Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by setasai

... true but I'm unsure of the point of your post

The end result is fuel cooler "closed loop" vs return to the tank as the "cooler" is essentially the same thing since the tank (where all fuel ultimately goes back to regardless of system) is vented to atmosphere. Pressure should be EXACTLY the same inside vs outside and the difference in temperature is going to be negligible.

I mean really? If you're concerned about hot climates, get a white tank and insulate it with a layer of foam because if there were problems with temperature, we'd have FI bikes breaking down and exploding all over the place.

The problem is that the fuel pump adds a non-negligible amount of heat to the fuel on a return-type system. Pumping any liquid adds heat to it, significant amounts depending on the principle used. One effect of this can be that hot fuel vaporizes in the fuel rail, which means the injectors will be spraying vapor rather than liquid fuel. The result is a mixture that is too far off to fire properly, if at all. Another possible issue is fuel density. If the fuel temperature varies enough the density change can cause the amount of actual fuel sprayed (since fuel is sprayed by volume and not by mass) to vary enough to alter the mixture.

In a true returnless system (in the automotive technology that I'm familiar with, anyway) the fuel pump is cycled on and off such that it only delivers the amount of fuel needed by the injectors. Any other system is a return system, whether the fuel returns to the tank or returns to the fuel pump inlet. In return systems heat can be an issue if the circuit is too small to allow adequate heat rejection. On a car with fuel lines that are many feet long there's enough area to reject lots of heat. On a bike with fuel lines measured in inches that's not necessarily the case.

Oh, and the fuel tank will get hot, that pump heat has to go somewhere on a return system that runs back to the tank.

[setasai]

From what you say, addng a fuel cooler heatsink should "reject" heat enough so that it would simulate being several feet long. Sounds like a solved problem to me.

I'm not sure why we even bother discussing this. Point of the thread is, some of us want EFI, ecotrons has a kit, many have tried it and it works well for thousands of miles, lets buy together and get a discount. END POST.

[greg737]

I'm not sure why we even bother discussing this. Point of the thread is, some of us want EFI, ecotrons has a kit, many have tried it and it works well for thousands of miles, lets buy together and get a discount. END POST.

Sorry Brian, I'm the guilty party. I was just trying to put forward a fuel system configuration option for those who are doing the install on a non-California old-gen EX-250.

During the development of my FI project (development being, in this case, just a nice word for "trial and error") I discovered that the "hot spot" in my fuel system was the upper portion of the fuel pump.

I figured this out by using a laser-aimed, instant reading, infrared temperature sensor gun ($30 at Sears, fun toy) to check every section of my fuel system. If I didn't have the heat situation under control this is the spot in my system were the fuel would be most likely to vaporize. This makes sense as the Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer fuel pump is built to act like an in-tank pump: it's constructed with a small fuel pump submerged inside a larger aluminum housing that's flooded with fuel and the constant circulation of the flood fuel is used to carry away the heat generated by the pump motor pressurizing the fuel, just like an in-tank pump.

So with my LT-R450 pump operating like an in-tank pump and my fuel cooler efficiently dumping off the heat into the intake airflow of the K&N air filter, the whole thing works least as well as a "return to fuel tank" system or a true "in tank" system would and I end up with a fuel system that operates at just over ambient air temperatures. So far so good.

This simple suggestion wouldn't have gotten so convoluted and lengthy if I hadn't had people telling me that my system wouldn't work in spite of the fact that I rode it a couple thousand miles this summer in all sorts of heat and traffic conditions (and even here in Spokane we hit 100 degrees a couple of times this summer).

[Jiggles]

Thanks Greg. We now have an alternate, confirmed to work, method to drilling into the tank for non-CA model Ninja 250's.

Originally Posted by greg737

I figured this out by using a laser-aimed, instant reading, infrared temperature sensor gun ($30 at Sears, fun toy) to check every section of my fuel system.

Greg, I hate you so much because I now HAVE to buy this.

[n4mwd]

Greg, usually you can figure these things out on your own, but in this case, I guess not. Perhaps I didn't explain it well. I will try again.

The tank is not totally sealed and gas can evaporate from it. As the gas evaporates, it keeps the liquid portion of gas from going above the boiling point of the fuel.

Evaporating liquids cool. Its basic physics. Wet your hand and hold it in front of a fan. Does it feel cooler?

So if your bike is parked in the 130F desert, the liquid gas will never rise above the evaporation point. The vapor portion does rise above the evaporation point, but we don't care about that. Therefore, you can use the liquid fuel in the tank to keep the recirculated fuel below the evaporation point.

As far as I know, every car manufacturer uses tank recirculation. Many have the fuel pump right inside the tank as well.

But just recirculating the hot fuel inside a closed loop of tubing just won't cut it in a hot climate. The cooling fins may help some, but may actually make things worse if the outside air temps get too high.

I don't have the ecotrons kit, so I'm just guessing, but based on their website, it looks like they have the pressure regulator in the circuit prior to the injectors. If that is true, then that would be a problem too. The pressure regulator needs to be at the end of the injector rails to minimize the possibility of a gas bubble forming there.

But its your bike Greg, build it however you want. Your cooling coils will probably work just fine up there in Washington state. If I ever convert my bike, I will do it correctly so that it works in all climates.

[greg737]

Here's a question for you: What's that big aluminum thingy with all those fins up in the front of my car called? Could it be a radiator? What does it do and how does it do it? Does it depend on evaporation to get rid of heat?

I'm standing by for your explaination of how a car's radiator manages to get rid of heat without using evaporation.

(here's the catch: if you can explain my car's radiator then you do actually understand my fuel cooler setup.)



Or, in the absense of a logical explaination of how a radiator works let me ask you another question: What do you folks way down there in Palm Beach, oh-so-hot-you-northerners-couldn't-possibly-understand, Florida use on your cars instead of radiators?

I ask this because you're telling me (over and over again) that a radiator couldn't function in the "real" heat of a serious environment like Florida. And, yes, it is the same thing. Both the car's radiator and a fuel cooler are using the same principles to dump heat: 1. the high conductivity of aluminum and copper, 2. maximizing surface area with lots of fins, and 3. airflow over the radiator to carry away the heat.

(and I do apologize to the forum community, I'd planned to let it end with my last post but I've been given no choice but to continue.)

[setasai]

Originally Posted by greg737

Sorry Brian, I'm the guilty party. I was just trying to put forward a fuel system configuration option for those who are doing the install on a non-California old-gen EX-250.

This simple suggestion wouldn't have gotten so convoluted and lengthy if I hadn't had people telling me that my system wouldn't work in spite of the fact that I rode it a couple thousand miles this summer in all sorts of heat and traffic conditions (and even here in Spokane we hit 100 degrees a couple of times this summer).

Haha, Greg no worries. I appreciate you sharing your expertise.

100deg... sounds pretty hot to me! I bet it gets hotter with the tank in the sun too... hmmm lemme think what this information supports... oh right, it works in the heat... almost forgot what all this bickering was about.

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Greg, I hate you so much because I now HAVE to buy this.

Dude you buy everything you see that you dont have. Next time I come across a cool gadget/tool that i've been wanting to play with i'll just casually send you a subliminal message to buy it.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If I ever convert my bike, I will do it correctly so that it works in all climates.

If you know the correct way to set this up please help us make it better. I thought we're supposed to be supporting each other in this hobby. Quit holding back and give us the proper setup/solution.




Back on topic... anybody else change their mind and wants to buy one with us? We still need atleast 1 more to get that added 5% discount. That's money we can use to get the welding done.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by setasai

Dude you buy everything you see that you dont have. Next time I come across a cool gadget/tool that i've been wanting to play with i'll just casually send you a subliminal message to buy it.

Honestly, just tell me you found something cool that you want to play with, chances are I'll want it too.

Originally Posted by setasai

Back on topic... anybody else change their mind and wants to buy one with us? We still need atleast 1 more to get that added 5% discount. That's money we can use to get the welding done.

I'm also going to ask them if we can get 25% off for more orders

[FrugalNinja250]

Just wanted to add, the cooler setup that Greg uses works well since the heat from the fuel is rejected to the active air stream flowing through it into the carbs. That's an effective though unorthodox solution, a bit of elegant engineering that I admire.

The only reason I'm not on the buy list for this right now is that I'm not convinced that there's enough overhead in my electrical system to cover both the 35W this system draws and the power my electric gloves draw in the winter, despite having converted most of my lighting over to LED, particularly at the lower RPMs I frequently find myself running at in my day to day commuting.

Were I to do this conversion I'd likely convert to a CA tank, keep the fuel cooler design like Greg's done, and attempt to keep the stock airbox because of the noise reduction and heavy water inundation handling abilities it has over aftermarket pods.

I wonder if there's some way for me to rewind the alternator in my pregen to get more power?

And n4mwd, was it really necessary to adopt a condescending and, frankly, insulting tone? And, regarding your comment about evaporating fuel keeping the fuel cool in the tank, that only works for the first few seconds to minutes until the vapor saturation point is reached in the air that's inside the tank. The vapor in the tank cannot escape from the tank in any meaningful quantities because of the design of the cap vent system. I took a cap apart, it has over 50 parts, many of which are designed to severely restrict the flow of vapor from the tank. Once the tank air is saturated the evaporation stops and any cooling effect from that evaporation stops as well. For all intents and purposes, fuel evaporative cooling in the tank is trivial, at best.

You can do this experiment at home very easily. Get two bowls, a disposable plastic lid, and two thermometers. Put an equal amount of a fluid of your choice in each bowl, it can be water, it can be gasoline, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this experiment. Now, set one thermometer in one bowl, and take the disposable plastic lid and poke the other thermometer through it. Install it on the second bowl such that there's no air leakage. Set the bowls somewhere and see which one's temperature rises fastest. My money is that it will rise fastest in the covered one.

Edit to add info on the non-CA cap venting design:

http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic...=801040#801040

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

Here's a question for you: What's that big aluminum thingy with all those fins up in the front of my car called? Could it be a radiator? What does it do and how does it do it? Does it depend on evaporation to get rid of heat?

I'm standing by for your explaination of how a car's radiator manages to get rid of heat without using evaporation.

Honestly Greg, I'm starting to think you are actually serious about what you are saying and that's scaring me.

So you have an engine that needs to keep coolant at 190F. And you use a radiator to bleed off heat to a 100F OAT. What's the problem with that? Since you aren't trying to use the radiator to cool below 100F (or OAT in this example), I don't see how your example is relevant.

But as to the aluminum thingy with fins, at first I thought you were talking about the car's A/C condenser coils. Now there is a better example.

Although it is a closed system, the freon in the loop is purposely allowed to evaporate and is then re-condensed by the compressor forcing gas into the condenser coils. So inside the car we have the evaporator coils. Here the freon evaporates and cools the coils in the process and subsequently the interior air. Outside, the compressor takes the evaporated freon and squeezes it back into a liquid. Heat is given off by the compression of the freon as it turns back into a liquid. Thus the little aluminum thingy is used to bleed the heat off to OAT.

Cutting to the chase, your petcock mod would be better than the fins for warmer climates. In your petcock mod, it doesn't look like the fuel actually returns to the tank, but the petcock should still be able to reasonably cool it since its directly attached to the tank.

The best solution is to return it to the tank. If the petcock can't be modified to return fuel back to the tank via the vacuum port, then a new petcock will have to be made. This can be done by making a plate that will mate to the petcock bolts and solder two tubes through it. One is supply, the other is return. Then use an inline petcock to shut the fuel off when necessary.

The ecotron guy said something about drilling a hole in the tank, but I am not thrilled with that idea either because it means you can't go back.

Not every redneck knows how A/C systems work, but this one does.

[greg737]

It's like you're a Troll and you're doing this on purpose. I know I've read posts from you in the past that made sense, but now it's like some crazy person has gotten your log-in password.

So I try to get you to talk about (describe) a radiator which is a liquid filled system just like my fuel cooler and instead you go off on a rant about an Air Conditioning system which has nothing in common with either of them, AC is a gas filled system . You went totally off-subject.

But before you went completely off-subject you tossed out this pearl of wisdom:

So you have an engine that needs to keep coolant at 190F. And you use a radiator to bleed off heat to a 100F OAT. What's the problem with that? Since you aren't trying to use the radiator to cool below 100F (or OAT in this example), I don't see how your example is relevant.

WTH is this supposed to mean? Lately you're specializing in not making any sense at all while acting like you're making sense.

Then you give us this:

Although it is a closed system, the freon in the loop is purposely allowed to evaporate and is then re-condensed by the compressor forcing gas into the condenser coils.

Okay, How does the compression and condensing of a Freon-type gas apply to an (essentially) no-pressure, liquid-filled cooling loop? Could you possibly have come up with a less applicable comparison? The gas in an AC system is compressed and condensed to attain a temporary liquid state and then it's allowed to expand right back to a gaseous state to create a cooling effect. While the physics are related to evaporation, it's a much more mechanically controlled and rapid event than the evaporation you're refering to.

The evaporative effect you're trying (unsuccessfully) to apply to a return fuel loop is a simple atmospheric transition from a liquid state to a gaseous state and that does not happen in an AC system. Air conditioning is achieved through a carefully controlled series of pressure changes that can only be brought about by using a mechanical compressor to apply high pressure to force the gas into a liquid state. Obviously there are no compressors or condensor coils on either an automobile radiator or on a fuel cooler (because there's no gas involved, only liquids).

There is no useful comparison that can be made between an air conditioning system and a cooling loop (like a car radiator or a fuel cooler). They are two totally different things, with totally different purposes.

What is it with you and the word "evaporation" anyway? It's like you're in a contest to see how many ways you can misapply the concept.

You really should stop posting on this thread. I mean, you do realize that there are lots of other forum members reading these posts? Several others have also politely tried to point out that you're very wrong about cooling theory, but you've either ignored them or you're not reading their posts. You're writing crazy stuff and forcing us to re-form our opinion of you. You're making a bit of a spectacle of yourself. If you want to retain any credibility on this forum, then stop it with the "evaporation" stuff now.

[Felipe the Ant]

Greg is right, stop arguing. The fuel doesn't need to be below 100f, a good cooler will cool the fuel pretty close to ambient temps which is low enough to not boil. You'd die before your fuel boils from high ambients.

If you're looking for performance though you may want to run it to the tank. I like the custom part in the petcock hole idea. (that's a really odd thing to hear now that I think of it...)

[greg737]

Adam, I don't understand this:

If you're looking for performance though you may want to run it to the tank.

How would any particular method of cooling the excess fuel output from the fuel pump affect overall performance?

[Felipe the Ant]

Oh, right. It's after the rail. That was just something I was thinking about as I was typing. You'd probably benefit from not having it heat the air going in the intake though, but that could be negligible

[setasai]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Just wanted to add, the cooler setup that Greg uses works well since the heat from the fuel is rejected to the active air stream flowing through it into the carbs. That's an effective though unorthodox solution, a bit of elegant engineering that I admire.

Totally, we have some amazing DIYer's here willing to take the plunge and try something unknown. I think this is one of the best parts of this forum. Ingenuity!

The only reason I'm not on the buy list for this right now is that I'm not convinced that there's enough overhead in my electrical system to cover both the 35W this system draws and the power my electric gloves draw in the winter, despite having converted most of my lighting over to LED, particularly at the lower RPMs I frequently find myself running at in my day to day commuting.

That's totally understandable. Hahaha, nobody's forcing this conversion down your neck. Maybe later on you'll find a solution and at the very least you'll have some of us to help with the install.

Were I to do this conversion I'd likely convert to a CA tank, keep the fuel cooler design like Greg's done, and attempt to keep the stock airbox because of the noise reduction and heavy water inundation handling abilities it has over aftermarket pods.

Honestly, this is what I plan on doing. I had a choice to spend $500 on an exhaust, jet kit, pod filter but I decided to go the EFI route instead. It's different but I dont hate the stock exhaust, airbox, or the 250 power level. I actually only want the benefits of EFI... especially since its self tunable, I can add those anytime I want.

I wonder if there's some way for me to rewind the alternator in my pregen to get more power?

Not sure how that would work. Have you tallied up all the power consumption parts of the bike to see how much you have left? So far I have my GPS and heated grips drawing power. I cant imagine gloves changing it that drastically.

[Jiggles]

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable

Hahahahahaha that's ridiculous. We can barely get 5 and you got an inquiry for 10! Meh oh wells. No harm in trying. Come on community. Lets try something drastic.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by setasai

Hahahahahaha that's ridiculous. We can barely get 5 and you got an inquiry for 10! Meh oh wells. No harm in trying. Come on community. Lets try something drastic.

Hey man, theres 8 people on the maybe list! Maybe 5% will change their minds?

[massacremasses]

id prolly do it im just lazy and dont want to install it.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

id prolly do it im just lazy and dont want to install it.

Haha, if you're lazy to install this... think about how you'll instead need to adjust the carbs by hand each time you decide to change something or ride up to the mountains.

I was actually considering that if I finished installing this, i'd ride down to LA and also ride up to norcal to help with the install. Good time to test different conditions and get a great ride out of it as well.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by greg737

It's like you're a Troll and you're doing this on purpose. I know I've read posts from you in the past that made sense, but now it's like some crazy person has gotten your log-in password.

Greg, calling me names is not going to change the laws of physics. I am going to stop posting here because what I have posted seems to have gone over everyone's head. All I can say is try it and see. All I was trying to do was to stop people from making a mistake. Maybe ask yourself why car manufacturers don't use your method. Its simpler and cheaper than running lines all the way back to the tank. But they don't.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Greg, calling me names is not going to change the laws of physics. I am going to stop posting here because what I have posted seems to have gone over everyone's head. All I can say is try it and see. All I was trying to do was to stop people from making a mistake. Maybe ask yourself why car manufacturers don't use your method. Its simpler and cheaper than running lines all the way back to the tank. But they don't.

Greg's setup is a good implementation if you are worried about the fuel heating up. Personally, I am not that worried about it but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Car maunfactures don't use fuel coolers because they moved the fuel pump to inside the tank, it is easier to relocate the component than to add in extra hardware. The thermal mass of the fuel tank and fuel will effectively negate the energy input of the pump. Plus the tank will have convection around to be cooled to at least ambient.

When cars had fuel vapor lock problems it was because fuel pumps were mounted on the engine block and the heat had nowhere to go. You may notice that vapor lock is not a common problem in modern cars.

Can you both please just drop this discussion or move it someplace else as you are dragging this thread off topic.

[Felipe the Ant]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable

I'd do it if I had the money to just spend on this. But for now my carbs are working great

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable

Count me in when its $450.

[Fly'in Ninja]

put me on the maybe list, thanks

[Jiggles]

Ok guys, the Group Buy will end on January 31st and orders will be submitted on February 1st. Any "Maybes" will be able to opt into the group buy at that time if they want to.

[rusninja]

@Jiggles are you going to turbo your bike ;]?

[Jiggles]

It's a possibility, are you going to put EFI on your.... oh nevermind

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

UPDATE: 10 buyers = 25% off!!!
Price with 25% off will be $450 + shipping and tax where applicable

Just found this recuiting post. To show my appreciation and promote, here is the deal: 25% off for the first 5 kits GB!
Deal ends by Christmas Eve!
Matt from Ecotrons

[Mad-B-Man]

I might be interested. I'm a bit concerned about installing all this though, since I'm not familiar with fuel injection system. I'm a little confused about the fuel return line, with a CA tank, which port do you re-purpose for this? I'll also need to find someone to weld the sensor bung for me. A few of you guys are in the bay area though, so maybe a group install? I probably will have to ride down to the south bay from Daly City though, since that seems to be where most of you are located.

let me do a little more research, as well as sell off some stuff (If I am getting this kit, I'm debating whether I should do it on the stock exhaust system or the muzzy system. If stock, I'll probably just sell the muzzy. Or maybe buy extra bungs do it on both). I'll let you guys know before the new deadline, though I suppose you guys already have enough to get 25% off now, since you do have 5 people if you include lgk.

[rusninja]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

It's a possibility, are you going to put EFI on your.... oh nevermind

oh you evil

[ecotrons]

With the new tank valve to replace the petcock, no need to use any other hole on the fuel tank. It is a simple swap of petcock.
This has been added to Forbitel's post. Sounds like a lot of guys still don't know it yet.


Tank switch 01.jpg Tank switch 02.jpg

[EMSRacer07]

Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5.@EMSRacer07
6.
7.
8.
9.
10. @lgk

Ill be ur 5th guy

Just found this recuiting post. To show my appreciation and promote, here is the deal: 25% off for the first 5 kits GB!
Deal ends by Christmas Eve!
Matt from Ecotrons

And ill def get this before christmas eve and for u guys wondering im from ninja250.org. thanks for the guy posting over there.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Mad-B-Man

I might be interested. I'm a bit concerned about installing all this though, since I'm not familiar with fuel injection system. I'm a little confused about the fuel return line, with a CA tank, which port do you re-purpose for this? I'll also need to find someone to weld the sensor bung for me. A few of you guys are in the bay area though, so maybe a group install? I probably will have to ride down to the south bay from Daly City though, since that seems to be where most of you are located.

let me do a little more research, as well as sell off some stuff (If I am getting this kit, I'm debating whether I should do it on the stock exhaust system or the muzzy system. If stock, I'll probably just sell the muzzy. Or maybe buy extra bungs do it on both). I'll let you guys know before the new deadline, though I suppose you guys already have enough to get 25% off now, since you do have 5 people if you include lgk.

It's a plug and play system. Since you have a CA tank, you just plug the fuel return line straight into one of the emission holes in the tank. If you want to come down and get some help @setasai and I would be glad to help you out

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Just found this recuiting post. To show my appreciation and promote, here is the deal: 25% off for the first 5 kits GB!
Deal ends by Christmas Eve!
Matt from Ecotrons

If the first 5 are 25% off, then what does everyone else get?

[Daves2JZ]

Let's up the antie even more and suggest 30% if we can do 10 by Christmass!!!!!

I'm in it to win it!!

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

If the first 5 are 25% off, then what does everyone else get?

This is one-time deal. I need some cash to pay holiday bills. After Christmas, deals back to 20% for 5 kits, or maybe even worse deals.
I want to promote the first GB! There are many guys are still standing by.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

This is one-time deal. I need some cash to pay holiday bills. After Christmas, deals back to 20% for 5 kits, or maybe even worse deals.
I want to promote the first GB! There are many guys are still standing by.

Sounds good! We've got the first five already up there.
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07

So I guess we will keep the GB open until the 24th and if 5 more people want to hop in (10 altogether) then all 10 will get 25% off right?



Paging all maybes! Now is your chance, are you in or out?

1. @lgk
2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will."
3. @saxnbass (if local mechanic will install it; I'm afraid of screwing up doing it myself) "Cmon you can do it!"
4. @massacremasses (if someone else will do it for him)
5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike)
6. @Felipe the Ant (Scrounging up some bank)
7. @randomwalk101
8. @n4mwd
9. @Fly'in Ninja

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

So I guess we will keep the GB open until the 24th and if 5 more people want to hop in (10 altogether) then all 10 will get 25% off right?

Correct, 25% is the limit. Can not do more.

[lgk]

Im in