turbo / turbocharger / turbocharging

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Houston, we have a turbo: KP35 $228.83

Motivation:

• airflow/boost combinations run right through the middle of the map
• approximately the same specs as the GT1241, which has been the turbo of choice for someone to successfully turbo a 250r (link with details)
• what the heck, it's only money

[Lowspeed Lowside]

VENOM HP-632-4, High Flow, Maximum Performance, 32 LB/HR Flow Rate, Fuel Injector Set of 4: $102.12 incl. Tax



Corner case[*]: 100hp running Methanol

Methanol has approximately 45% the energy density (by volume) of gasoline. Typical fuel requirement for gasoline engines is 0.5lbs/hp/hour, which means we'll need approximately 1.1lbs/hp/hour running methanol, so we get 1.1lbs/hp/hour*100hp/(4*32lbs/hr) ~ 85% duty cycle for each of the four injectors.

The 0.5lbs/hp/hour figure is probably too low for a turbocharged engine. On the other hand, if the setup is only needs to survive 15 seconds one could try to compensate by running higher fuel pressure.
[*]The point of this exercise is to determine whether the specs are way too low or way too high.

[rusninja]

who needs a 600 when you can make a 250 go woooosh! x]

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Python Injection, Inc. 745-204 Precision Remanufactured OEM Fuel Pump: $17.36 incl. Tax

According to the vehicle list it supplies enough fuel for a 1993 Cadillac DeVille with a 4.9L, 150KW engine, which is insufficient for the methanol/100HP corner case, but they were so cheap that I ordered two. If we end up installing two pumps for redundancy, increased fuel supply, or whatever other reasons, $17.36 need to be added to the expenses.

Originally Posted by rusninja

who needs a 600 when you can make a 250 go woooosh! x]

Someone who can't handle the big 'boooom' after 440 yards of going 'woooosh'?

[Racer x]

I like methanol. I have a nitrous methanol system. I will use when I am sure about the clutch. To be safe I run ablut 6 to 1 af ratio on methanol about double the gasoline to air ratio.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I like methanol. I have a nitrous methanol system. I will use when I am sure about the clutch. To be safe I run ablut 6 to 1 af ratio on methanol about double the gasoline to air ratio.

I want to run a high quality ethanol/water mixture which at $80 per gallon must be the best. race. gas. evar: Link

[Racer x]

This is what I have .About 10 dollars a gallon. About the same as the 115 Octane fuel I run at the track,

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

This is what I have .About 10 dollars a gallon. About the same as the 115 Octane fuel I run at the track,

Devil's Springs 160 Proof Vodka (750ml) race gas, 108 Octane, ~$80 a gallon. Instructions: fill rider with 40ml of a 50:50 race-gas/orange-juice mix, fill tank with 100ml of a 10000:1 race-gas/jasmine-oil mix and wait for the green light. It's fast, feels good and smells good - unbeatable by the cheap stuff you're using.

[zilaniz]

Not to flame anyone but what is te point of putting a turbo kit on a 250? If you want more power, just get a 600cc or greater bike, it will be a million times more reliable and a more manageable power curve. You should have to lower and strech the 250, or else it would just wheelie everytime you hit boost. I really dont see the point, unless just to have something different.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by zilaniz

You should have to lower and strech the 250, or else it would just wheelie everytime you hit boost. I really dont see the point, unless just to have something different.

Really?

Traction control is probably less than $5 in parts. We can check for a discrepancy in speed between front and rear wheel, attach a potentiometer to the front fork, or whatever else we can come up with. Not to mention that practically all tablets include 3D gravity sensors, which means that it's not that unreasonable to assume that traction control can be done entirely in software.

Originally Posted by zilaniz

Not to flame anyone but what is te point of putting a turbo kit on a 250? If you want more power, just get a 600cc or greater bike, it will be a million times more reliable and a more manageable power curve.

A Bugatti Veyron has four wheels, is therefore more reliable, and with over 1000hp it outperforms our cheap made-in-Thailand scooter motorcycle by a million to one, so not to flame you but what is te point of your post?

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by zilaniz

Not to flame anyone but what is te point of putting a turbo kit on a 250? If you want more power, just get a 600cc or greater bike, it will be a million times more reliable and a more manageable power curve. You should have to lower and strech the 250, or else it would just wheelie everytime you hit boost. I really dont see the point, unless just to have something different.

I am trying to set a landspeed record at Bonniville. the speed is 137mph I will need a turbo for that.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I am trying to set a landspeed record at Bonniville. the speed is 137mph I will need a turbo for that.

Rolling resistance is linear, air resistance is quadratic, so if we're trying to go for maximum top speed it's more logical to prefer components that minimize drag (at constant power) over components that maximize power (at constant drag). Judging from the pictures you posted, I think you'd be better off choosing coolers/radiators that have a smaller frontal area and a longer core.

I had to re-install a long bolt that secures the engine yesterday (the previous owner had frame slider installed and the responsible mechanic had replaced it with two bolts and threaded sleeves, but he had stripped the threads on one and it had rattled loose), so I had the opportunity to take a firsthand look and ponder optimal turbo placement. Unfortunately, I think the possibly best spot would place the air intake exactly where the stock radiator is located, which means that the radiator would need go somewhere else.

I've done more research on cooling theory and I was dead wrong about connecting coolers in series, so we're definitely going to use only one intercooler which will not only lower cost but will also simplify plumbing. If we get two coolers of equal dimensions (one intercooler, one radiator) we could mount them on both sides of the bike, which would allow unrestricted airflow and therefore maximize cooling power. Unsurprisingly, the !@#$%^&* fairings would be in the way again and have therefore manifested themselves as a real pain in the neck.

[zilaniz]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

A Bugatti Veyron has four wheels, is therefore more reliable, and with over 1000hp it outperforms our cheap made-in-Thailand scooter motorcycle by a million to one, so not to flame you but what is te point of your post?

What does having four wheels have to do with reliability?
Second, the Veyron engineers designed the engine to be boosted from the get go. The 250r was never designed with turbocharging in mind, thus my reliabilty comment. Plus there was a lot more R&D that went into designing the Veyron engine, then what you are able to do with the 250r.

My point of my post was to try to understand the purpose of adding a turbo to the 250r, the only reason I can see is to be unique, it really has limited performance capabilities...it was not intended for high speeds to begin with.
But whatever floats your boat.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

Rolling resistance is linear, air resistance is quadratic, so if we're trying to go for maximum top speed it's more logical to prefer components that minimize drag (at constant power) over components that maximize power (at constant drag). Judging from the pictures you posted, I think you'd be better off choosing coolers/radiators that have a smaller frontal area and a longer core.

I had to re-install a long bolt that secures the engine yesterday (the previous owner had frame slider installed and the responsible mechanic had replaced it with two bolts and threaded sleeves, but he had stripped the threads on one and it had rattled loose), so I had the opportunity to take a firsthand look and ponder optimal turbo placement. Unfortunately, I think the possibly best spot would place the air intake exactly where the stock radiator is located, which means that the radiator would need go somewhere else.

I've done more research on cooling theory and I was dead wrong about connecting coolers in series, so we're definitely going to use only one intercooler which will not only lower cost but will also simplify plumbing.

You don't want two intercoolers .The space available is limited.and the pumping loss would kill you.

Zilanzi.... I understand your point. There is minimal point to turbocharging a 250 Ninja . But then why turbocharge anything? My friends all have turbo Hyabusas.They are OK but making a slow bike fast is a fun challenge .

As for cutting drag.I have a radiator that is 7inch by 10 and about 2 inch thick .It is much narrower than stock. But just for fun I am not using any aerodynamic fairings.

[zilaniz]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Zilanzi.... I understand your point. There is minimal point to turbocharging a 250 Ninja . But then why turbocharge anything? My friends all have turbo Hyabusas.They are OK but making a slow bike fast is a fun challenge .

I get what your saying, its just the ninja 250r is not the best platform for forced induction is what I am getting at. I am a fan of forced induction, my last three cars I have owned have been turbo charged

[Racer x]

I have installed turbos and nitrous on cars and motorcycles .This is by far the worst platform to begin with.It is a bike people buy to learn on . The only way I could make it worse is to turbo charge a Honda Rebel.
But the 250 Ninja is such a great bike . Why not do it? If nothing else it will be fun

Hans.... I think might want to let this thread DIE . It has been fun.But I think we are getting a bad reputation. I believe you are for real. But I think you should start a BLOG . and do a build diary.. It will allow you to document the build. If you are for real it will be good to start fresh. with out six pages of all us getten to know each other stuff.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I think might want to let this thread DIE . It has been fun.But I think we are getting a bad reputation. I believe you are for real. But I think you should start a BLOG . and do a build diary.. It will allow you to document the build. If you are for real it will be good to start fresh. with out six pages of all us getten to know each other stuff.

I think it's too early for that. I'm unsure about a lot of things and I find the feedback useful. Some of the very negative comments have - ironically - been the most helpful. For example, the more someone claims that an idea is crazy, because it appears crazy, the more one should look into it because it is something that nobody else is doing, and therefore has a greater chance of giving us an edge. A while back, some nitwit was LHFAO about someone using four injectors...but the rationale is pretty simple: if we can figure out a way to install one, we can install four. If we cannot figure out a way to install one, it doesn't matter whether we'd like to install two, four or fifty-seven.

Originally Posted by Racer x

You don't want two intercoolers .The space available is limited.and the pumping loss would kill you.

Not so sure about that, because that's only the case if we mount them inside the fairings and in series. If we put them outside, then there is lots of space, and if we connect them in parallel the pumping loss should only increase by the slightly larger surface of the piping, which should be small in comparison to the pressure drop in the intercooler(s), yet by attaching it(them) outside we will achieve better cooling by the higher ambient airflow. The decision is of course simplified if we end up modifying and using both stock throttle bodies: as we'll need 1-into-2 piping somewhere, we could just as well do it before the cooling as after.

And, of course my favorite reason: AFAIK, nobody else is using two parallel intercoolers, which means it obviously appears so bat-sh*t crazy that nobody even considers it, which means that we definitely should consider it! :-) Doesn't mean we will definitely use two coolers. If any at all. Long way to go.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Inner diameter of turbine outlet: 29mm
Inner diameter of compressor outlet: 31mm
Distance between compressor inlet and turbine inlet: 145mm
Weight: 4.0Kg

Using the dimensions of the stock exhaust system as a crude indicator, this turbo appears to be a good match and is definitely not too big.



Excuse the crappy photos, but it had just started to rain (the splash on the seat in the first pic isn't drool).

Originally Posted by Racer x

I am planning to try the RHB31 they are under 300 dollars.

I think my suspicion has been confirmed, that if you're trying to go for maximum power the RHB31 is probably be the wrong choice. For example, if the available map is accurate, compressor efficiency begins to drop above 12psi, and you might max out at about 50kw@crankshaft.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Just saw a book a friend has about British drag racing in the 60s-80s. There was an 8 second Honda 250 twin(Hawk) with forced induction, I believe turbocharged

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I canceled the order for the VENOM HP-632-4, High Flow, Maximum Performance, 32 LB/HR Flow Rate, Fuel Injector Set of 4: $102.12 incl. Tax

In turns out I pulled the trigger a little early on that one (again - sigh), because we can get four 950cc/min (~90lbs/hr) injectors for $30.51/piece. Not only would this save $40 (assuming that the order can be split among two, uh, enthusiasts), but using only two injectors simplifies everything a little. Of course we'll sacrifice e.g. easy 'water injection' but we can't have everything.

FREE SHIPPING!! High performance flow 950cc fuel injector for direct sale

For $30 extra we get a 255l/hr fuel pump thrown in:

ISO/TS16949! High Quality and 1PC OF High FLOW 255LPH FUEL PUMP + 4PCS OF 950cc fuel injector FOR SALE LIMITE TIMES

Also, there is no way I can fit the 10" tablet without it getting in the way of something (like the ignition key, if mounted on the steering). So, I'll be keeping my eyes open for a 7" tablet with a resistive screen[*]. However, I didn't realize how cheap LED-displays have become...for example $10 gets you twenty of these babies:



They come in all sorts of colors and sizes, so we might want to build a custom display after all. Although I actually want to avoid this, since on a tablet all display modding can be done in software.

A couple of other questions:

• What material is the stock exhaust made of?
• Can a turbo be installed vertically with the air intake pointing down?

The idea is to saw off the stock exhaust pipes about 1"-2" after the downward bend, swap left and right (so that the tips touch) and weld on a (custom) flange for our turbo. There is lots of room where the stock exhaust pipes are located.



[*]and a USB-port that doesn't require an adapter that sticks out two inches!

[saber63]

subscribed, and also so i can find this thread later, read it, then maybe help out some...

-Levi

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I'm assuming that the KP35 has metric connections, but according to the vendor the following will fit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=180582116782

Does it make sense to get two of these to construct the oil feed and drain? Or do we make our own as we'll need the tools for drilling holes and making threads anyway? I'm not at all sure about how construct the oil supply. According to the manual there is an oil plug to which we can attach an oil pressure gauge, so presumably we could feed our oil line from here...but where do we drain the oil? Camshaft? Oil pan?

If anybody has info on suppliers for small (for all practical purposes scrap) quantities of 'mild steel' sheets, straight and mandrel-bent tubes, please share. I think mild steel is our best option, not because of the rumor that we gain an extra 1-2kw, but because anybody can learn how to make serviceable welds within a day or two using a $90 (with 20%-off coupon in Sunday paper) arc welding kit. Ceramic coating for all parts should be less $20.



(courtesy of rmcdaniels at honda-tech.com)

Let the discussion begin why a $10 Chinese turbo on a $100 motorcycle absolutely must have a $1000 Inconel 625 exhaust system

Originally Posted by saber63

subscribed, and also so i can find this thread later, read it, then maybe help out some...

-Levi

Enjoy the ride!

[Racer x]

the oil feed line is OK . But you would want to use a larger return line.

Do you really think you can learn to weld in a day?Seriously?

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

the oil feed line is OK . But you would want to use a larger return line.

If the connectors actually fit, which I doubt. Bigger return line makes sense. First I got to find out which screws fit the threads.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Do you really think you can learn to weld in a day?Seriously?

How long did it take you?

Learning how to fuse two plain, clean, 3-inch long pieces of steel with known thickness and composition well enough together after consulting a vast database on which electrode and current to use, as well as disposing twenty-six scrapped parts and rubbing lotion on twenty-seven sunburns, will take me and everybody else who tries less than a day.

Learning how to overhead TIG-weld a 6-foot crack in a piece of artfully decorated cast metal of unknown composition in a live warzone during a hurricane in under a minute at the first attempt with my eyes closed will of course take a teeny-weeny bit longer.

[Racer x]

I have welded enough to make my own gas tank. It took me till lunch on the second day though .

[Liber]

I'm happy to see this thread is moving in an interesting direction. I'm still pretty clueless when it comes to the technical stuff, but I'm catching wind of something pretty cool.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I have welded enough to make my own gas tank. It took me till lunch on the second day though .

Then I don't understand your previous question. If you ground down the welds for a smooth finish afterwards, it didn't even matter how uneven your bead was. For all practical purposes everybody with average motor skills should be able to weld their own turbo header and exhaust system with no more than the usual amount of cursing that accompanies a DIY-project.

I found this useful:

Turbo Exhaust Theory

A back-of-envelope calculation tells us that our exhaust pipe diameter should be approximately 40mm, as a reminder, the diameter of the turbine outlet was 29mm, so a conical diffuser of 7° would need to be 90mm long to make up for the missing 11mm (divide 11 by the sine of 7° to get this value).

I'm tempted to completely ignore this advice and design the flange for a 40mm pipe unless cutting out several wedges and squeezing a 40mm pipe to 29mm or making a conical insert is really worth the effort.

This is interesting, too:

Exhaust Theory From: www.overboost.com

The turbine smooths out the exhaust pulses, so maybe we can get away with a really simple (holes, fiberglass, enclosure) muffler. Used exhaust systems are selling for $100-$200 on ebay, so we might as well consider selling it off to some poor soul willing to fork over that kind of dough.

Something like this might be within our budget:

Lawson Industries 45273 INSYNERATOR High Performance Turbo Tube Muffler: $29.32

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I only bought them because they were cheap. I've got to stop doing this.

2007 CBR600RR 600rr rr 600 throttle body: 29.95 shipped



Because of the limited supply of used parts this is cheating, but it would really be a shame to saw the throttles off Ninjette carburetors that are in perfect working condition, just to prove a point. The diameter of 38mm is large enough to fashion four individual throttles that have a 50% larger cross-sectional area than the compressor outlet yet a 20% smaller cross-sectional area than two 30mm throttles.

Ideas welcome.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I'll eventually need to order a spark plug for testing purposes when I wire the ignition circuit, so I might as well get two new plugs more suitable for our turbocharged engine.

@Racer X

Eric, you're using the CR9E because the stock CR8E melted during extreme conditions. Why did you prefer these over the CR10E and over the multi-ground CR9EK resp. CR10EK?

If we're going for maximum turbo power, we'll most likely want to delay ignition to create extra hot exhaust to spin the turbine wheel faster and create more boost (which explains the up to 30% higher fuel consumption per KW for turbocharged engines), which means that the plug will likely be exposed to more heat longer.

I think we might also want to reduce the gap a little as the higher pressure will make it harder to create a spark.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

I'll eventually need to order a spark plug for testing purposes when I wire the ignition circuit, so I might as well get two new plugs more suitable for our turbocharged engine.

@Racer X

Eric, you're using the CR9E because the stock CR8K melted during extreme conditions. Why did you prefer these over the CR10E and over the multi-ground CR9EK resp. CR10EK?

If we're going for maximum turbo power, we'll most likely want to delay ignition to create extra hot exhaust to spin the turbine wheel faster and create more boost (which explains the up to 30% higher fuel consumption per KW for turbocharged engines), which means that the plug will likely be exposed to more heat longer.

I think we might also want to reduce the gap a little as the higher pressure will make it harder to create a spark.

I was using the 9s and the only one that melted was the one that has a faulty injector.

Seems my injector was defective , I only had a 10 hp shot on the left side and an engine damaging dry shot on the right side. They assure me that will not happen again.
I will be using the CR10E plug and modifying the tip by cutting the end off the ground electrode and bending it so it is a side gap plug ,Then reducing the gap from .028 to .019. All in an attempt to control detonation and preignition.The only reason I don't use iridium is the cost.I have to run a full season and two plugs per race for five races is a lot of money .The reason I change the plugs is so I cant read the heat range after the run.You can't do that with used plugs.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

What are the cons/pros of the multi-ground (K) versions?

EDIT: supposedly they stick 0.04" further in thus increasing compression and have a more efficient spark. We don't want more compression, so CR10E is probably the one we should try first. On the other hand on we might want to reduce compression with a thicker gasket in which case we might consider using one with a "projected electrode".

[Racer x]

I am going to shim the plug to get it out of the combustion chamer. The problem with the electrode is it gets to hot .so two electrodes is worse. There is no compression change with tha plug. You can use a thicker head gasket to reduse compression.but you will then have to adjust the cam timing.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I think we should go with the CR10EK. With two electrodes the chance of getting them indexed reasonably well is twice as high and we can simply remove the ground that we don't want with a lower risk of totaling the plug.

At $6.48/piece from Amazon they are only $1.62 more than the CR8E. Low price stuff like this makes great fillers to enable free super saver shipping.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

NGK 24051 Oxygen Sensor: $13.91 Is this cheap, or what? Maybe they reversed the first two digits by accident...

2x NGK (2360) CR10EK Multi-Ground Spark Plug: $12.96 Picture is incorrect...

Lawson Industries 45273 INSYNERATOR High Performance Turbo Tube Muffler $29.32
This thing is 24" long, but according to my measurements it shouldn't extend beyond the end of the bike.

Total: $59.56 incl. Tax & Shipping

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Toyota MR2 SW20 Intercooler 16 x 8 x 4: $75.95 shipped



OK, it's huge and unmodified it would stick out on both sides a couple of inches, but we'll see if we need/want to resize it by removing layers, sawing the sides off at an angle and re-welding the tanks. In any case I think it should be a lot easier to make any intercooler smaller rather than larger.

The price for a core of comparable dimensions from bellintercoolers.com is $250, and we freed up a huge chunk of the preallocated budget.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

I totally forgot to reply to these posts...

Originally Posted by ducducgooseit

I will volunteer as a set of eyes to review to the software written for the control system. I have written synchronous and asynchronous control software for many years.

Thank you very much. One of the few things I'm really a bit worried about, is getting the software to work with an absolute minimum of nasty surprises in rare events.

Originally Posted by ducducgooseit

This is an interesting thread to read ...

A pretty good example of how not to do it, don't you think? We're smart enough to do the thinking before the building, with the result that we'll end up having better monitoring equipment, better fuel supply, better ignition control and better charge cooling.

[Lowspeed Lowside]

4x fuel injector high flow rate manufacture 650CC auto part: $104.02

The flow rate of two injectors is high enough for the 100hp/methanol case, so I initially only ordered two. However, in the mean time the page has been updated and one must order at least four, so I've itemized the expense for four. The injectors are reasonably cheap, I'll likely be wrecking a couple and the contact person Michelle Xu was very nice, so I ended up purchasing an additional four injectors, for a total of $136.06 for six injectors and got shipping by DHL. If anybody is interested in buying two from me for $52.01 shipped they can send me a PM (assuming that I haven't destructively tested too many by then).

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

Python Injection, Inc. 745-204 Precision Remanufactured OEM Fuel Pump: $17.36 incl. Tax

Remanufactured parts are essentially used parts, so they cannot be used without violating the premise. I'll be using the following pump instead:

P-05AK/Electric Fuel Pump: $12.11 w/free shipping



The same reasoning applies to the following item:

Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside

I only bought them because they were cheap. I've got to stop doing this.

2007 CBR600RR 600rr rr 600 throttle body: 29.95 shipped[...]

For the time being the remanufactured pump and CBR throttle bodies go into the box o' possible useful but likely junk items. Maybe I'll, uh, destructively test the setup, so that I have an excuse to use the stuff for a used EX500 engine that will of course be turbocharged so that I have something to do in 2012.

This means we still need to find/create a suitable throttle body. I'm considering getting the OEM 047 133 061G that fits a VW Lupo with a 1.0L engine with 37kw.[*]



The problem is that we're beginning to run low on disposable cash and the $121.13 would leave us only $207.91, and we'd be running a serious risk of going over budget, as we still need to get exhaust, fuel and silicone tubing, turbo oil feed and return, electronic components, bolts, clamps, gaskets and a honeycomb catalytic converter. The good news it that we won't be needing EV1 or whatever silly shaped $10/piece connectors fit the fuel injectors as we can afford the luxury of single purpose soldered connections.


[*] similar throttle for $106.18 shipped here.

[Racer x]

What sort of test do you do that damages the injector?

[Lowspeed Lowside]

Originally Posted by Racer x

What sort of test do you do that damages the injector?

I'm new at this, so I really don't know. Off the top of my head I can think of following:

• running the cheapo fuel pump out of spec to see what happens when you don't have a fuel filter that fishes out the shrapnel
• applying the full current for too long could overheat and destroy the solenoid
• testing flow rates with a safe but possibly unsuitable substance such as water
• clamping the wrong spot too tightly and cracking the plastic
• 'experts' that claim that cheap Made-in-China parts will fall apart when you look at them are indeed not mistaken 1.47% of the time

[Racer x]

I SEE
Fuel filters are cheap enough and will not hurt flow. But you should test flow rate with the fluid you plan to use. Water is VERY heavy .