Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[thumper64]

Originally Posted by greg737

Yes, the Ecotrons kit O2 sensors are wide-band. You have to have wide-band O2 sensors if you want the ECU to be able to perform an autotune function.

And since wide-band O2 sensors are always heated, yes they are heated (narrow-band O2 sensors are not heated).

Wrong. You need a wide band for tuning in general because a narrow band doesn't accurately read very far either direction of 14.7:1 air fuel ratio. You can tune with a narrow band, but it's not going to be very easy and will only be able to be used for idle to mid range, which is where you're normally at.

Also wrong because most normal cars have narrowband sensors and do somewhat auto tune over time. Usually the limit is somewhere around 10-20% max change from the original fuel map. There have been some known issues where computers will DETUNE an engine after modifying something though. My understanding is that you can gain more power from adding more advance than just playing with fuel alone. It's more dangerous, but you can see some better gains. Playing with the advance though, you're more prone to encounter preignition and running hotter so having pyrometers to detect when you start seeing a spike in EGTs is a good idea.

And wrong again, there are both heated and unheated narrow band O2 sensors. Heated ones are generally 4 wire, unheated are generally 1 wire. The advantage of the heated ones is they can start taking readings sooner to get the ecu using O2 sensor readings to make corrections.

While the motor is cold and when it's above 80% throttle, the computer only uses data from the tune to control the fuel to the motor, as well as IAT, coolant temp, eld, the advance will be adjusted to some extent based on the readings also. When the motor reaches normal operating temperature, and it's under 80% throttle, it takes in O2 sensor readings and attempts to adjust to get to 14.7:1 or whatever AFR you have it set to a spot on the fuel map. 14.7:1 is normal for idle to low load, though idle is acceptable to be between 13.5:1 to 15.5:1 or so. As load increases, you have to add more fuel to prevent preignition and engine damage. My understanding is basically that a leaner mix gives a little better throttle response, but a little richer gives more power. Too lean is dangerous, and too rich makes it slow and will just wash the oil off your cylinder walls. So you have to make that decision where to get the fuel dialed into and generally err on the side of caution and get it rich, then gradually lean it out to get it where you want it.

As said, you need a wide band to tune the richer portion because a narrow band isn't accurate very far off 14.7:1 AFR. When really pushing it, you need to be running richer to stay safe, 14.7 is not rich enough.

I'm no expert on tuning EFI, but I've been playing with Hondata S300's SManager and I've kept a boosted motor running more than a year tuning it myself. I have issues keeping open and closed loop straight, but I have the general idea down.

[greg737]

...

[thumper64]

Originally Posted by greg737

Hey Tim, fu(k you and your condescending writing style.

too many misconceptions and too much misinformation out here. It was meant to clarify things Incase someone was trying to learn more.

[Alex]

Tim - you're a bit new here, and haven't learned the players. Greg built one of the cleanest FI installations on a pregen yet seen online, search his earlier posts. Speaking to him as if he isn't aware of the nuances of FI is off-base. His response isn't in line with the TOS/user agreement here, but that doesn't change the fact that you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're interested in putting FI on one of these bikes, odds are you could probably learn a tip or two along the way by reviewing his builds.

[n4mwd]

Thumper, just to make it clear, Greg737 built the first independently designed EFI system for a Ninja 250 pregen. He is not in any way related to ecotrons which markets an EFI kit greatly inferior to Greg737's installation. Greg did state that ecotrons used a wide band O2 sensor, which is incorrect, but that was based on prior misleading statements made by ecotrons.

I think that you sound like a good EFI asset, and I think you'll find that Greg is very knowledgeable too. I predict that you and Greg will eventually land on the same page, but you need to stop accusing him of being stupid on a public forum - at least that's how I read your post.

[thumper64]

I'll edit my last comment but at first I wasn't calling him stupid, just correcting misinformation since someone unfamiliar with efi doesn't need to learn things wrong. I will likely keep my carbs or try to piece something together someday just for kicks if I don't find a wrecked cbr or such to swap in.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Thumper, just to make it clear, Greg737 built the first independently designed EFI system for a Ninja 250 pregen. He is not in any way related to ecotrons which markets an EFI kit greatly inferior to Greg737's installation. Greg did state that ecotrons used a wide band O2 sensor, which is incorrect, but that was based on prior misleading statements made by ecotrons.

I think that you sound like a good EFI asset, and I think you'll find that Greg is very knowledgeable too. I predict that you and Greg will eventually land on the same page, but you need to stop accusing him of being stupid on a public forum - at least that's how I read your post.

Prior misleading posts like the one where he told us it was NB? If your gna bash them at least get your facts straight

Originally Posted by Jiggles

"The total current draw is 3A.
Yes both o2 are heated, as needed. Not 100% duty cycle.
Both are NB .
Yes TB will connect to pre models with some rigid pipe adaptor exactly taylored ."

Originally Posted by greg737

All correct except for the "NB" statement.

The O2 sensors are "WB" a.k.a. "wide-band". If they were NB (narrow-band) the Ecotrons kit wouldn't be capable of "self tuning".

The O2 sensors shown on the Ecotrons page appear to be Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 sensors which is the same sensor I used in my 2005 EX-250 project bike.

Originally Posted by Jiggles

That's what the rep told me so idk hahaha

[choneofakind]

The sensors in the kit are NB.

They have a very narrow reading band, but they can tune. The kit tunes to 14.7 based on a very small window of voltage reading from the sensors, based on whether the reading from the sensor is + or - 450 mV. It makes small changes at a time, but it does a good job of tuning slowly.

Once it figures out the fuel curve for your setup to keep 14.7, it can extrapolate the rich map, which you can control via the user defined lambda table. It works.

Granted, a wideband would be the perfect setup. I might borrow the forum wideband sensor just to double check things in rich mode, but for now, the bike runs very well.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Prior misleading posts like the one where he told us it was NB? If your gna bash them at least get your facts straight

How about this misleading statement:

Originally Posted by ecotrons manual

This kit does NOT require tuning. The kit is tuned for stock engine settings. With dual O2 sensors, the ECU can do self-tuning for 2 cylinders individually for small variations. If you have some perormance parts installed, it may mostly self-learn the small difference. For big changes of the engine, some manual tuning may be required. Anyway it is fully tunable with a laptop software (ProCAL, free, downloadable), for performance.

Was there anybody that got it to work without manual tuning?

[choneofakind]

<-- this guy.


My problem was that my battery is tiny and I was trying to use too much power. When I went from a 55W headlight to a 35W HID, it helped a ton. The kit tunes great, and my bike now runs well. I think the rich map is a bit too rich up top, but that's just a couple numbers I have to change on the desired lambda table.

[Jiggles]

I'm relatively sure setasai did though I think he had some issues with the idle fluctuating but Matt helped him out with that no problem. Either way, you got a weak argument there

And if you're refering to the rich map then uhm, duh, its narrowband not wideband, of course that would need to be tuned if you wanted to use it

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Was there anybody that got it to work without manual tuning?

<--------this guy too. My problems were just wiring on my old bike. Bike is 21 years old.

[n4mwd]

So you guys are saying that you NEVER installed procal or tinkered with any maps, etc. I must have imagined reading otherwise. If you made any changes to the maps, then you didn't auto-tune.

Also, in Greg's defense, the web site never said that it was narrow or wide band, but to do automatic tuning in the fully automatic manner described by the above paragraph, you will need wide band sensors. You can use narrow band, but that's like filling in the grand canyon with a teaspoon.

Chode, what about this line: "the ECU can do self-tuning for 2 cylinders individually for small variations. " That implies that the throttle bodies don't have to be physically synced. I seem to remember you having a problem with your TB getting out of sync. If the above line were true, then you could twist your TB screws all day long and the ECU would simply resync them automatically.

Are you guys saying that I can just install my kit with the O2 sensors and ride away?

[choneofakind]

Yes, I messed with my idle screws. They weren't off that far. The biggest issue was my battery. I spent all that time focused on my screws until I took a look at my voltage readings and unplugged my headlight. The lack of enough power (my bike, not the kit) created my idle fluctuations.

Once I figured out that power was my issue, the ECU figured everything else out. I have not touched the settings for closed loop mode, and the ecu has learned and the bike is now pretty smooth and responsive. I need to adjust open loop mode a bit, but that will come later.

Yes. You could just plug your kit in and it would do its tuning thing.

Of course I installed procal on my computer. Why would you NOT install the tuning software that came with your efi system? You need to plug it in and get data at least once to make sure that learning mode is happening correctly... After that, making changes is up to you. I have not tinkered with any of the learning settings, the ecu did.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

So you guys are saying that you NEVER installed procal or tinkered with any maps, etc. I must have imagined reading otherwise. If you made any changes to the maps, then you didn't auto-tune.

Are you guys saying that I can just install my kit with the O2 sensors and ride away?

Either way you need to install procal and make sure the Map is current.

And yes after installation is correct, o2 sensors in, you can go ride it. plus with the self tuning it gets better each time you drive. Only time you would want to adjust the maps are for rich mode.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yes. You could just plug your kit in and it would do its tuning thing.

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

And yes after installation is correct, o2 sensors in, you can go ride it. p

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!
I will install the kit to my 07 and post the results here. Good or bad.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

The biggest issue was my battery. I spent all that time focused on my screws until I took a look at my voltage readings and unplugged my headlight. The lack of enough power (my bike, not the kit) created my idle fluctuations.

This is a new failure mode I hadn't heard of. Did you check to make sure your kit is not drawing more than 3A including the fuel pump? Also did you test your voltage regulator to make sure you don't have a blown diode? I think other people have installed it on pregens without having to modify the headlight. Did you not notice the bike getting harder/slower to crank?

[choneofakind]

Bike started and cranked fine, but if I let it idle a long time, it would have a dead battery. I didn't check what amperage the kit was drawing, because I didn't think of that. I noticed a few things

• the voltage reading in my procal logs was waaaay low at idle, and came right back up to where it should be the rest of my ride, then way low again when I would stop at long lights
• When I used the brake light, I could see (on data logs) and feel (while riding) the idle start oscillating.
• it was much better when the sensors were unplugged, as far as oscillations were concerned

so on a hunch, I decided that the headlight was the single highest power draw on the bike. I rolled into my driveway one day, and popped the H4 plug out, and wah-lah. A nicely idling bike. So I changed my headlight for HID. I also raised my idle to about 1600. The combination has not given my any problems since, even when the radiator fan kicks in at lights. No more dying bike, no more electrical problems.

NOTE: I don't have a stock battery, as I had to replace the stocker and I chose a tiny one instead. I'm the only person who I know of who's had this issue.

[thumper64]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Bike started and cranked fine, but if I let it idle a long time, it would have a dead battery. I didn't check what amperage the kit was drawing, because I didn't think of that. I noticed a few things

• the voltage reading in my procal logs was waaaay low at idle, and came right back up to where it should be the rest of my ride, then way low again when I would stop at long lights
• When I used the brake light, I could see (on data logs) and feel (while riding) the idle start oscillating.
• it was much better when the sensors were unplugged, as far as oscillations were concerned

so on a hunch, I decided that the headlight was the single highest power draw on the bike. I rolled into my driveway one day, and popped the H4 plug out, and wah-lah. A nicely idling bike. So I changed my headlight for HID. I also raised my idle to about 1600. The combination has not given my any problems since, even when the radiator fan kicks in at lights. No more dying bike, no more electrical problems.

NOTE: I don't have a stock battery, as I had to replace the stocker and I chose a tiny one instead. I'm the only person who I know of who's had this issue.

Keeping in mind that alternators don't put out much power while the engine is idling normally, they will actually put out less power than the engine uses to run, this is not a surprise. Raising your idle speed confirms this. I thought that HIDs drew more current than normal halogen bulbs however.


I have not played with procal, however I know that there generally compensations for voltage for the timing, idle speed, and a few other things that could possibly be adjusted and possibly could help. I haven't played with them in SManager on my car, however if there was a way to adjust it to raise the engine speed if the voltage dips, it could help. It would need an IAC or some other way to create a vacuum leak though to raise the idle.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by thumper64

I thought that HIDs drew more current than normal halogen bulbs however.

35W at 12V is what they use. The ballast sends out a higher current than it receives from the vehicle. So yes; higher current, constant Wattage. This means my total power usage went down because it's a 35W lighting system, not a 55W bulb.

Whatever. I got my bike running properly. No one else with the kit has had this issue, leading me to believe that if I had an OEM battery, this would not have happened.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

35W at 12V is what they use. The ballast sends out a higher current than it receives from the vehicle. So yes; higher current, constant Wattage. This means my total power usage went down because it's a 35W lighting system, not a 55W bulb.

Whatever. I got my bike running properly. No one else with the kit has had this issue, leading me to believe that if I had an OEM battery, this would not have happened.

Did you by any chance happen to have a Super Mega Bright 10X Halogen bulb in there by mistake? If you go to the auto parts place, that is probably what they will try to sell you. The proper bulb is a standard bulb and usually sells for about $4-$5. The super mega halogen bulbs draw more power than standard bulbs. Example of the WRONG bulbs. They can also damage the bike because they get too hot and mess stuff up.

You didn't say much about the battery size. You should have a 7L-BS in there. I experimented with a lithium last year (2"x2"x4" and < 1 lb), but it was no good and I took it back. Is that what you have? A bigger battery will only delay the inevitable. Fixing the headlight was a good solution.

Oh and you might want to review THIS.

[choneofakind]

No, I had a Sylvania Silverstar 60/55 in there...

Yes, I've seen your post on wattage usage.

The battery is the cheapest 12V motorsports battery I could find at AutoZone. It's the same width and depth as the oem battery, but it's about 1/3 the height. I have no idea what other ratings it has, but it worked perfectly fine with the stock bike.

I even switched from my 2357 tail light back to an 1157 tail light. The only thing non-stock about my electrical system is my running lights, but those are LED's so I figured they were basically negligible.

Any way that you look at it, my issues were solved by not using as much power. When I use a 35W bulb, I only get a touch of fluctuation during warm up, but other than that nothing. When the O2 sensors are out for continuous rich-mode usage, I have no problems at all.

/our OT take-over of a GB sale thread.

EDIT: benefit of my headlight swap: more light output, and I have a bi-xenon projector and an 80mm LED halo ring sitting here waiting to go into a spare headlight that's also on the way. I'll have cool headlights and a blacked out oem reflector. It'll look like my headlight is dark when off, and I'm going to wire in some relays and switches so I can use the LED halo as a running light, and then have on/off control of my headlight along with high/low beam. Yay for cool pregens

[n4mwd]

Since this group buy has been over and done with for over a year, I don't think its all that bad to post here.

LED's still use power. Not as much, but its there. If you are on the line, then you need to pay attention to every milliamp. Using LED tail lights might give you a little extra too.

Your alternator output is affected by idle RPM. You didn't say how slow you were idling, but here are the alternator outputs at various RPMs:

1000 -> 6A
1200 -> 8A
1400 -> 10A
1600 -> 11A
6000 -> 15A
10000-> 17A

These are for the pregen.

Usage:
Stock headlight: 5A / 3A (HID).
Tail Light: 2.6 A (1157) / 2.8A (2357)
Spark Plug coils: 0.50A
Cooling Fan: 4A
Ecotrons ECU: 3.5A (assumed that this includes fuel pump)

Total: 15.6A (stock) / 13.6A (HID)
wo/fan: 11.6A (stock) / 9.6A (HID)

So basically, when you are in traffic, you are still going to be running a deficit on power. This is the most likely time your fan will come on and you will hit the brakes. Using HIDs helps a lot, but not enough. Using a bigger battery will help mask the symptoms, but is not a fix. Using LED tail lights might be enough to pull the pregen into the positive.

I suspect the newgen has a bigger alternator which may be why we don't see them with similar problems. However, the part number for the OEM EFI newgen alternator is different from the US model. Only way to know for sure is to hook up an ammeter.

[choneofakind]

True. Old thread.

We know that the EU 250R has a larger output from its alternator. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing with the new bike.

I'm hesitant to switch to LED's for the tail light because I don't think they have enough contrast between brake and running light. I also light my plate with my brake light, so that would have be lit somehow. I don't want to run LED plate lights, that's just more wiring. Superbrightled's come does a white/red combo motorcycle 1157 bulb, but idk how well that really works.

[lgk]

i was trying to get racetech to build some higher output stators for us, but haven't heard back yet.
called ricky stator too, since they have a dedicated 100w output for the gear. but they did not have anything compatible...

i was planning on running some heated gear this winter.

[lgk]

nm

[n4mwd]

Supposedly a ZX-6R stator can be made to fit (requires machining of the side cover) . It has a peak output of 25A, but fewer than stock less than 1600 RPM. The aftermarket Ninja 250 stator from the same people has more power at low RPM than stock (14A vs 11A @ 1600 RPM).

I've never bought from these people and am not specifically recommending them. There are other stator manufacturers as well.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

True. Old thread.

We know that the EU 250R has a larger output from its alternator. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing with the new bike.

I'm hesitant to switch to LED's for the tail light because I don't think they have enough contrast between brake and running light. I also light my plate with my brake light, so that would have be lit somehow. I don't want to run LED plate lights, that's just more wiring. Superbrightled's come does a white/red combo motorcycle 1157 bulb, but idk how well that really works.

Some of those drop in 1157 LED replacements are no good. Before I get one, I want to see a video of it in bright sunlight. Most of them have videos of their bulbs in a dimly lit garage which make them look brighter than they really are.

[choneofakind]

Exactly. I don't really trust most of them, so I'm sticking with an 1157. It still uses less power than my 2357 did during brake-use, so that's at least a step in the right direction.

[n4mwd]

I bought a package of high intensity LEDs for the purpose of retrofitting the Ninja Tail light. These are the same ones used on high end cars. The problem is that they use quite a bit more power than the typical LED. I found that you can't use too many or else you end up using more not less power than the 1157. I shelved the idea, but may revive it if I have the same problem you had with excessive power draws after installing the EFI kit.

[drphils87]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

I spoke with a rep from ecotrons.com about a group buy for the EFI Converion kit for the Ninja 250. 3 buyers = 15% off, 5 buyers = 20% off.

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Update: Group Buy ends 12/24/11

Converting the bikes over to EFI seems to not be very difficult. Here's a DIY posted by @forbitel http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74579

If you are unaware of the benefits of EFI over carberaturs here's a quick list




Price with the 20% off will be $480 + shipping and tax where applicable

Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable



Repost this list and add your name to it if you are in. Only add your name if you are 100% positive you want to buy this and have the money for it. Someone dropping out of the Group Buy at a later time will negatively affect everyone else associated with it, think carefully before you say Yes. If you are unsure about whether you want this system add yourself to the maybe list.

Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07
6. @lgk
7. @justinswidebody
8. @n4mwd
9. @Ninja_Moose
10.
Hmm Maybe....
1. @Jiggles (I might buy a second one for my other Ninja)
2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will."
3.
4.
5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike)
6. @Felipe_the_Ant (Scrounging up some bank)
7.
8.
9. @Fly'in Ninja
10.

[EMSRacer07]

?

[drphils87]

Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07
6. @lgk
7. @justinswidebody
8. @n4mwd
9. @Ninja_Moose
10 @drphils87
Hmm Maybe....
1. @Jiggles (I might buy a second one for my other Ninja)
2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will."
3.
4.
5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike)
6. @Felipe_the_Ant (Scrounging up some bank)
7.
8.
9. @Fly'in Ninja
10.

[drphils87]

Haha didn't notice the date this thing ended.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Haha didn't notice the date this thing ended.

there is another group buy somewhere in the for sale section. jump on with them and get a good deal

[n4mwd]

Try this link. Its for the third group buy. The second one was canceled by ecotrons because it was too soon after the first.

I don't know if they finished the third group buy or not. Unlike this one, that one included free shipping.