Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[Ninja_Moose]

So everyone after EMSRacer07 that orders before christmas gets 20% off?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

With the new tank valve to replace the petcock, no need to use any other hole on the fuel tank. It is a simple swap of petcock.
This has been added to Forbitel's post. Sounds like a lot of guys still don't know it yet.

YES! Now that is what I'm talking about!

I assume that this is a custom part. The only thing I would suggest is to have a screen on the fuel pickup. I can't see one in the photo. In a perfect world, no gas station would EVER do something as mean as pump little rocks into your tank, but unfortunately it happens. If they are small enough to flow down the tube, they'll be caught by the filter. No problem. The problem is when they are just the right size to get stuck in there. Think kidney stone.

PS - Matt, does this come with the group buy kit? Also, do we get the new controller with the harness and built in ECU? Your web site wasn't clear on that.

[setasai]

Awesome. Lets do this!

I think what Matt means is once we hit the 25% limit... everybody that joins the GB will get 25% no more but if you wait till after xmas... it goes back to the 20%.

[EMSRacer07]

so if the GB ends christmas eve when would everything get shipped out?

[justinswidebody]

Sign Me Up!!! 1. @Jiggles 2. @setasai 3. @Daves2JZ 4. @flynjay 5. @EMSRacer07 6.justinswidebody 7. 8. 9. 10. @lgk

Im in. How much to ship to 34481?

[Jiggles]

updated list

1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07

6. @lgk
7. @justinswidebody
8.
9.
10.

[ecotrons]

Somebody asked whether the system runs with Power Commander.
Yes!
but not a must. If you have one already. use it. If not, buying one is extra cost.
Power commander is used for OEM ECUs which you don't have access to ECU data.
Obviously you can change our ECU data with our software.
But nevertheless, power commander has simpler user interface and a lot of people are familiar with it.
thx, Matt

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by justinswidebody

Sign Me Up!!! 1. @Jiggles 2. @setasai 3. @Daves2JZ 4. @flynjay 5. @EMSRacer07 6.justinswidebody 7. 8. 9. 10. @lgk

Im in. How much to ship to 34481?

Shipping to US address: $30 per kit. $50 international.

Matt

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

YES! Now that is what I'm talking about!

I assume that this is a custom part. The only thing I would suggest is to have a screen on the fuel pickup. I can't see one in the photo. In a perfect world, no gas station would EVER do something as mean as pump little rocks into your tank, but unfortunately it happens. If they are small enough to flow down the tube, they'll be caught by the filter. No problem. The problem is when they are just the right size to get stuck in there. Think kidney stone.

PS - Matt, does this come with the group buy kit? Also, do we get the new controller with the harness and built in ECU? Your web site wasn't clear on that.

You can reuse the stock screen for the fuel pickup. Yes, it is good practice to have it, though you will have an external feul filter from us. Double filtering is better.
Yes, this tank valve and the new harness will come w/ the kit! our website is not updated yet.
The new ECU has been used for all new customers. We do not make old fuel control only ECUs any more.

thx, Matt

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

You can reuse the stock screen for the fuel pickup. Yes, it is good practice to have it, though you will have an external feul filter from us. Double filtering is better.
Yes, this tank valve and the new harness will come w/ the kit! our website is not updated yet.
The new ECU has been used for all new customers. We do not make old fuel control only ECUs any more.

thx, Matt

Matt,

I'm really starting to get interested. A few more questions if you don't mind.

1. What's that little screw between the new intake manifolds? Does it require "syncing" like we do for the carbs?

2. What is the fuel economy like on a pregen with this FI system? (As compared to the carbed version of the same bike.)

3. How does the performance compare with the carbed bike?

4. It comes with the software, but does that mean that the performance and fuel economy are programmable?

5. How did you make that stuff? Do you have molds or something for the manifolds and fuel return petcock?

6. When we pay for our kit, do we call you up individually and say its for the group buy and pay $450 individually with a CR card? If not, how?

7. What would we use the choke cable for after converting to FI? Is it possible to use it as a High Performance/High Fuel Economy switch? Is there a way to get that selection into the ECU on the fly?

8. Lastly, it fits the pregen, right?

PS- one more:

9. Can the O2 sensor "bungs" be JB-Welded on, or do they have to be actually welded?

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt,

I'm really starting to get interested. A few more questions if you don't mind.

1. What's that little screw between the new intake manifolds? Does it require "syncing" like we do for the carbs?
I believe those are the idle screws to adjust idle rpms.

2. What is the fuel economy like on a pregen with this FI system? (As compared to the carbed version of the same bike.)
It would depend on your throttle hand but basically when your carbs are tuned rich for the particular weather condition, you'd be saving gas because the EFI would tune itself and use less gas. Dont expect an amazing increase. It's not magic.

3. How does the performance compare with the carbed bike?
It should be more responsive across the board and overall peppier. Basically it's the effect of having perfect fuel-to-air ratios at all times.

4. It comes with the software, but does that mean that the performance and fuel economy are programmable?
Not sure if this question makes sense. It's not like all of the sudden you can say.. hey run in a way so that I can get 100mpg. Just saying. But I believe it has been mentioned that if you are knowledgable, you can adjust it.

5. How did you make that stuff? Do you have molds or something for the manifolds and fuel return petcock?
Looks CNCed to me.

6. When we pay for our kit, do we call you up individually and say its for the group buy and pay $450 individually with a CR card? If not, how?
@Jiggles said that Matt will most likely contact us with our information from this thread and then we go from there. Good question though. More elaboration would be fantastic.

7. What would we use the choke cable for after converting to FI? Is it possible to use it as a High Performance/High Fuel Economy switch? Is there a way to get that selection into the ECU on the fly?
From what I remember, there is an included switch for economy mode which allows the EFI to self-tune and then a performance mode that runs a little richer. I also remember reading that in performance mode, the EFI will not be autotuning so adequate time must be spent in economy mode first. Choke cable is mechanical so it would most likely be rendered useless.

8. Lastly, it fits the pregen, right?
Answered before. Yes, but you need to specify because the CDI wiring harness is a little different than the NewGens.

PS- one more:

9. Can the O2 sensor "bungs" be JB-Welded on, or do they have to be actually welded?
My guess... NO on the JB weld. That stuff would more than likely just melt.

Good questions. If I messed up on something, Matt @ecotrons will fill in the blanks I'm sure.

[EMSRacer07]

8. Lastly, it fits the pregen, right?
Answered before. Yes, but you need to specify because the CDI wiring harness is a little different than the NewGens

what does that mean for the CDI wiring harness? can anyone clarify what will be different for the pregen ninjas? thanks

[greg737]

Brian, I think you missed what he was asking about on #1.

1. What's that little screw between the new intake manifolds? Does it require "syncing" like we do for the carbs?

He was refering to the fact that the basic Ecotrons kit comes with two "single" throttlebodies that are mated together. And yes there's a little screw-and-spring assembly that allows the left-hand throttlebody to be actuated by the right-hand throttlebody (which is in turn actuated by you via the throttle cables).

The answer to #1 would be a "yes" the throttlebodies need to be synchronized as best you can because if they weren't you'd end up with an imbalance situation between the two cylinders. The effect on the Ecotrons kit would, however, be different than with badly synchronized carbs. On the Ecotrons kit with it's ability to tune the two cylinders individually you'd end up with two perfectly tuned cylinders but they'd be producing different amounts of horsepower for any given throttle position.

In other words: if the two throttlebodies weren't perfectly synchronized then the cylinder that was "more closed" than the other would always be working with slightly less O2 to mix with fuel to achieve whatever air/fuel ratio the ECU is commanding and would end up being slightly underpowered when compared to the other cylinder which would be doing more work because it would be slightly "more open" and would have more O2 to mix with fuel to achieve whatever air/fuel ratio is being commanded by the ECU.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

what does that mean for the CDI wiring harness? can anyone clarify what will be different for the pregen ninjas? thanks

Take a look at Forbitel's install thread.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...&postcount=211

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt,
6. When we pay for our kit, do we call you up individually and say its for the group buy and pay $450 individually with a CR card? If not, how?

I believe @Jiggles needs to send a message / email that has the e-mail addresses of those interested and Matt will send invoices out.

Once payment has been received, Matt will get the kits mailed out.

Matt stated that the first five get the %25 off before Christmas, I don't know about the people after that.

A little clarification would be great.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Correct, 25% is the limit. Can not do more.

Originally Posted by greg737

Brian, I think you missed what he was asking about on #1.

Ohhhh that one. Whoops... good catch. Thx for clarifying.

[EMSRacer07]

Take a look at Forbitel's install thread.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...&postcount=211

Ok thanks for the clarification. ok so its ok then great thank you

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by flynjay

I believe @Jiggles needs to send a message / email that has the e-mail addresses of those interested and Matt will send invoices out.

Once payment has been received, Matt will get the kits mailed out.

Matt stated that the first five get the %25 off before Christmas, I don't know about the people after that.

A little clarification would be great.

Please enlist yourself to Jiggles (just giving your Email addr. for now), who is THE recruiter, and
THANKS, Jiggles!

No limit of the group size ( >= 5).
I will send an electronic invoice to each of the enlisted via Email. $450+$30(shipping). You will pay by CR card. After I get more than 5 payments, I will start to ship.
After Christmas Eve, the deal is over.

And thanks, setasai, Greg737, and flynjay; for answering questions.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Matt,

1. What's that little screw between the new intake manifolds? Does it require "syncing" like we do for the carbs?

Greg is correct on this!

Just to let everybody know: the thorttle bodies come as pre-sync-ed. Do NOT try to re-adjust it, and even the idle screws are pre-adjusted; unless you notice some significant un-balancing issue. In that case, let me know, if you are not sure how to adjust it.

[randomwalk101]

On second thought, I'm just too lazy to swap out a perfectly working bike so I'm staying out. Goodluck guys.

[n4mwd]

Thanks, Brian, Greg, and Matt. A few clarifications if you don't mind....

Originally Posted by setasai

2. What is the fuel economy like on a pregen with this FI system? (As compared to the carbed version of the same bike.)
It would depend on your throttle hand but basically when your carbs are tuned rich for the particular weather condition, you'd be saving gas because the EFI would tune itself and use less gas. Dont expect an amazing increase. It's not magic.
3. How does the performance compare with the carbed bike?
It should be more responsive across the board and overall peppier. Basically it's the effect of having perfect fuel-to-air ratios at all times.

When I first got my pregen, it had both high fuel economy (~70 mpg) and high performance. Now there is something wrong with it and I suspect the carbs even though its running OK right now. I'm only getting 56 mpg.

So to the point, I am asking if I will see 70 mpg again and at least the performance I have now if I switch to PFI. I would really like Matt to answer this one.

PS - A friend also has a pregen and his still gets 70 mpg... and we ride together a lot.

5. How did you make that stuff? Do you have molds or something for the manifolds and fuel return petcock?
Looks CNCed to me.

I was thinking die cast, but only Matt can answer this one.

9. Can the O2 sensor "bungs" be JB-Welded on, or do they have to be actually welded?
My guess... NO on the JB weld. That stuff would more than likely just melt.

Standard JB-Weld works up to 600F. Not sure what the pipes get up to though. My leg can testify that its pretty hot though. I'm going riding today and I should be able to measure it with my thermometer.

But there is also the vibration issue and JB-Weld might not be adequate.

Does anyone know what the pipes are made of? If it must be welded, its important to know if we are dealing with plain steel or stainless. Either way, it will have to be re-chromed.

Although I have the ability to weld it myself, that may not be true of everyone in the group. JB-Weld would be a good option if it will work.

The same question applies to brazing and silver soldering. These may be something that some people can do if they can't do actual welding. I can say for a fact that lead soldering will be no better than JB-Weld in this situation.

[n4mwd]

More questions about the O2 sensor.

See attached drawing.

1. Is the sensor location critical, or can it go anywhere? Is there a preferred location A, B, C, D or elsewhere?

2. Do the O2 sensors have to be the exact same distance from the heads, or can they vary by an inch or two (for staggering purposes)?

3. Does anybody know if the crossover tube on the pregen actually passes exhaust gas or if its just structural? If it does connect the two, do we really need two O2 sensors?

[setasai]

I just remembered something. In the past when riders would swap their CDI with the sportisi BRT CDI, they would need to hotwire the kickstand switch.

@ecotrons, does the EFI-ECU change anything as far as any of the switches?

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Please enlist yourself to Jiggles (just giving your Email addr. for now), who is THE recruiter, and
THANKS, Jiggles!

No limit of the group size ( >= 5).
I will send an electronic invoice to each of the enlisted via Email. $450+$30(shipping). You will pay by CR card. After I get more than 5 payments, I will start to ship.
After Christmas Eve, the deal is over.

And thanks, setasai, Greg737, and flynjay; for answering questions.

Great! So everybody that want's in on this needs to send contact info to @Jiggles so invoices can be sent out.

Let's get to modding!

[n4mwd]

I measured the temperature of the exhaust manifold pipe after a ride today. I'm reading about 200F. Since JB-Weld works up to 600F, I think its safe in that respect.

However, this still does not mean it can be used to attach the bungs as there are other factors to consider.

I also measured the crossover tube and it was also 200F. This could possibly indicate that it passes exhaust gasses. ???

[Jack Frost]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I measured the temperature of the exhaust manifold pipe after a ride today. I'm reading about 200F. Since JB-Weld works up to 600F, I think its safe in that respect.

However, this still does not mean it can be used to attach the bungs as there are other factors to consider.

I also measured the crossover tube and it was also 200F. This could possibly indicate that it passes exhaust gasses. ???

JB weld WILL NOT WORK. there is no way the readings you took were accurate. the exhaust temps when riding and the motor is turning 8K RPMs+ should be in the 750*-1100* range

I mean if you want to go right ahead and try, but i will warn you the fumes from burning JB Weld (an epoxy) is highly noxious and will make you sick. and i'd hate to see you lose your O2 sensors while riding..... they can't be cheap to replace, it can't cost 20-30 bux to get an exhaust shop to weld the bungs in for you, especially if you take the pipes to them.....

[Felipe the Ant]

Lol don't JB weld your exhaust. Do it right and do it once. It's not that expensive

[n4mwd]

I measured after the bike was switched off so that is where I think I screwed up. It was only a minute, but I think it was long enough to give incorrect readings.

Also, I measured from the radiator down and not up by the ports. Its usually cooler there.

I'm going to agree that JB-Weld is a bad idea.

If the temps do get >1000F, then brazing will not work either. Looks like I'll need to get my welding torch out.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Thanks, Brian, Greg, and Matt. A few clarifications if you don't mind....

When I first got my pregen, it had both high fuel economy (~70 mpg) and high performance. Now there is something wrong with it and I suspect the carbs even though its running OK right now. I'm only getting 56 mpg.

So to the point, I am asking if I will see 70 mpg again and at least the performance I have now if I switch to PFI. I would really like Matt to answer this one.

PS - A friend also has a pregen and his still gets 70 mpg... and we ride together a lot.
.

The EFI only tunes the AFR to stoic (most conditions), so to speak. The fuel economy is primarily determined by your engine. EFI has better FE than carbs, mainly because of more precise controls of AFR, where carbs need to run more or less rich under many conditions. With that been said, some carbs may run lean and show some better economy than others, but have other issues like rough idle, difficult to start, lack of power (accelerations). I can not assure your FE will be back to 70mpg. I can only say it will be better than what you have now. If your engine runs rich now because of carb related issues, then yes, EFI will fix that. But if your engine is somehow worn, like piston ring worn, and having big blowby, then EFI can not help on that. After-all, it's NOT MAGIC.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I was thinking die cast, but only Matt can answer this one..

Throttle bodies are die casted, they come as singles, and we link them together with customer parts, and the customer parts are CNC-ed.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Standard JB-Weld works up to 600F. Not sure what the pipes get up to though. My leg can testify that its pretty hot though. I'm going riding today and I should be able to measure it with my thermometer.

But there is also the vibration issue and JB-Weld might not be adequate.

Does anyone know what the pipes are made of? If it must be welded, its important to know if we are dealing with plain steel or stainless. Either way, it will have to be re-chromed.

Although I have the ability to weld it myself, that may not be true of everyone in the group. JB-Weld would be a good option if it will work.

The same question applies to brazing and silver soldering. These may be something that some people can do if they can't do actual welding. I can say for a fact that lead soldering will be no better than JB-Weld in this situation.

Jack Frost is CORRECT: Exhaust temp can be 600-1100F, O2 sensors work the best at ~900F. No JB-weld.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

More questions about the O2 sensor.

See attached drawing.

1. Is the sensor location critical, or can it go anywhere? Is there a preferred location A, B, C, D or elsewhere?

2. Do the O2 sensors have to be the exact same distance from the heads, or can they vary by an inch or two (for staggering purposes)?

3. Does anybody know if the crossover tube on the pregen actually passes exhaust gas or if its just structural? If it does connect the two, do we really need two O2 sensors?

This one has been answered before and in the installation manual. ONLY position A is good. (see detailed picturs in the manual).
Yes, both O2 sensors need to be the same distance from the heads. Again, balance requirement.
The crossover, yes, passes exhaust gas.
Yes, you must have 2 O2 sensors, or you get a customer exhaust like Greg has. Or you can run open-loop without O2s.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

This one has been answered before and in the installation manual. ONLY position A is good. (see detailed picturs in the manual).
Yes, both O2 sensors need to be the same distance from the heads. Again, balance requirement.
The crossover, yes, passes exhaust gas.
Yes, you must have 2 O2 sensors, or you get a customer exhaust like Greg has. Or you can run open-loop without O2s.

here is the picture of the best location of O2 sensors (symmetric).
Benefits: 1) close to heads, get most heat from exhuast, so O2 heating duty cycle can be small (save electric power).
2) also because it's close, respond to AFR change faster, and more accurate.
3) safe location, no interference to others.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

here is the picture of the best location of O2 sensors (symmetric).
Benefits: 1) close to heads, get most heat from exhuast, so O2 heating duty cycle can be small (save electric power).
2) also because it's close, respond to AFR change faster, and more accurate.
3) safe location, no interference to others.

Looks like that is also a good location because the downward angle of the pipe makes the sensor mate at the proper angle as well.

I went through your instructions PDF and I was confused by a few things.

1. Coolant to the carbs? I couldn't find that on my bike. Is this something that only newgens have?

2. Throttle cable? Why not just put the mechanism on the right side of the throttle body instead of the left and use the twin cable system that is there now? Is there any way to take parts off the carb and use them on the new throttle body to accomplish this? How do they do it in the UK?

Regarding the earlier discussion of programmable fuel economy, I did a little research and it IS possible, but not with this kit. To do so requires a fly by wire system so that the computer actually controls the throttle position with a servo and not just detects it with a TPS. But I can live with the standard FI system like the kit provides.

Regarding the ECM, does it output data so that the instantaneous fuel burn rate can be read out on the fly (presumably by a laptop)?

PS - Looks like Forbitel has solved the throttle cable issue here.

[n4mwd]

OK Jiggles, count me in.

[Ninja_Moose]

Count me in if we get to 25% off. BTW what happened to the list of names? It is showing up blank for me.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Looks like that is also a good location because the downward angle of the pipe makes the sensor mate at the proper angle as well.

I went through your instructions PDF and I was confused by a few things.

1. Coolant to the carbs? I couldn't find that on my bike. Is this something that only newgens have?
we have it on the pre-gen actually. But yours does not have it. just skip this step. It's not needed for TB anyway.

2. Throttle cable? Why not just put the mechanism on the right side of the throttle body instead of the left and use the twin cable system that is there now? Is there any way to take parts off the carb and use them on the new throttle body to accomplish this? How do they do it in the UK?
Good question. The off-the-shelf TB coming with the flange mount will require you flip the TB to take the carb throttle twin cables; and the injectors will be at the bottom of the TB. To make it sitting on the top, we have to move the throttle cable to the other side. That looks better. But you don't have to. You can leave the injectors at the bottom, as Forbitel does, so you can re-use both cables. FI is running at 43psi, the gravity is not a big deal here. If you want to use both cables, and still have injectors sitting on the top, you will need a longer cable like Ninja 650's .
Forbitel's solution of decel-cable bracket has become the standard for the kit, you will get it included. Thanks to Forbitel!

Regarding the earlier discussion of programmable fuel economy, I did a little research and it IS possible, but not with this kit. To do so requires a fly by wire system so that the computer actually controls the throttle position with a servo and not just detects it with a TPS. But I can live with the standard FI system like the kit provides.
Yes, "drive by wire" TB is a better solution, but more expensive and complicated.
Regarding the ECM, does it output data so that the instantaneous fuel burn rate can be read out on the fly (presumably by a laptop)?
Not yet. but definitely can be made available to laptop readings. We will add it to the software later and update your guys.

PS - Looks like Forbitel has solved the throttle cable issue here.

[flynjay]

Repost this list and add your name to it if you are in. Only add your name if you are 100% positive you want to buy this and have the money for it. Someone dropping out of the Group Buy at a later time will negatively affect everyone else associated with it, think carefully before you say Yes. If you are unsure about whether you want this system add yourself to the maybe list.

Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07
6. @lgk
7. @justinswidebody
8. @n4mwd
9. @Ninja_Moose
10.
Hmm Maybe....
1. @Jiggles (I might buy a second one for my other Ninja)
2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will."
3. @saxnbass (if local mechanic will install it; I'm afraid of screwing up doing it myself) "Cmon you can do it!"
4. @massacremasses (if someone else will do it for him)
5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike)
6. @Felipe_the_Ant (Scrounging up some bank)
7.
8. @n4mwd
9. @Fly'in Ninja
10.

Here is the list as I know it now. My additions are in RED

If you quote it it seems to work just fine. Seems like something is wrong with the "mentions".

[massacremasses]

Ive bit off more than I can chew right now with they body work and paint and everything so im out. To much work :/

[saxnbass]

You'll have to remove me from that maybe list as well. As much as I'd like to do this, I just can't swing it at the moment.

[Jiggles]

i need emails from @n4mwd and @Ninja_Moose

[el250]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

1. Coolant to the carbs? I couldn't find that on my bike. Is this something that only newgens have?
we have it on the pre-gen actually. But yours does not have it. just skip this step. It's not needed for TB anyway.

Carb heating:
None had it in North America, only in UK/Europe, Australia, or Japan spec -F but mostly -H models, as seen in instructions, and any of those as grey market bikes imported elsewhere.

Is the rest of Ecotrons based in Hong Kong or elsewhere that accounts for the high shipping by DHL?