his cycle salvage, as he parted out a 1996 a few years ago. Any info is appreciated very greatly. I will be starting a race build thread soon under Ninjettes at Speed!

Charlie

[Kestrel]

Please measure as much as you're able to. Prior posts say the speedometer is lost in the process, but I wonder how much extra space needs to be accounted for using the EX500 wheel. If it isn't that much wider, it may be possible to mill a little bit of material off of the outer face of the speedo drive. The notches which keep the speedo drive from spinning are fairly deep, so there may be room to play.

Found on another forum, with respect to Pre-Gen spacing...

"front fork distance:
i didn't take out the wheel to measure the gap in between the forks, but I did it the other way around,
wheel width = 101 mm
spacer = 26 mm (already taken out the part where it recess into the wheel)
speedo hub = 30 mm

so, roughly, it is 157mm."

EX500 spacing or new-gen spacing would be great, if anyone has that data on hand.

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Please measure as much as you're able to. Prior posts say the speedometer is lost in the process, but I wonder how much extra space needs to be accounted for using the EX500 wheel. If it isn't that much wider, it may be possible to mill a little bit of material off of the outer face of the speedo drive. The notches which keep the speedo drive from spinning are fairly deep, so there may be room to play.

Found on another forum, with respect to Pre-Gen spacing...



EX500 spacing or new-gen spacing would be great, if anyone has that data on hand.

If this spacing is accurate, then it will work, as my EX500 wheel, spacer and speedo all installed on the wheel, measures 151mm. Now the only variable may be if the Pregen measurements were taken where the spacer seats into the bearing recess or not. There is about 5mm of recess usually on a wheel spacer, and not sure if this fellow may have taken the wheel measurement from the outside of the bearing recess, or the inside (which would make it correct). I will chance using the Pregen forks, mainly that it would be legal by WERA rules, etc as it is a Pregen EX250. It would need at the most, 6mm of spacer on the speedo side! I am excited now!
If anyone can corroborate the 157mm fork measurement, inside the two fork legs of a set of Pregen forks, that would make it absolutely able to do!! This measurement would be taken where the axle is inserted through the fork legs, also just to be clear. Thanks again for the info!!
Charlie

[Kestrel]

Spacing may not be totally accurate. I just measured the front wheel on my '02 250, from the outer edge of the speedo drive (where it touches the fork leg) to the contact point between the wheel spacer and the axle/fork bushing/spacer which is inside the fork leg. (Does that make sense?)

That distance was pretty close to 6 inches, or 152.4mm. (Couldn't find my metric scale, so I just grabbed the nearest measuring tape.) While the fork diameters are different (36mm vs 37mm), I don't know if Kawasaki modified the upper / lower triples to change the width between the lower fork stanchions.

[Yamahawk]

My EX500 wheel is just under 6" or 5 15/16" actually, so it is still under the actual id of the Pregen fork tubes! I believe that should work. It would be within 1mm or so narrower than the fork internal measurement. What say you, is that close enough? If the caliper and rotor line up it would be a bolt in almost, with minor shimming. If the rotor doesn't align with the caliper, then a bracket would be the next step.
As far as 36 vs 37mm, that is the pregen and newgen fork tube diameters, and if you use the newgen, it is a bolt in for the EX500 wheel or the newgen wheel, as they are almost identical in their relationship to the forks of the newgen. However, if you have pregen forks, then the spacing would seem to be about the same also!

[Ghostt]

@Yamahawk

Any luck from you post over at EX-500.com?

[Yamahawk]

Nothing definitive yet, Ghostt! I think that it will be a physics experiment... physically get the forks, and then see if the wheel fits lol...
I do know that I can use either the 08-13 EX250, or EX300, I believe also, and the 94-09 EX500 forks. These are a sure thing, with the 17" EX500 wheel assembly. The questionable area is the 88-07 EX250 forks. I think it will take an actual fitment to see what the requirements are.

[Yamahawk]

I just saw a set of pregen forks on eBay and the fellow had posted pictures with a tape measure of length and width, and the measurement between the inner axle area was 6" or a tad over, but definitely at least 6"! So, i am thinking there is room for the EX500 wheel. The Ex500 wheel, speedo drive and right hand spacer should fit in the forks no problem. As far as the caliper to rotor orientation would be the only unknown.

[Yamahawk]

Ok! I picked up a clean set of 1995 EX250 front forks today, didn't have time to look for the axle, caliper, fender, etc. and the EX500 axle is too short/wrong configuration to go through both sides, but here are some pics of the EX500 wheel, speedo drive, and spacer in the pregen fork. As you can see, the fork notch interferes with the EX500 speedo drive, but that can be 'fixed' by either grinding the notch back towards the fork, or by using another speedo drive, or by grinding relief into the speedo drive housing, to make a 'tab' for the 'notch'.
On the rotor side, there is also clearance, and I will not know how to deal with the gap in both sides, until I get a caliper to bolt on the right fork. I will look for the axle, caliper, etc. tomorrow, or by the weekend if I have time.

[csmith12]

Do work Charlie! Thanks for adding value here.

See ya soon.

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Do work Charlie! Thanks for adding value here.

See ya soon.

Thanks, Chris! I hope to be of some help hehe... give a little, get a little.. you know...

[InvisiBill]

I'm not sure how similar the PreGen and NewGen forks/wheels are, but the Gen2 500 is nearly identical to the NewGen. willi777's OP and my post have a decent bit of detail about swapping the aftermarket NewGen wheels into the Gen2. Like I said, I'm not sure how much that helps with PreGen forks though.

http://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/ can tell you the dimensions of some of the spacers and stuff, which might help at least a little too.

[Yamahawk]

Thanks Bill, I had seen the other post but not yours. I have the pregen forks and hope to pick up the axle and spacers/speedo drive today, if possible. I have a lot of therapy... er, bike building to do this winter! Got the 06 GSXR600 shock yesterday, and am swapping the spring from an 03 GSXR shock onto it. Looking at the stock shock and its markedly smaller spring, I hope it fits without binding in the swingarm hehe...
Once I get the front wheel installed properly in the Pregen forks, I will post a complete how-to here.
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Feeling like crap today, and coughing my fool head off!
But I did get out in the workshop, and had some therapy... I removed the stock 35mm forks from the '86, and installed the 36mm '95 forks! After that, I removed the EX250 rotor from the front wheel, and installed it onto the '09 EX500 front wheel. Then, using the OEM '86 axle, right wheel spacer, and speedo drive, I bolted it right up, with NO PROBLEM! Hoooowever.... the wheel is not exactly spaced between the front forks, with it being 1/8" shifted toward the right fork leg. I have to wait until I receive my EX250 front caliper, to actually fit it and see if the rotor will be centered into the caliper opening... if not, a simple shift to the left, should take care of it. I may have to mill off 1/16" from the speedo face, an add 1/16" to the spacer side to get the rotor where it should be. Other than that, here are some pics of the wheel in the forks!

[Yamahawk]

It seems that the speedo drive was not installed correctly, as it was not seated into the hub. I guess I was not paying attention when I put it in yesterday, and that's a good thing! Now today I reseated it into the hub, and there is clearance on the rotor side, which i believe will help center it into the caliper. I still have to wait to receive the caliper, and i think a washer or a slightly longer spacer (I have two) will make it fit well. It will work, and work well!

[Kestrel]

Awesome news! Document it all, and keep us posted.

[sharky nrk]

Great job, keep it up

[Yamahawk]

The caliper should be delivered today, and perhaps by the weekend I will be able to fit it and see how the wheel and rotor line up with it. I am using the stock rotor off of the 1986 16" wheel, which is 260mm. I will try it out for effectiveness, and if I need more braking, will fit the 09 EX500 rotor and make an adaptor bracket.
The 17" front is a reality on Pregen forks!

[Kestrel]

Little bump. Was browsing the WERA forums, and stumbled upon this gem of a thread...

http://forums.13x.com/index.php?thre...-folks.302594/

Here's my front wheel set up. Post 1995 EX500 wheels. I used the JeffroJ rear caliper set up, worked perfectly with all spacers. Bolt it on and go. Front was a bit tougher. I am too cheap to buy something that may or may not work, so I cobbled something together out of 1/4" steel plate and aluminum rod (caliper spacers and wheel spacers). I don't have the measurements nor do I have the bike, but it wasn't that tough if you own accurate measuring equipment and a lathe and drill press. I simply spaced the wheel to suit, then made a bracket for the front caliper. I had to eliminate the speedo drive/spacer, but that is pretty typical when fitting wrong wheels to a bike. the bolts with the head on the wheel side are pretty close to the rotor, but they fit.

[Yamahawk]

OK, got the stock Pregen caliper set up, and it will not fit with the EX500 wheel, even with the 260mm rotor from the Pregen. I will end up using the EX500 rotor, which is 280mm, and making a bracket like the picture above, and that should make it work. I have the wheel installed with the Pregen speedo drive, and spacer, and a thin washer on the right side to take up the slack. Other than the adaptor plate for the caliper, it will bolt on, no problem... at least, none yet lol.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

OK, got the stock Pregen caliper set up, and it will not fit with the EX500 wheel, even with the 260mm rotor from the Pregen. I will end up using the EX500 rotor, which is 280mm, and making a bracket like the picture above, and that should make it work.

Can you explain a little more of why this won't fit? Given that you have the pre-gen rotor on the EX500 wheel, is it that there is a mismatch in the offset of the caliper vs the rotor?

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Can you explain a little more of why this won't fit? Given that you have the pre-gen rotor on the EX500 wheel, is it that there is a mismatch in the offset of the caliper vs the rotor?

Exactly! The EX500 2nd gen wheel is too close to the caliper with the rotor mounted, so it must be wider through the area where the rotor mounts. It isn't much, but the tabs where the inner brake pad are, rub the rotor. That would make it about 3/16" or so too close. That will be about what an adaptor plate will offset the caliper out to clear the rotor, and as a plus, It will allow the mounting of the EX500 rotor, which is 20mm larger in diameter. That will give improved braking performance also. Now the wheel is pretty well centered, between the forks now, and not saying that you couldn't offset the wheel slightly to the left by machining a little off the speedo drive to shift the wheel enough to clear the caliper, but I like things well centered, and I will make sure of that before I make any adaptor plate for the caliper.

[Kestrel]

Ever get this thing mounted? Curious if you were able to keep the speedo.

[UFOmoplata]

So to summarize, I need a newgen:

-wheel
-rotor
-caliper
-line
-pads
-axel
-spacer fabricated

?

I may do this swap, too.

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Ever get this thing mounted? Curious if you were able to keep the speedo.

I was able to keep the 1986 speedo drive. The EX500 drive is a bit different, that is why I used the 86 EX250 drive. I also used the EX250 spacer on the rotor (right) side, and shimmed it with a washer between the spacer and the fork. You could take the stock EX500 spacer on a lathe and remove about 3/16" or so, (not a measurement, check what you need) or if you are good with a grinder, cut it off and use it. Any way you can get the correct distance with the wheel centered will work. As for the caliper bracket, I may try to bolt the plate on the inside of the mounts, drilling and tapping the holes in the plate, and then mounting the caliper to it. This should space the caliper out the thickness of the caliper bracket, which should give correct clearance. Another option, would be to use the EX250 rotor, and machine off the inside of the fork mounting area where the caliper bolts to, this would give a stock appearance, with no adaptor plate needed. precise machining is necessary here! You do not want the caliper cocked or skewed from the rotor. It would only be about 1/8" to 3/16" amount of material needed for removal.

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by UFOmoplata

So to summarize, I need a newgen:

-wheel
-rotor
-caliper
-line
-pads
-axel
-spacer fabricated

?

I may do this swap, too.

You need those things, your stock EX250 axle and caliper can be used, along with stock pads, line, etc. Your speedo drive should be useable also. I cannot attest to the newgen wheel, but it should be the same as the EX500 94-09 wheel's spacing. You would have to try it yourself to see. The EX500 wheels are pretty easy to find, and a lot cheaper than the newgen EX250J wheels, too. The rear is easy to adapt, just weld a tab on the swing arm at the correct spot, aligning the slot in the EX500 caliper bracket with it. You also use the EX250 spacer on the chain side. The front wheel is a little bit more, with the adaptor bracket needed for the caliper, or machining the caliper mounting tabs on the inside for precise caliper location on your stock rotor.

[UFOmoplata]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

You need those things, your stock EX250 axle and caliper can be used, along with stock pads, line, etc. Your speedo drive should be useable also. I cannot attest to the newgen wheel, but it should be the same as the EX500 94-09 wheel's spacing. You would have to try it yourself to see. The EX500 wheels are pretty easy to find, and a lot cheaper than the newgen EX250J wheels, too. The rear is easy to adapt, just weld a tab on the swing arm at the correct spot, aligning the slot in the EX500 caliper bracket with it. You also use the EX250 spacer on the chain side. The front wheel is a little bit more, with the adaptor bracket needed for the caliper, or machining the caliper mounting tabs on the inside for precise caliper location on your stock rotor.

Thanks for the info.

I said 250J because I have a newgen parts bike. In my context, I may just swap the entire front end minus the forks.

[Yamahawk]

If the forks are still straight on the newgen, swap the entire thing, triple trees and all. That is the simplest and best way, as you will have no adapting at all. I do not know whether you race or are planning to race, but check out whether it is acceptable to do so with the newgen front forks, it should be ok.

[UFOmoplata]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

If the forks are still straight on the newgen, swap the entire thing, triple trees and all. That is the simplest and best way, as you will have no adapting at all. I do not know whether you race or are planning to race, but check out whether it is acceptable to do so with the newgen front forks, it should be ok.

I wish it were that easy as I've already got the 36mm clip ons.

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by UFOmoplata

I wish it were that easy as I've already got the 36mm clip ons.

It's not too much to get 37mm clip on bars, they are under $50 on eBay! Then just sell the 36mm ones to someone here
I have a set that are the raised instead of straight off the clamp, I may switch them to the straight, no riser types.

[UFOmoplata]

Has anyone tried sticking a pregen rotor on newgen wheel?

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by UFOmoplata

Has anyone tried sticking a pregen rotor on newgen wheel?

Well, I have installed an 86 EX250E1 rotor, which is as PreGen as you can get, onto an 09 EX500 NewGen front wheel, and it fit well. Now, I would hazard to guess that the 08-12 EX250J front wheel would also fit the PreGen rotor, but I have not done it myself.

[UFOmoplata]

The only problem so far is the caliper. Three options: swap the forks (too lazy), make bracket for newgen caliper or bracket for pregen caliper, or swap the rotors out. I'm going with swapping the rotors unless there's s bracket out there somewhere.

http://imgur.com/aHRlNm5