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Old June 18th, 2011, 05:09 PM   #1
CmichRider
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Front brake too sensitive

Hey dudes and dudettes,

My front brake is waaay sensitive, to the point where I'd say I don't even squeeze the lever, mostly just touch it! If I were to grab a handful of brake in an emergency stop, I don't doubt the front would lock up immediately. Is there any way to adjust this so that it is a smooth motion throughout the front brake squeeze?

Also, not sure if this is related or not, but my front forks dive a ton when braking, is that normal?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #2
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The front brake is 70 percent of your braising power. I think it's suppose to be like that
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #3
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is the front brake system stock? How about the lever and brake pads?

diving under heavy braking is common on the pregens. I'm guessing you're a heavier rider?
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Front_suspension_upgrades
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboy View Post
The front brake is 70 percent of your braising power. I think it's suppose to be like that
Ah, it's normal then? I guess I'll just adjust to it. Haha. I only asked this because I'm taking my MSF right now and the Nighthawk I'm using has a completely different feel in every way from the Ninja, I suppose it's just a different bike-different feel?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkim View Post
is the front brake system stock? How about the lever and brake pads?

diving under heavy braking is common on the pregens. I'm guessing you're a heavier rider?
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Front_suspension_upgrades
Front brake system is stock, yes. Lever and brake pads also, as far as I know.

I wouldn't call myself a heavier rider...I'm about 160 pounds. Is it possible the fork oil has something to do with the dive?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #6
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usually, adding some preload spacers will take care of the dive.

do you have a service manual?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 06:38 PM   #7
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I look at the owners manual online, but I don't think that's the same as the service manual, correct?
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Old June 18th, 2011, 07:50 PM   #8
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Service you have to pay for but in msf is where I learnedthe 70 percent thing. But I have never rode on anything else but 2fidy I have been getting use to the brake myself but plan on getting adjustable levers
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Old June 18th, 2011, 09:09 PM   #9
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Yup, the pregens are like that. I took my MSF on a pre-gen and the instructor told me (although you have to use all 4 fingers to brake) to use only 2 because I had a "sports bike" and the rest had small cruisers and those induro bikes.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 05:36 AM   #10
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The Nighthawk feels different because it's got an old fashion drum brake in the front. It's about the only bike left in the world that does! You need to be verrrry smooth with your front brake, and you must train yourself not to grab at it. The "nose dive" under braking is a function of the fact that in order to keep the price of the bike down, Kawasaki didn't spend a lot on the front suspension. The smoother you are with the brakes, the less it will dive, so I just make a game out of stopping with as little dive as possible.

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Old June 24th, 2011, 08:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by CmichRider View Post
Front brake system is stock, yes. Lever and brake pads also, as far as I know.

I wouldn't call myself a heavier rider...I'm about 160 pounds. Is it possible the fork oil has something to do with the dive?

Are you the first owner of your 2000 model? If you aren't the original owner it's possible that the front brake pads have been replaced, and it's highly likely that the pads the prior owner used are EBC pads just because they're available everywere, rather than having to be ordered like other pads.

The EBC pads, part number 129 HH are pretty aggressive, especially in their initial bite. They are a sintered metal pad with high-friction "HH" rating (people replacing brake pads tend to assume that "more is better" in brake pad friction).

At the first touch of brakes equipped with these EBC pads you get quite a bit more stopping power than the stock EX-250 pads. From there to about 70% lever pressure it is a similar feel to the stock brakes, but stronger. At 70% these pads really kick in and want you to stop RIGHT NOW.

Nothing wrong with them really, just a more aggressive pad than the bike came with from the factory.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 08:44 AM   #12
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Use two fingers instead of four...it helps if you are grabbing too much.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 09:34 AM   #13
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I wouldn't call myself a heavier rider...I'm about 160 pounds. Is it possible the fork oil has something to do with the dive?
The source of your dive is a sub-par suspension design.

When Kawasaki was designing the EX-250 they couldn't use great parts all over the bike because it would've ended up costing as much as a 600 and then nobody would buy it.

Thankfully they didn't cut corners on the engine, it's a great design with pretty good quality throughout.

Unfortunately they did cut corners on the suspension. Up front we've got 1960's technology in the form of damper-rod forks and in the rear is a non-adjustable piece of crap shock (the guys at KYB Industries Japan should hang their heads in shame over this one).

The good news is there are easy upgrades for both ends that will give you a great-handling EX-250.

So, to fix your bike's front end: for your 160 pound weight I'd recommend .70 kg/mm or .75 kg/mm Sonic Springs (this replaces the limp-as-a-noodle .44 kg/mm stock springs), 15 weight fork oil and to improve the feel/action you should do the Gold Valve Emulator (GVE) modification. The GVE mod changes the fork from a damper-rod type to (almost) a cartridge type fork.

And even if you're not going to upgrade the rear shock you should at least:

Service the swingarm (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Servicing_the_swingarm)

and do a clean-and-lube job on the UniTrak suspension linkage (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Uni_Tra...ge_Lubrication).

These two items often get ignored completely or defered way too long.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 06:38 PM   #14
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I agree with pretty much everthing Greg said above, with one condition. My opinion of modifying/upgrading any bike for performance is; learn to ride the thing the way it is, first, then you'll know exactly what you actually want to upgrade. I get such a kick out of these guys that buy a 600, perform a couple thousand dollars worth of performace upgrades to it (because it's too slow with only 105 or 110 horsepower) then can't even get out of the parking lot before its obvious to everyone around them that they need to be on a 125 in an MSF class.
Now like I said, I agree with Greg. In my last post I mentioned that the forks dive like they do because they're pretty cheap forks. My last one I kept stock (I gave it to my son last month) and the one before that I put a lot of money into the suspension on (pretty much what Greg mentioned, plus a $500 rear shock). The problem with this is that once you've upgraded the suspension,($700) the tires feel too small and loose, once you've modified bigger wheels and tires onto it ($1000 more) the frame starts to feel like it's not stiff enough. By the time you've bought a custom handmade racing frame, you've got a 250 that cost more than an Italian literbike........
What I have found is; all those upgrades (and all that money!) made the bike much easeir to ride fast, but none of them made the bike any easier to ride. Once you've been riding it for a while, you may decide to upgrade those forks, but for now, it's a pretty well balanced pakage the way it is. Just ride it. A lot.

Have Fun,
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Old June 27th, 2011, 04:50 PM   #15
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Good to know that I'm not imagining things!

I'll have to check the pads sometime to see if they are original or not. I'd hazard a guess that they are though, just from what I know about the bike and the past owner.

It's good to see that I have options if I ever wanted to upgrade the stock suspension. I'd rather not pour money into a near 12 year old budget-cycle though, even though the suspension parts you listed sure do make it tempting. I'll probably ride it as it sits for the rest of the season, which, being in Michigan, is probably the next two weeks .

If I did anything to the suspension, I hear that the ex500 spring is an easy and cheap upgrade, correcto?
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Old June 27th, 2011, 06:17 PM   #16
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if it's 12 years old i'd like to propose an alternative situation...
perhaps your calipers are sticking due to old brake fluid. it happened to me when i got my fzr. basically the way it felt was almost no brake as i smoothly applied the lever, then all of the sudden they would 'break loose' and i would get all the braking power i was applying, basically slamming on the front brakes causing the forks to dive way more than they should. if you squeeze the brake lever as hard as you can when the bike is stopped, does it feel completely smooth? do you hear anything? any creaking?
when was the last time you changed your brake fluid? IIRC they say hydraulic fluid should be changed every 2-3 years to prevent water buildup, but if it sits like that for a while it can deteriorate past the point of just getting water and will damage and gunk up the calipers. if you have spare time / curiosity you may want to take the brake system apart and check your caliper seals and pistons and make sure they aren't filled with gunky crap. at very least take a look at the fluid to make sure its not nasty or filled with water. if you can't tell they make cheap little test strips you can dip in that will tell you if its bad or not
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 06:55 PM   #17
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I will try swapping the fluid, check the calipers and report back. There is sensitive, and there is scary to ride.

We all recommend the 250 as a great and forgiving bike. I can't recommend my pregen as a forgiving bike any more. I am with the OP... it's down right dangerous.
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 09:07 PM   #18
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Something must be wrong. I mean, it wouldn't have been one of Kawasaki's best selling bikes for over 20 years if what you are describing was normal. It sounds like Alex is on to something. I hope the fluid does it for you.

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Old May 15th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #19
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Exclamation revival of old post

i know I Will be checking the caliper. Fluid all replenished. still hard braking under light pressure. The O.P. , I'm sure, was about mostly just that. In earlier years I had a ZX 7 that had the same issue. A mechanic fixed it for me but I haven't the faintest as to what he did. I have a couple of ideas and will post when I get results.

I was almost sent within 2 ft of setting off because of the braking. zero median when breathing on the lever, then to touch it with butt puckering results.
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Old May 16th, 2016, 06:04 AM   #20
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It is a surface problem.
The pads are self-grabbing the disc and the energy of the rotation makes then grab harder and harder.

I would sand the contact faces of the pads and would change the current finish of the contact surfaces of the discs with non-sand abrasive.
Also important to file off any dent of the slidding pins/guides and to lubricate those with silicone or copper based brake lubricant.
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Old May 16th, 2016, 08:21 AM   #21
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I recommend servicing the calipers completely.

My write-up on how-to

I recommend that every time you change your pads, you service the calipers, he's my write-up to help you out. It should fix your initial problem, and keep your calipers in top working order.

Quote:
For those of you whom are scratching their heads, here you go,*


Front Caliper Service (also rear as well)

Many folks have posted here with a Varity of front brake problems.

*Many of which are attributable to the lack of proper maintenance.

*Here’s how you can always have a brake like when your bike was new.

A short list of the problems and the causes.

Soft lever or lever goes to the bar.

The usual cause is the pistons are pushed too far back into the caliper by a flexing a warped, coned, disc.

*Using up too much piston travel before the disc is pinched.

Juddering in sync with wheel rotation.

The disc is worn, and its thickness varies. *This causes the caliper to “sink” into the thin part and when the thick part comes around, it gets wedged into a smaller space causing a tightening of the brake. Then the tight spot passes through and it like the brake is released. Then repeat, repeat.

Cupped, coned, or warped disc.

Unfortunately this is a common problem with EX’s the cause is the disc is stretched in the center due to being rigidly bolted to the wheel. *The huge force of braking is transmitted to the wheel through the webbed center of the disc which gets stretched and becomes larger than the space it occupies in the center of the disc. This causes the center to push to the side trying to find room for itself.

*Resulting is a cone shaped disc.

Soft lever 2

The caliper has pistons only on one side, so as the pads wear the caliper must shift sideways apply even pressure on both sides of the disc.

*To allow this the caliper floats on two pins. *If these pins get dry (no grease) dirty or bent. The caliper won’t center itself and bends the disc to wherever it is.

This take up lever travel and when released pushes the pistons further back than necessary.

*If not fixed will eventually destroy the disc (warp it).


Ok how to prevent all of the above.

When new pad time comes around, resist the temptation to just pop in new one and go.

*Every time you must do these things.

Remove caliper disassemble and clean it.

Clean and re grease the sliding pins.

Polish the caliper pistons to remove dirt. If you just push the pistons back into the caliper leaks will result. Or binding.

Tools required:
12 mm socket
8mm open end wrench
3” or bigger C clamp
a supply of new bake fluid.
wire brush and or steel wool.

Remove the caliper from the fork leg but leave the brake line on.

Remove the old pads and the mounting frame (the sliding pins)

Remove the cover from the Master Cylinder on the Handel bar.

Attach the C clamp to one of the pistons but don’t squeeze it. *Pump the lever on the bar slowly to push out the other piston almost all the way. *Put the C clamp on that piston and push out the other one.

Remove both pistons by hand.

Remove all the rubber part from the caliper, the seals are in the grooves in the caliper and dull pointed thingy will get them out easy.

Disconnect the caliper from the brake line.

Soak all the rubber parts in new clean brake fluid * ONLY!!!!! * Rub them with you fingers till as clean as new.

The caliper can be cleaned with a wire brush or even a Moto tool for the internal grooves, NOW’s the time to paint it if you wish.

Polish the pistons till they are smooth and shinny. They are chrome plated. If any of the plating is chipped or damaged below the dust cap groove. *Replace it.

The master cylinder is the subject of another write up and we’ll assume it in good working order here.

If you suspect your disc is bad, your bets bet is to replace it with an after market one fro EBC or Galpher.

*Don’t remove the disc unless you intend to replace it. *It will assume a new shape if it is * stressed and will not be flat again. You can try to check its condition by placing a straight edge across the face of the pad swept area looking for any distortion.

Re assembly

Take the nice clean rubber seals and install them into the caliper then the Dust covers.
Wet all the rubber with new clean brake fluid and partially fill the caliper with new fluid.

Push the pistons though the dust seals and into the caliper body until the dust covers snap into the grooves.

Fill the MC with new fluid and pump the lever while holding the Line above the MC till clean fluid flows.

Connect the line to the caliper while holding it above the MC.

Pump the lever with the bleeder valve open till fluid flow from the bleeder.

*Hold the caliper so that the bleeder is the highest point.

Close the bleeder and pump more fluid into the caliper but don’t push the pistons all the way out.

Then squeeze the pistons all the way back in and install the new pads.

Re grease the slider pins and assemble the dust seals and re mount the caliper on the forks but leave the bolts loose.

Now clamp the caliper to the disc with the brake lever.

Look at the space between the fork lugs and the caliper, clamp and release a few times as you tighten the bolts by hand. It one lug touches much before the other the odds are you mounting bracket is bent. You can straighten it.

*After you get it the best you can. Some shim washers made from alum can stock can be fitted to the loose side.*

** *What we are doing here is trying to minimize the bedd in time and gets the best pad life.


Ok with everything tight you should be through, Notice we don’t need to bleed the brakes, but if you screwed up in any of the above steps, you might do that here.

Be careful to Bedd in the new pads gently.

*Too much pressure too soon will burn the pad material as only a small area will be gripping at first. You also won’t have full braking power till the pads are fully familiar with the disc



I also recommend flush and fill with new brake fluid, also I'd go with 5.1DOT.

No matter what kind of brake fluid you choose, always periodically flush and fill with new fluid.

This is the one I use



https://m.motul.com/ca/en-us/product...-1-brake-fluid



Also inspect the brake lines, replace is needed, http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Stainle..._lines_upgrade


Quote:
Venhill Introduction
Greetings everyone!

I wanted to take a moment to introduce you to Venhill...

Venhill manufactures some of the highest quality brake lines and cables you can get. We've been in business since 1971 and currently offer a full range of brake lines for the Ninja 250, first and second generations.

Our website, venhillusa.com, is setup to take orders for any year Ninja 250 as well as many other bikes. You can pick your bike and then customize your kits as you wish. We offer many different colors of hose as well as different finishes and materials for hardware. All of these options can be selected during the purchase process, so you'll be sure to get exactly what you want. You can even add length to hoses if needed.

To get an idea of our reputation, have a look at our eBay feedback.

If you have any questions or comments about Venhill products or brake lines or cables in general, please share them. I'm happy to be a resource for general information about brake lines and cables as well. Technical questions are welcome!

Please take a look at our website and let us know what you think. We just recently did a complete makeover and are interested in feedback. (venhillusa.com)

Have a great day and stay safe,

Chris
Venhill USA

For the detail oriented out there, some interesting things you might want to know about Venhill and our products:

Our factory is ISO 9001-2000 approved, which basically means we have the ability to consistently produce quality products. To qualify for ISO approval your factory and quality control mechanisms are evaluated as to whether your "good" products happen by chance, or if they are a result of good quality control.

All of our hoses are built to DOT/TUV spec and have been certified as such. We submitted hoses to the TUV (German DOT) for testing and only by passing are we allowed to use the TUV symbol on our hoses. Every hose we sell is built to these specifications, even if it is for track or offroad use only. It just makes for a higher quality product.

All of our hoses are hydraulically crimped, not hand crimped, and leak/pressure tested in a water bath. Yes, we immerse every hose we build in a water bath and pressurize it to check for leaks and to verify integrity of the crimps.

Venhill's hose core is authentic DuPont Teflon which is more expensive than generic "PTFE" but is stronger with a smoother inner bore. This is surrounded by 96 strands of braided marine grade stainless wire. 96 strands is more dense than some other braided line brands and the marine grade alloy is a stronger metal, which reduces expansion, the reason rubber hoses feel "spongy". Finally, we coat the braid with a UV-resistant PVC, extruded on during manufacture. This protects the hose as well as body and paint work.

Our hose design uses free-floating swivels, which allow you to loosely install everything before the hoses are tightened into place. This ensures the hose is not forced into a twist or kink when the banjo bolts are tightened. If you're worried about leaks, don't be. Our swivels work on the same premise as every threaded connection on a car or truck.

As you can see, we're sort of obsessed with quality and safety. We look at it this way: If we're asking you to put our brake lines on your bike, you're trusting us with the integrity of your brakes. That's a serious concept and we refuse to compromise when it comes to the integrity of your brakes.
I have these stainless steel lines on my Ninjette, and so far, some good, I recommend getting the stainless steel banjo bolts, I noticed my chrome ones have started to rust slightly, a good excuse for me to upgrade to titanium

On my 91 EX500 I have Spiegler, in orange to match that bike.

Quote:
So you have made the decision that your OEM rubber lines need to be changed.

So why choose Spiegler Brake Lines?

A: Strength

That’s the short answer. But it doesn’t tell the whole story.

Spiegler Brake Lines strength comes from our innovation and research, materials and construction, knowledge and experience, service and support.

At Spiegler, we believe that the more you know about what we put into our products, the better you’ll be able to answer that question yourself.


That’s the short version; now let’s cover this topic more in depth.

Most OEM manufacturer recommend that you replace your rubber brake lines every 2 to 3 years. Why do the OEM’s recommend this? Over time OEM rubber lines deteriorate rapidly due to expansion and UV damage. This leads to increased braking distances and possible failure.

At Spiegler, our brake lines are made of only the finest materials available.

Outside casings are made of tightly woven stainless steel braiding that exceeds our competitors
The inside is made with DuPont’s PTFE-Teflon which eliminates expansion and adds durability
Crimp sleeves are made from stainless steel; competitors are using mostly carbon steel
Unique patented adjustable banjo fittings eliminate line twist during installation.
30% weight savings in comparison to other stainless steel braided brake lines
DOT approved
Lifetime warranty
117 color combinations possible which allows customers to personalize their bikes
We can build your lines to any specifications for custom applications
All brake line kits come ready for install

For more information on why you should choose Spiegler Brake Lines, you can view the following pages for a more detailed look into Spiegler brake lines.

When it comes to safety items like brakes, when in doubt, throw them out, it's your safety in your hands, and is cheaper than a visit to the ER.

Buy quality pads,I personally recommend EBC brand either the HH, or the Extreme HH.

full floating rotor or wave rotor, replace the OEM rubber line with a stainless steel braided brake line, cheaper than replacing them with OEM.

On my 500 I have Spiegler line

http://www.spieglerusa.com/brakes/cy...line-kits.html

On my Ninja 250 i went with Venhill

http://www.venhillusa.com/products.html

With all that, it will stop on a dime, and leave you nine cents in change.

look here http://ebcbrakes.com/products/motorcycle/

And also read this, http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...otors_and_Pads

That should answer any questions you might have.
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