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Old February 20th, 2023, 05:00 PM   #1
Bob KellyIII
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Replacing the circuit board in a pellet stove with a timer.

This is definitely OFF topic !
but I am faced with either buying a $400.00 silly circuit board for my pellet stove or replacing it with a cheap timer....
so I am doing the latter !
........ this wood pellet stove I got about 3 years ago from Tractor supply
it is a Pel Pro PP130B .
I have no idea how many people out there use pellet stoves but here in Northern California they are fairly abundant....
the price of wood pellets is high and getting higher every year but it stays lower than anything except natural gas.... and we don't have natural gas here.
...
so at the moment I am using my wood stove to burn pellets in a cast iron skillet
that I've drilled a hole every 1/4" through the bottom of the skillet
and then dammed up the sides around the skillet so that air is drawn through the pellets.... it works but only barely...
.....
I got up early one morning a few days ago and the house was cold and I found a note left by my Kid saying the stove quit.
upon further investigation it was apparent that the Auger motor was not turning.... so I went on line and ordered a new one. (that was the only component besides the circuit board that I do not have a back up for)
..... so I took the motor apart and tried to see why it quit..... lubed it up
put it back together and tested it and what do you know it worked just fine
...so I put it back in the stove and tried it and nothing... still not feeding pellets. so I contacted Pel Pro the people I bought the stove from and asked how come they don't have the circuit board on their parts list and was told that they did.... (I had just not seen it) and they want a whopping $400.00 for it.....
.....well I got to thinking about that and I've decided to convert the pellet stove to a timer instead of the circuit board
I'll need at least 4 toggle switches a momentary contact switch and at least 2
110vac idiot lights....
the fans will both be hooked to the same switch and be full blast as they really should be in the first place... the way it was the Room fan was speed controled to blow a little on low and full blast on high... which is stupid beyond words you want as much heat from the wood pellets as you can get so the fan should be blowing full blast all the time ...
so it will be on it's own toggle switch. (the exhaust fan and room fan will both be hooked straight to the switch )
next is the Auger motor. the Auger motor is a 2 RPM motor which is very strong but turns very slow so it will have to be on longer than my old stove I had previously converted to a timer because a circuit board failure.
the on / off of the Auger motor will be controlled by the timer I had just ordered from Amazon for $24.95 ... it is a 110vac affair that has 2 knobs on it to easily control the time durations of on and off.
on one leg going to the motor from the timer unit I will run the power through the snap switches on the pellet stove for safety the 2 snap switches prevent over heating and shut off power to the Auger if it gets to hot... a necessary thing for your own safety ! also on this line I plan to add a momentary contact switch to 110vac (normally open) so at anytime independent of the timer I can push the button and turn on the Auger motor and feed in some pellets. a handy thing I did to my last pellet stove.
in addition to all that I will need a switch to turn on the igniter... sense this stove has a self ignite/start arrangement on it ....all I will need to do is flip the switch (that why the extra idiot light so I won't forget I left it on.)
and the fire will light....
.....
sense I previously did this to my old stove a very small pellet stove
I have a leg up on how to do it.... it's not that hard but getting all the wiring sorted is the hardest part....
this timer I ordered is a plug into the wall unit and plug your appliance into it type thing not really conducive to this kind of project but it does have the 2 knobs on it to make it alot easier to get the timing right to keep the house warm.
.... using this idea the safety system will only be on as long as the Auger is on.....and that is fine as if it gets too hot the Auger will not come on to feed more pellets and get a thermal run away.
(it stops it from burning down your house by not feeding it any more wood pellets.... so that is still going to be working in the system.

...what will not work.... the vacuum switch will be gone and the switch for the hopper lid.... I could hook it up to the power if I wanted but it is actually a pain in the butt because if you lift the lid to put in more wood pellets
it stops the Auger from feeding more pellets.... and if you take too long
your fire will go out and it has to restart.
so the Hopper lid switch and the vacuum switch will no longer be on the thing.

the Vacuum switch activates then the door to the hopper is opened or the door to the burner is opened and the exhaust fan is what makes the suction that turns it on or off. it pulls a small amount of air from the hopper through the Auger tube to make sure fire does not burn up into the hopper
a pirty ingenious method of keeping fire out of the hopper.
....
at the moment I am in the middle of getting the wires loose and things disconnected, I pulled the circuit board and found that it does have a fuse in it but it looks to be in good shape( i can't be that lucky right ? ) so I will just continue with my plan to put in a timer.
1 switch for the power to the timer
2 1 switch for the fans
3 1 switch for the igniter
4 3 idiot lights one for the igniter and one for the power to the timer and Auger feed.
5 1 Momentary contact switch for auger feed
6 one timer ( on it's way)

total cost will be close to$50.00 by the time I am done but I have the switches already, but need the idiot lights. and timer.
I have wire and soldering iron and crimp on connectors.
.....
for my last stove I drew up a schematic wiring diagram and I think I will do that again as it made it alot easier hot having to remember what I was going to do with that wire half way through !
.....
if you have any questions feel free to ask !
Bob.......
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Old February 22nd, 2023, 12:03 PM   #2
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I have begun to wire the Pellet stove anew....
I have the fans wired up and tested them via a temporary toggle switch
and they worked just as planned the room fan turns very fast now and blows harder than it ever did before this is both good and bad the blowing harder is a good thing in that it will extract more BTU's from the pellets than it ever did before, but the fan itself may not last near as long this way.... if not I have a backup and I may resort in trying to slow it down a bit to not put so much stress on it.
I just made up both wires to the thermal snap switch to wire it in line with the Auger motor as a safety feature if it gets too hot it will break the connection to the Auger motor and turn off the motor so it doesn't feed more pellets and it will cool down.
I am fortunate that everything in the stove works on 110vac... that wasn't always the case with pellet stoves as some had a 12vdc power supply on the circuit board to power certain things.
....
Soon I will drill holes in the outside pannel shield to mount the switches
on the side of the stove... I want this stove to be easily understood by anyone as I am asleep when others are awake in my house so someone is always awake here. we have always done that. it is just safer !
....
so making it easy to figure out how to operate it is kind'a hard. I know how it works down to the last detail but my wife could care less and just expects to flip a switch and get the house warm.
so my answer to that is just turn on every switch to the on position
and turn off the igniter after you see flames.
.....
there is a Potential problem however... the timer I purchased has Knobs on it to adjust the on /off time of the Auger motor that feeds the pellets...
other timers I used killed the settings if you turned it off.... (not good)
this one should not.... if it does however, I will have to re wire the timer to be on all the time.
....
that timer $24.95 from Amazon should be here Friday ! and I would like to have it all wired up and ready to be put into action at that time.
I am using over 2 bags of wood pellets in the wood stove a day right now
heating the house.... and part of another bag ! so 2.5 bags of pellets a day !
OUCH ! that hurts ! that is anything but efficient ! but it is only temporary !
....
problems....
I don't have any idiot lights at all and I need 2
and I need one more switch for the igniter it will be the last to go in as I can start it with a propane torch without it.
....
financial restraints ( I ain't got the money !) will require me to wait on the other parts but I am fairly certain I have enough to at least get the stove working again and get back to a bag a day efficiency on the wood pellets.
....
I am sure it will be better in the long run than in it's original condition.
mainly because it is less likely to brake again.... the circuit boards on pellet stoves are notorious for going out and there really is no fixing them without a electronics lab and a bunch of parts on hand....
the timers are cheap and I will buy a back up to just have on hand.
but the thing that has bugged me sense the day I hooked up the stove
is the long reset time and the veriable fan control....
in my mind if you are blowing heat off a heater you want the most wind you can get... these idiots for some reason made that fan veriable to change speed with the heat setting.... which is plane stupid ! if it's burning on low you should have maximum air flow to get all the heat out of the stove that you can get.... as well as when it is running on High... you want maximum air flow that you can get.... not a throttled down fan... and that is exactly how it is in stock form.
so that variable form of speed control to the fan has been removed which will put more heat out into the house than it ever did before.
the down side is that it will not be thermostatically controlled anymore
which is a bummer. but it will be more efficient and pump out alot more BTU's especially on the lower settings.
.....
from my experience with my other pellet stove that I converted to a timer
it's not necessary to adjust the timer very often as once you get it dialed in close it is easy to just add a few seconds to the on time to make it hotter or subtract a few seconds to make it cooler.... as we usually have it running 24/7 all the time during the winter.

.....
it's getting there !
....
Bob.......
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Old February 23rd, 2023, 04:29 PM   #3
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I have a pellet grill and I love it. Great smoke flavor and easy to maintain the desired heat. Also perfect for slow cooking such as a brisket.
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Old February 23rd, 2023, 05:27 PM   #4
Bob KellyIII
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Yes I have heard good things about them but what turns me off about them is the extream high price of the pellets..... because god forbid if you use regular
wood pellets in one....you'll have to throw out what you cooked ! it will taste like garbage.... the regular pellets have all kinds of impurities in them
even if you go to the added expense of buying oak pellets (which I do not recommend) there is alot of dirt in the making of regular pellets.
....
A pellet fired smoker sounds like a good thing because you can adjust the burn to real small and it's automatic !!!! a far cry better than the hand stoked method !
what ever you do don't use regular wood pellets in it though !!!
.....
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Old February 26th, 2023, 09:39 PM   #5
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Well, I should have the additional switches and pilot lights tomorrow
however the timer has been delayed by Fex EX shipping simply because they do not go past Redding except for once or twice a week... so my package has been delayed because of them.... it seems like every time something is shipped via FED EX it is delayed by at least 3 days to a week and it's aggravating !



So I was setting there reasoning out the wiring of this thing and made a few discoveries.. from the test stage.... so I started wiring it up for real...
I had the power going to the Auger straight from the wall outlet which had to be hooked to the power on/off of the stove so that had to change. however the Auger is powered only by the timer so I want to have the timer and Auger turned on and off by the power switch.... this is where it gets confusing as the timer I got plugs directly into the wall so that will have to be changed, I want the timer mounted on the side of the stove permanently so
power to the timer will come from the power switch, to the INPUT of the timer is also a big clunky plug in on the surface of the timer so I will run the wires from that directly to the Auger loop ( that includes the safety snap button switches that are in line to the Auger. )
I had to stop and start talking to myself about how this thing is going to work LOL as the feed button needs to be hooked to power that is not on the timer so I can feed in pellets any time I want and not have to wait for the timer to cycle... so power to it needs to come from the power switch not the separate Auger power...
....
I am wondering about opening up the case of the timer when it gets here and hooking wires to the plug-in on the front to the Auger motor directly
it would be a cleaner setup.
I would like to have a light on on the output of the timer when the Auger motor is working as I would be able to tell when pellets should be falling into the burn basket (augers have been known to jam and get plugged and they will stop feeding the fire when that happens... ) so I may well add one more light in the setup....
right now I have one light for the power light to everything on the stove
one light for the igniter so it can be turned on and about 5 minutes later turned back off.... ( the light is a reminder basically that the igniter is operating and it only needs to be on to just get the fire started.)
so basically I am all ready for the parts go get the pellet stove working again
so I am waiting for parts.

although I have had no problems with this stove as of yet except the circuit board going bad on me... it is a very good stove and have not regretted it's $1200. price tag yet 3 years of trouble free operation is fantastic.... but when the first part to fail is the most expensive part on the stove it kind'a dampens my enthusiasm for the stoves manufacturer !

my go around will remove the thermostatic control of the stove and I am definitely not happy about that.... but there is no way I can hook a thermostat to the timer that I know of so it is what it is..... LOL
I thought about a thermostat that could brake the circuit to the auger motor
that is easy enough to do... but the problem is the fire would go out and not re start... this is what it Would do automatically which is a really cool feature
but that feature is not worth $400.00 to me !
....
in the future when this is all said and done I will be able to run the stove
( with the fan on HIGH all the time instead of very slow when it's on low)
so it will produce alot more heat for the house.
and when I want to turn it off I'll just turn off the Auger switch and wait for the stove to cool down ( the fans keep going to cool it down) and then turn off the power to everything.
....
Bob........
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Old February 27th, 2023, 06:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
in the future when this is all said and done I will be able to run the stove
( with the fan on HIGH all the time instead of very slow when it's on low)
so it will produce alot more heat for the house.
The heat you get out is the amount the burning fuel produces, times the stove's efficiency. If the stove is already 80 percent efficient, then running the fan faster than designed might get the efficiency a couple percent higher, but may also keep parts of the stove and flu from getting hot enough to stay clean. In any case, you won't get a lot more heat out, since there isn't much wasted heat going up the chimney in the first place.
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Old February 27th, 2023, 10:49 AM   #7
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that's true ! I don't expect a noticable improvement at all but I know in my head that it will be a tad better than it was.... logic alone states that !
the way it was was a veriable room fan that sped up the higher the heat setting was set at. the exhaust going out the stove pipe was quite hot on all settings
so I know it's not the most efficient of stoves... but it ran and warmed the house on a bag and a half a day on most days.... that pirty good for here.!
...my other Tiny stove that could not keep up, did 1 1/4 bags a day consistantly
running at full blast most of the time but it wasn't enough heat on cold days
and the house really didn't feel all that warm.
so when we got this stove it was an abrupt change in heat output
it heated the house easily and it was worth the extra pellets just for that !
we still have cold rooms in the house... both bedrooms are nippy most of the time.... so we're not wasting too much heat all in all.
the Idea of slowing down the fan seems silly to me when the idea is to blow all the heat off the heater that you can get.... and I have no idea why they did that
it's not like they were concerned to keep the outside flue pipe at a certain tempiture because it can be at any tempiture.... no one cares !
our original heater , the small pellet stove... drew in intake air around the
exhaust pipe pre heating the intake air slightly..... this new one does not do that . it's intake air is a separate hole in the wall completely separate
from the hot exhaust..... which is unfortunate. but it does put out alot more heat.... something like 55,000 BTU's
so my modification will no doubt be unnoticeable as far as heat output go
and may only result in wearing out the fan sooner.... but it is what it is...
but I do think I will be getting more heat Out of the stove simply because the fan will be pushing more air through the stove.
....
I am a bit concerned about the burn adjustment however ...they some how
managed to control the burn rate by the exhaust fan I THINK .... a trim pot was used to set the burn on this thing... which is weird as my old stove had a damper door that you adjusted.... and I may well have to make one up for this one because there is no way to adjust the speed of either fan now
....
I might could use a light dimmer switch but I kind'a doubt it ..if so I could do that for either fan....
the Room fan is a big thing and the exhaust fan is fairly small
both are ball bearing and well balanced and run nice and quietly.
....
the idea of this stove is to make the hottest most intense heat source
from a hand full of wood pellets and extract that heat to warm the house
keeping the fire small and feeding it constantly but also burning it extreamily
hot.... the stainless steel burn pot glows a dull red all the time so it is quite hot ! .
.....
we'll see if I can get my parts this week so I can put the stove back into action.... it's not looking good though as we have a blizzard going on outside right now.... and that is supposed to continue into tomorrow ...
....
that's the last thing I wanted to see when I got up this morning...
More Snow !
oooh well.....
...
Bob..........
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Old February 27th, 2023, 11:05 AM   #8
Bob KellyIII
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Hay Jim do you think a dimmer switch could control a small AC motor ?
last I saw guys were using dimmer switches to control the speed of motors but those motors were DC not AC.....
well sense the dimmer switch is AC and the motor is AC there shouldn't be a problem except for maybe the amperage draw.... dimmer switches can not handle much in the way of Amps...that much is certain ! but I think one might be able to control the exhaust fan so it would control the burn rate...
that might be the easiest route to take... just put in a dimmer switch on the exhaust fan and get the burn rate set just right.

( this stoves burn rate has never been the best in the world I played with the adjustment many times and I could not get the blue flames your supposed to get ! )
.....
Bob.......
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Old February 27th, 2023, 11:53 AM   #9
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Dimmer switches can control some motors OK. A small blower probably has a shaded pole motor, which can be controlled by a cheap dimmer switch. Some dimmers are designed for low power applications and other are designed for kilowatt loads, so just check the motor's power consumption and size the dimmer accordingly. I'd guess the blower motor is not a very high power motor.
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Old February 27th, 2023, 02:35 PM   #10
Bob KellyIII
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Thanks Jim !
yah it's a really low amperage fan motor I think that would be the best option
... I checked out some dimmer switches on Amazon and found the one I have used before on a drill motor and it worked great.... it can handle 12 amps
more than enough I am sure....
so I'll probably order one so I can get the burn rate fine tuned rather than use a damper.... as that would just leave the motor running full blast and under heavy strain at all times , where controlling the fan's speed would be alot easier on the motor.....
...
the old little pellet stove went through a exhaust fan every year some times 2 a year depending on it's fan... the room fan on it was a horrible design though
a long wide squirrel cage thing and finding one that fit was near impossible
last time I replaced it I bought one I thought would fit but had to just use the motor as the fan itself was too long...
for this new bigger stove I have already bought an extra fan for both the room fan and the exhaust and I have a Auger motor coming as well... and I have a extra igniter as well.... so as soon as I can get it up and running again i should be in good shape for a long time.

Bob.....
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Old March 5th, 2023, 05:50 PM   #11
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Ok I finally got the stove back together and working !
and so far it's working great !
....
I did put the safety button switch in line with the Auger feed so if it gets too hot it will brake the circuit to the Auger feed and stop feeding pellets to the fire
so it will cool down ! (I've never seen it come on...but it is good to know it's in there)
the way I have it right now a green light is on when it is plugged in above the power switch.... I wanted it to turn on when the switch was turned on but some how I messed that up !?!?!???? but it's fine that way I an tired of working on it! HAHAHAH
...I glued the timer over a hole that took me a good hour to cut out of the side pannel of the stove. that was a real bugger to get cut out.
I simply used about 1/2 tube of Shoe goo from walmart and just glued the timer over the hole and it turned out where it doesn't look too bad.
all the switches work and are hooked up correctly
the power switch activates the timer and that in turn activates the Auger
the fan switch is seperate from the powerswitch because turning the stove off you need to leave the fans on so the stove cools down normally (or the pellets in the hopper will get too hot and possably self ignite)
so the fans have their power from the hot on the power switch they are controled by the fan switch alone. the auger switch interrupts the power going to the auger motor regardless of what the timer is doing...
so I can turn off the feed at any time. there is a small green light that comes on on the timer telling me when the auger motor is turned on .
the next button is a momentary contact switch that feeds power directly to the auger motor bypassing the timer. that was a bit confusing to hook up right but I finally got it to work as planned ...so I can poke the feed button and turn on the auger motor at any time to feed in pellets to the burn pot.
and last but not least is the igniter switch and it's light. when the stove is cold and I am just lighting it I simply poke the feed button to drop pellets into the burn pot.... and then turn on the igniter... the light will come on and stay on as long as the igniter is on.... once the pellets ignite and start burning good I just turn off the igniter as it is not supposed to run any longer than necessary as the fire will maintain itself once it is going.
....

it's working good and working as planned !
as close as I can tell I do not need to add a trimmer pot to slow down the burn as it's working better than it ever has in the past ! so I am going to leave it alone....
I've gone from 1.5 bags of wood pellets down to 1~1.25 bags a day !
so I have seen a good improvement !
the Adjustment of the timer is very touchie however and so far I am the ONLY ONE to touch the stove as I know that timer better than anyone in the house LOL
right now I had to cut it down as it was getting too warm in the house even with snow on the ground ! and that is something our old stove would not do !
it just could not keep up but this new bigger one has never had a problem keeping us warm with snow on the ground.
the timer is set at around 10 seconds on and 20 seconds off on the average
I have it set usually to where the last dumping of pellets has burned down before it adds more so the flame goes up and down all the time.... that's about as Low as I can get it and still keep the fire going....
and that puts out alot of heat .... I've had it as High as 20 seconds on and
1 min off and the flame was constant and putting out more heat than we could stand ! LOL
but 10 on and 20 off seems to work very well 24/7
I can tweak either knob to increase or decrease the heat if I so desire
but I want to reduce the ware and tear on the parts as much as possible
so having the fire where it goes up and down over time seems to be the best.

I didn't expect to get any improvement in efficiency but obviously I did by using 1/4 bag less a day is quite an improvement.... and the heat output of the stove is noticeably more with that big fan motor running full blast all the
time .
so I saved over $400 bucks on the circuit board and spent about $75.00
on parts and improved the pellet stove quite a bit.... I am very happy with the results! HAHAHAHA

(next time I have that pannel off I need to tie all those wires together as it's a rats nest in there.... I had it all tied up but had to cut them all off to trace wires again as I had wires come off the switches with all the movement I did)
....it's like I put them on tight WTF !!!

...
Bob.......
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Old March 31st, 2023, 04:19 PM   #12
Bob KellyIII
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its a few months in on using the timer to replace the circuit board on my pellet stove.... hooking the exhaust fan up directly with no way to control it's speed has not been a problem.... it burns cleaner than it ever has I suspect the stove
has never burned correctly because of that feature in it !
but the Timer I used is hard to adjust... it has knobs on it and is easy to turn and all but it's range is a problem it goes all the way up to an hour or so ON and the same with the OFF adjustments but I only need at max up to a minute on/off ... so the adjustment is touchy to say the least... the with of the pointer on the knob is way to far to turn it down if it gets too warm in the house
so I try to adjust it very carefully.... I found I am only using the on time adjuster to regulate the heat with the off time left at something like 30 seconds
or less....
but it is working and working realy good and I am getting more heat out of the stove than I used to get out of it of that I am sure I am using less pellets and the house is toasty warm...
....
I do need to change a few things ... I've got the power on light lit all the time it is plugged in and should only be lit when the power switch to the timer and rest of the unit is powered... but that is minor
....
All in all it was a worthwhile endeavor and far cheaper than the stock circuit board by far. the only draw back is that it is not thermostatically controlled anymore.... but that is fine I just turn it off and on when I want to it's not that hard ! HAHAHAHAH
.....
I have no fear of setting it on low and leaving it full of pellets and then leave the house for 3 days

....
so it does work as I knew it would because I have done this before
if anyone wants help doing this to their pellet stove just PM me.

....
Bob......
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Old May 4th, 2023, 04:02 PM   #13
Bob KellyIII
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
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I was running the wood pellet stove late one night and I noticed noise coming from the heater.... sounded like a fan motor a ticking sound after a while it got much worse
I sprayed it with WD40 ( a risky thing to do to a hot stove... but I was getting desperate)
....
about an hour later as I was standing there watching it the fan motor just stopped
so I turned it off..... I have a extra room fan motor that I bought when I got the stove
because I know they ware out.... so I put the new fan motor in there and fired it back up.... having a extra fan motor for each fan in the stove and an extra igniter is a must
as far as I am concerned... when the stove is your main source of heat you cannot have the stove broke down for a week at a time when the fan get's shipped to you....
.... the Timer Modification to the pellet stove has worked better than I antisipated.
I can cut the stove down alot lower and have it still run than I ever could when it was stock. and the low settings are better... I have a infinately veriable setting of on and off cycles now so I can set the stove to what ever I want....
a really low setting is so low it just has slightly warm air coming out of it....
the timer is set to ON for 3~4 seconds and off for approx 1 minute...
at about the time the pellets that fell in last time burn up and loose their flame new pellets fall in and the cycle starts again..... that is about as low as I can get it and keep a fire going.....
this has resulted in a savings of almost half a bag a day in pellets
there was no need to change the speed of the exhaust fan as full blast is about perfect for the burn in the fire pot.... which is a good thing!.
....
so it is working and working great....
...
Bob.....
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Old May 10th, 2023, 02:27 AM   #14
DannoXYZ
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Time to go full-digital with Arduino control of this thing! You'll be able to get sensor-input of temps, programmable timers based on temp. PWM control of fan-speed. All from comfort of your sofa with WiFi/Bluetooth connection to stove!!!

Yeah, costs of pellets is out of control!

Ever look into turbo burn barrels? I was looking into them for pool-heater, but I just don't generate enough trash to feed the darn thing! Went with solar water-heater instead.
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Old May 10th, 2023, 06:01 AM   #15
Bob KellyIII
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
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Yes the Arduino would work great but you need to be able to program one... I might be able to make a rudimentary program for the stove and for trigger temps and such but
it's like taking on rocket science to drive a nail.... way over kill for what is needed...
you just need a simple second timer to turn on and off the pellet feed motor, all the rest is fluff and on off switches ! the safety switches are still in effect, so I didn't compromise the safety of the thing.... it will still shut down if it over heats for some reason.
the Arduino things are not that expensive and there is modules that you can plug into it
that will do a variety of things not normally found , like inferred sensors, sound sensors
and metering devices... that would lend them selves well to such an application
..... so if your into the Arduino stuff it is certainly a alternative !!!!!
....
I just paid over $7.89 a bag for 40lbs of wood pellets.... sense this cold spring weather
is still hainging on..... normally $5.49 is the going price. but many people are not carrying wood pellets this late in the winter and the ones that are are gouging the price way up.... typical capitalist behavior.. instead of trying to ban AR15's they should be going after companies that Rape the people like this every year for tons of profits
yet nothing is done about it !.... not to mention the gasoline prices.... getting close to $6.00 a gallon here again..... friggin thieves !
....
Bob......
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