May 6th, 2014, 04:16 PM | #1 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Comparing the 250 and 300 motor/engine (picture intense)
Here are some design changes for those interested in knowing. To start, here some numbers of the two to put things in perspective.
Ninja 250 Compression ratio 11.6:1 Bore and stroke 62.0 x 41.2mm oil capacity 1.7L (1.8 qt) Ninja 300 Compression Ratio 10.6:1 Bore and Stroke 62.0 x 49.0mm oil capacity 2.4L (2.5 qt) Now onto the comparision! CYLINDER HEAD The whole top head and valve train are entirely the same. Parts will interchange. Slight external casting differences but nothing significant. Cam combustion chamber volume, valve angles, cams, intake/exhaust port sizing, the whole shabang! 250/300 headers fit. Cam chain and cam chain guides are the same. HEAD GASKET You can use a 250 gasket on the 300 cylinder head. You will leak coolant near the cam chain area. Here's a 250 gasket on top of the 300 cylinder block. CYLINDER BLOCK The 250 cylinder block contains steel cylinder sleeves pressed into an aluminum block whereas the 300 block is lighter and full aluminum cast with nikasil plated cylinders. The 300 cooling jacket is entirely whereas the 250's is enclosed. The back coolant port is square on the 300 and round on the 250. Height of the cylinders and block are the same between the two models. I am not sure why there is a notch connecting the two cylinders on the 300 yet. Cam chain tensioners are the same. CYLINDER BASE GASKET You can see where the 300 is larger on the inside of the cam chain area. The 300 block is bigger in this area to accommodate its cooling jacket. PISTONS The late model 250 pistons are crowned and the 300 pistons are flat tops. 250 pistons have oiling holes for the pistons pins and the 300 lacks it. Also noted is that the 250 pistons have holes casted under the piston. Perhaps for weight reduction and to reduce windage. Each piston has 8 oil drain back holes in the oil ringland groove. 300: piston deck to skirt bottom length: 41.8mm top of pin bore to deck: 13mm skirt width: 38mm 250: piston deck to skirt bottom length: 47mm top of pin bore to deck: 14mm top of pin to top of dome: 16.5mm skirt width: 38mm Left: 250 Right: 300 RODS 250 rods are about 2.8mm longer than the 300 rods. The 250 rod oiling holes are not chamfered like the 300's. The 300 rod piston ends are thicker. CRANKSHAFT If you didn't know by now already, the 300 cranked is a "stroked" version of 250 crank and yes, they interchange. The 300 rod journal is placed 3.9 mm further from centerline giving it the increased stroke. Aside from that, the only difference you'll see between the two are the weight shapes. Left: 300 Right: 250. The 300 crank has the flywheel bolt attached still. COUNTER BALANCER The purpose of the counter balancer is to reduce engine vibrations. The 300 has heavier weights as seen by the thickness. The oiling holes are 90 degrees off from the 250 but it's nothing significant. LUBRICATION SYSTEM a. Oil filter The late model 250 oiling system is very outdated and not much had changed from the early model 250s. The oil filter is an open element encased in a separate compartment within the lower crankcase. The bolt that holds it place contains a pressure relief valve that opens when the filter media is clogged to keep oil pressure up to maintain bearing life but spews out contaminated oil at the same time. The oil filter media surface area is roughly 2 times larger than on the 300 can filter. The bypass valve should be incorporated in the can style oil filters but I don't know if it is. Installing a larger oil filter on the 300 increases oil and filtering capacity. A little more work is involved in changing the oil filter on the 250 vs the 300. Inside the lower bottom of the crankcase on the 250 there are numerous spots for large deposits of crud to pool. The oil in the motor is pre-screened before it is sucked up into the oil filter where it catches the finer particles. The metal pre screen catches all the big debris but not all of it will accumulate there. Granted, if you have big stuff there you have bigger problems to worry about. There is a plastic oil pick-up tube with a metal screen snapped inside. Advantages of the 300 oil pan: 1. increased oil capacity 2. increased oil cooling efficiency due to the extra surface area of cooling fins 3. baffled oil pan prevents oil from sloshing around 4. no places for unfiltered crud to pool 5. access to the lower crankcase assembly without having to split the case b. Oil Pump The oil pump on the 250 is a separate and removable unit. It is bulky and heavy. The 300 oil pump is built into the lower crankcase. The crankshaft drive gear is lighter due to the holes cut into it which reduces rotating mass. The oil pump gears are the exact same between the two. c. piston oil squirters The 250 only has what looks like one oil squirter drilled for the right piston and none for the left. The 300 has 2 tapped into one of the main oil galleys similar to the 250 in location but for both pistons. Oil is used for lubrication as well as cooling. 250: You can see the small hole in the metal shaft towards the middle right. 300: (the left squirter is slightly damage from motor throwing a rod) d. oil pressure valve release 250: located on the left side under the crank cam chain gear. 300: located on the underside of the lower crankcase across from the oil pickup filter. Also note the cast-in lip on for the crankshaft cam chain guide differences. The lip on the 300 is further away and rounder to help keep the cam chain oiled better. I was experiencing came chain slapping against the lip on the 250 which cut a groove in the lip. CRANKCASE HALVES The location of the oil pressure sensor for your dummy light is located differently as well as the neutral position switch. The 250 oil pressures sensor is located inline with oiling tube at the front of the case. On the 300, it's located on the lower half towards the rear. Sprocket covers will not interchange. There are noticeable changes on the top halves. The 300 has a more opened and clearanced area for the cylinder block base and rotating assembly. Also noticeable are the changes in the crankcase breather design toward the rear of the case. 250 and 300 lower bottom: 250 and 300 upper top: 300 pic 1 250 pic 1 250 pic 2 Left side Lower (300 top, 250 bottom): Left side upper (300 top, 250 bottom): right side lower (250 top, 300 bottom): Right side upper (300 top, 250 bottom): Opened up area on the 300: TRANSMISSION a. gearing 1rst and 6th gear are different between the two. 250 1st 2.600 (39/15) 2nd 1.789 (34/19) 3rd 1.409 (31/22) 4th 1.160 (29/25) 5th 1.000 (27/27) 6th 0.893 (25/28) 300 1st 2.714 (38/14) 2nd 1.789 (34/19) 3rd 1.409 (31/22) 4th 1.160 (29/25) 5th 1.000 (27/27) 6th 0.857 (24/28) b. Shifter drum Shifter follower stopper c. Clutch The 300 utilizes a slipper clutch. Alternator: 300 puts out 21 Amps vs 19 Amps at 5k RPMs. 250 puts out 40+ volts at 4k rpms vs 35+
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May 6th, 2014, 06:19 PM | #2 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
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Great informations, thank you for that
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May 6th, 2014, 06:23 PM | #3 |
wat
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so... a 300 motor with the 250 pistons, then?
what compression would that be? higher than 11.6 right? thank you cuong. a great service to the community
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May 6th, 2014, 06:44 PM | #4 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Quote:
Could you explain the quote above a little further?
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May 6th, 2014, 06:51 PM | #5 |
wat
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so it seems to me the "best"/"most likely to explode" combination would be 250 cylinders, bored out. with the 250 high compression big pistons, and the 300 stroked crank and rods
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May 6th, 2014, 08:04 PM | #6 |
motorcycle rider
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Extremely informative and interesting!!
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May 6th, 2014, 08:13 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org member
Name: mania
Location: Asia
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Excellent informative post Thank You!
I have always been curious what might be the differences in my interim "special edition" 2013 250 In 2013 here in Thailand for the first 7 months we had a 250 instead of the 300 Yet the bike is virtually identical except displacement I have always guessed it would just be crank cylinder pistons/rods throttle bodies & of course slipper clutch Not that I would venture to change all these things but just out of curiosity Thanks again for interesting post |
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May 6th, 2014, 09:37 PM | #8 | |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Oh the possibilities
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May 7th, 2014, 12:39 AM | #9 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
which should mean higher bore/stroke ratio rpm? http://layz-motor.com/product/body-k...ja-250-300-cc/ |
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May 7th, 2014, 01:40 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Hansveer
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Why no mention of the clutch? Can the 300 clutch be used in the 250?
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May 7th, 2014, 02:12 AM | #11 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
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Quote:
I hope to understand your thinking right, so please take a look here: http://japan.webike.net/products/21400275.html or here: http://japan.webike.net/products/21400276.html Also the cluth from the 300 should fit in the 250, but what's not working is the cover and with this from the 300 you have to cut the fairing. |
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May 7th, 2014, 03:00 AM | #12 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: harry
Location: Central Florida
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I HATE stupid wet deck cylinders!
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May 7th, 2014, 03:08 AM | #13 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Hansveer
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Quote:
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May 7th, 2014, 03:38 AM | #14 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Quote:
Again, thanks !!!
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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May 7th, 2014, 04:11 AM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
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May 7th, 2014, 04:13 AM | #16 |
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Great job thanks
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May 7th, 2014, 09:48 PM | #17 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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Put in some numbers from what I could measure.
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May 8th, 2014, 05:14 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
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There may be no difference in deck height. The rod hole in the piston may be cast higher to accommodate the longer stroke. Of corse then the piston will be pulled lower in the cylinder at BDC, Thus requiring longer rods to clear the bob weights.
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May 8th, 2014, 07:36 AM | #19 |
ninjette.org guru
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If the crankshaft centerline is the same distance from the top of the crankcase, and the piston pin centerline is the same on both, the rods on the 300 are shorter by half the distance in the stroke.
If that is the case, A 300 crank, balancer, and rods would drop in a 250. From a production standpoint, that would make the most sense as long as the shorter rods do not cause a problem with stroke to rod length ratio. If so, use a 250 cylinder with a big bore kit, 300 crank and parts to make a supersize Ninjette.
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May 8th, 2014, 10:12 AM | #20 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
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OOps missed the rod length difference in the OP. So they ran shorter rods in the 300 but shortened the piston by 5.2mm to clear the counter weights maybe ?
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May 8th, 2014, 04:41 PM | #21 | |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
300 below pin thickness: 4.5 mm 250 below pin thickness: 6.36 mm 265 below pin thickness: 4.5 mm This is the 300 piston/rod/crank at BDC: 250 piston/300 rod and crank: Wiseco 265cc 64mm/300 rod and crank: 250 vs 265 64mm @Alex, I've reached the 50 max photos per post. Can you override it for me as a special request? Currently having to resort to hyperlinking in OP. I should have made another post after the original one for just in case.
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May 8th, 2014, 07:09 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
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May 9th, 2014, 06:32 AM | #23 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
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So 300 crank with 250 rods and 6mm over 250 pistons=335cc.
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May 9th, 2014, 03:40 PM | #24 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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That would be awesome!
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May 9th, 2014, 03:48 PM | #25 |
ninjette.org dude
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