Honda fights back

[CC Cowboy]

It looks like the success of the 250 Ninja is finally being challenged by Honda with the new Honda VTR250 Roadster. I think the bike looks good although (Honda being a pretty smart company) it isn't a direct competitor since it is a naked street fighter design (Ducati Monster influence) instead of the full fairing (Ninja) design.



http://www.motorcycledaily.com/15apr...nda_vtr250.htm

It is for the European market right now but with the Ninja 250R success I believe it will be here soon.

[dyeclan]

Front fender looks like it's off a huffy, but that could be a mean looking little ride with a few changes. Not giving up my 'jette for it though.

[sombo]

The ninjette has had competition from the others for years, just never in the states. For some reason Kawasaki is the only one that competes for the 250 market in the states. If you look around the globe you'll find other 150/250/300/400 sport bikes from the others that we've never seen or even heard of.

Hell even Kawasaki doesn't respect the 250 market in the states that much. We never got the ZZR250 that Canada did. We also never saw the ZX-250r that Japan and Australia got. Both bikes are better then the EX250F to some degree, but never brought to American public.

Hopefully with the recent sales of the Ninjette they've opened the Japanese bike makers eyes to see that the small bike market is indeed strong in the states and will start competing for a share of it. Imagine if they brought back the little 250 inline 4's they all used to make?

[poopooegg]

I may reconsider my purchase decision if this 250 comes out from Honda in Canada!

[Snake]

^^^^Kawasaki has much better bikes^^^^ just my opinion.

[capt_bugaloo]

I would definitely like to see more bikes in the 250 to 400cc range.

[Rynownd]

I like that Honda, but I'd never trade the Ninj for it.

[kazam58]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

It is for the European market right now but with the Ninja 250R success I believe it will be here soon.

Doubtful. There are so many smaller bikes for sale in elsewhere in the world that still haven't been brought to the states after years of production. Aprilia finally brought it's 125 to the states, but it's a "track only" version. Why? Beats me. Automakers and motorcycling companies are convinced that America is an entirely different market than the rest of the world. Here, the Ninja 250 is considered an "entry-level bike". Go read reviews, that's all they ever say. Anything smaller than a 600 in the states is considered a beginner's bike. A real bike is at least 600cc's big. Or at least that's how they think (or seem to think). Anywhere else, this a bike that seasoned riders buy and use for years as their primary machine. Look at Indonesia. This a large bike for them. Here, a very common remark is "So when are you gonna move up?" I believe this mentality has worn off on manufacturers. This is not my opinion, and doesn't apply to most of us on this forum (who happen to be a much smarter and more mature bunch than the average American), but unfortunately this mentality seems to be present in a majority.
And it's not just with motorcycles. Look at cars. Ford sells an entirely different line of cars in Europe than in America. Why? Because they're convinced it's a different market. If you ask me, that's a load of bs, but that's what they've said. There, the Focus is a decent car. Here, it's a POS designed for the 30-something women who can't distinguish between a wrench and a steering wheel. There are tons of cars in Europe with engines smaller than 2.0L that get almost 40mpg and still deliver decent power. Try to find that in the states. Here, 30 mpg is a godsend and a 3.5L engine in a sedan is normal. IMHO, that's ridiculous, there is no need for that. It seems to me that Auto and Motorcycle manufacturers are both convinced that America is an entirely different market than the rest of the world, and therefore, those of who know differently, get shafted because we get neither the bikes nor cars we drool over.
Okay, end rant/editorial. I hope I didn't offend anyone in there, I just get very worked up over this. I almost started to dance when I heard Alfa Romeos might start to get imported again (envision how sad this is and you understand my problems ).
Deep breathe...

[sombo]

+1

[camaroz1985]

Originally Posted by kazam58

Doubtful. There are so many smaller bikes for sale in elsewhere in the world that still haven't been brought to the states after years of production. Aprilia finally brought it's 125 to the states, but it's a "track only" version. Why? Beats me. Automakers and motorcycling companies are convinced that America is an entirely different market than the rest of the world. Here, the Ninja 250 is considered an "entry-level bike". Go read reviews, that's all they ever say. Anything smaller than a 600 in the states is considered a beginner's bike. A real bike is at least 600cc's big. Or at least that's how they think (or seem to think). Anywhere else, this a bike that seasoned riders buy and use for years as their primary machine. Look at Indonesia. This a large bike for them. Here, a very common remark is "So when are you gonna move up?" I believe this mentality has worn off on manufacturers. This is not my opinion, and doesn't apply to most of us on this forum (who happen to be a much smarter and more mature bunch than the average American), but unfortunately this mentality seems to be present in a majority.
And it's not just with motorcycles. Look at cars. Ford sells an entirely different line of cars in Europe than in America. Why? Because they're convinced it's a different market. If you ask me, that's a load of bs, but that's what they've said. There, the Focus is a decent car. Here, it's a POS designed for the 30-something women who can't distinguish between a wrench and a steering wheel. There are tons of cars in Europe with engines smaller than 2.0L that get almost 40mpg and still deliver decent power. Try to find that in the states. Here, 30 mpg is a godsend and a 3.5L engine in a sedan is normal. IMHO, that's ridiculous, there is no need for that. It seems to me that Auto and Motorcycle manufacturers are both convinced that America is an entirely different market than the rest of the world, and therefore, those of who know differently, get shafted because we get neither the bikes nor cars we drool over.
Okay, end rant/editorial. I hope I didn't offend anyone in there, I just get very worked up over this. I almost started to dance when I heard Alfa Romeos might start to get imported again (envision how sad this is and you understand my problems ).
Deep breathe...

The reason Aprilia sells the RS125 as a track only bike is because of emissions. It is a 2 stroke and would not pass emissions.

As for the rest, while a lot of it is hyped up by "enthusiast" magazines, it is true in some respects that Americans think differently. Do we need the bigger bikes or cars with bigger engines, no, but do we want them, you bet!!

Things are changing all the time. It might not be too long before people wise up. Of course I'm not one to talk because to me I like to enjoy the drive and would not totally get rid of my V8 cars or low mpg turbo 4 cylinder car. I might not drive them everyday, but by no means would I abandon them completely.

But back on topic, I like the Honda, but wouldn't take a naked bike as a primary bike. It would be a great supplement though.

[kazam58]

By no means do I think that large engines need to be abandoned, for those same engines are also sold all over the world in addition to the smaller engines, which is what I think is key, to keep all the options open, instead of limiting the market to what manufacturers or magazines believe. I know that I would always like to have a good, powerful sports car in my garage, but I would also have no issue with having a second, cheap commuter with a small engine.
And I hear you about the magazines, they do an excellent job of exaggerating.

But yes, back to the topic. I think the bike looks nice and I sure wouldn't mind seeing it on the roads here!

[CC Cowboy]

I think America's view of small displacement bikes has changed. The Ninja 250R has helped as has the number of people who ride scooters. Scooters are huge in the rest of the world and they have finally caught on here.

[tinng321]

what about United Motor?
There's a 250 in area for sale but i wasn't sure if UM is a good bike.
http://www.umamerica.com/site/usa/mo...ml#usa_motosp2

[kkim]

stay away from the UMs.

[sombo]

The United Motors is just a re-badged Hyosung bike. From all the reviews of that bike they are great in design but bad in quality. I'd say if you give them about 10 years to learn how to build to the same quality of the ninja you'll have one of it's strongest competitors.

[tinng321]

Originally Posted by sombo

The United Motors is just a re-badged Hyosung bike. From all the reviews of that bike they are great in design but bad in quality. I'd say if you give them about 10 years to learn how to build to the same quality of the ninja you'll have one of it's strongest competitors.

Hyosung?
are they from korea?

[camaroz1985]

Agreed. Quality is poor, and I'm sure finding parts will not be nearly as easy when it breaks (and it will). I looked at them, but even the build quality wasn't nearly as nice. There is a dealer right down the street from me that sells them, but for most people there is nothing local.

They have been around for a while, but just aren't of the same quality.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by tinng321

Hyosung?
are they from korea?

Yes they are from Korea, and yes they will break, and their customer support is very bad atm along with getting parts.

[kkim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkqDzeCVkX0

[Alex]

Not to mention their brand reputation is completely nonexistent, which makes their resale worthless, and consequently makes their cost of ownership much higher. Buy a $7k honda, sell it in 3 years for $5K. Buy a $4K ninjette, sell it in 3 years for $2700+. Buy a $5K Hyosung, sell it in 3 years for $1500 if you're lucky.

That has absolutely zero to do with the inherent quality of the machines, which have never received positive reviews anyway.

[Visus]

Very nice bike! I'd be all over that.

[Snake]

I noticed it had a V twin engine.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by rcuriel

I noticed it had a V twin engine.

yes, hence the name... VTR250 Roadster

[dyeclan]

I think part of the appeal of the smaller engine bikes is that you get to use them to their fullest potential. What fun is it to have a 'busa and never get it up into its powerband? I get to use every ounce of bike paid for, and have a blast doing it. I think people are starting to get that; I know my 'little' bike gets a lot of respect after being chased around for a few hours on the twisties.

That said, the more the merrier. I'd love to see a small displacement
Aprilia Shiver.

[RaceBikeRentals]

Kawasaki is losing money on the Ninja 250, so I think that's a good deterrent for other manufs to not bring a competing bike over. Think about it... $3995 for a new Ninja 250R. Have you priced scooters and 250cc dirt bikes lately? 4Gs is an absolute steal. By the time Kawi designs, manufacturs & transports the bike over here, they're losing. They do it for brand loyalty. They want you to ride the bike then move up to a 6, which is what a lot of people ARE doing. Genius, I tell ya! Honda & Yamaha could bring there 250 4s over here, but those things are gonna cost $8,000 and nobody's gonna buy them.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by RaceBikeRentals

Kawasaki is losing money on the Ninja 250

Richard, you may very well be right on that point, but I'm not sure any of us without Kawasaki Motors on our business card could confirm that for sure. What I do know is that no matter what the product is, if you can use the same tooling for 10+ years, whatever you were losing on the first one, you'll be losing a lot less as the years go on. Wonder why the last-gen ninjette had minimal changes for almost 20 years? Wonder no more. I don't see any significant changes for the current-gens for 8+ years. Only thing I'd predict is that if the carbed models can't meet emissions in future years, the FI model becomes more widespread...

[sm0kediver]

No doubt Kawasaki doesn't see much of a profit on the Ninja 250.

My lowly Suzuki DR200 retails for over $4000 this year, and it's a stripped down, no frills dual sport. Single thumper engine with no bells and no whistles. No turn signal cancel, no fairing, no wind shield, engine mounted choke lever, no rear rack, no tachometer, tubed tires... I love it for my purposes, but it's basically a primitive engine with wheels and a seat.

The Kawi is downright refined next to it, has more HP, more useful features, goes twice as fast, and costs less.

I doubt Honda will deliver the VTR to the states for less than 5k.

[HKr1]

HONDA SUCKS!!!













Oh wait, I got one of there motors on my lawn mower

[sombo]

Sorry to disagree, but it's not as expensive for them to build as you think. The '07 ninjette cost dealerships about $2750 (a dealer showed me this once back then) and was being sold at $3000. Granted it didn't generate alot of money but it still paid for itself. Now, with the 'J' model 250 they moved the factory to China to reduce production costs, they also increased the price of the bike by nearly $1000 for '09 as compared to the '07. They may not be making a ton of money on them, but I do not believe they are losing money on their best selling bike world wide.

As for the other manufactures, they still make those 250 bikes. They never stopped making 250 sport bikes. They just NEVER brought them to the USA. Instead they send them to Europe, or Canada, or Australia, or other parts of Asia. If the manufacturers were losing so much money on the small bikes world wide then they would stop making them in numbers greater then the big bikes. It's not about brand loyalty but about controlling the market to make more profits. In the USA the general feeling is bigger is better and so all vehicle manufacturers focus on bigger vehicles for the USA and ignoring the smaller ones. It's all about control, nothing more, nothing less.

There fixed my mistake. :P

[sm0kediver]

Originally Posted by sombo

It's not about brand loyalty but about controlling the market to make more prophets.

They don't make prophets like they used to...

[sombo]

Originally Posted by sm0kediver

They don't make prophets like they used to...

LOL, I didn't even notice I did that. You know what I meant. :P

[sm0kediver]

Yes, I knew what you meant, but I hate to pass up the chance to capitalize on an honest mistake

[Kurosaki]

Honda FTW

[miks]

The Ninja 250R is killing it in the market of Australia, before the '08 bike came out, the highest selling 250cc bike in Australia was the Hyosuck GT250R followed by the Honda VTR250. But since the new-gen Ninja 250R came out, its blitz the competition and is now the highest selling 250cc bike here by a mile!

But with that said, many people over here in Australia have the VTR and say that its a great little bike to learn on and is really forgiving for learners, so when and if this new Roadster edition does come to Australia, the Ninja 250R would have to watch it's back!

[Syphen]

I love the way those VTR250's look. Too bad they aren't here in Canada. I would have bought it already.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by sombo

The '07 ninjette cost dealerships about $2750 (a dealer showed me this once back then) and was being sold at $3000. Granted it didn't generate alot of money but it still paid for itself. Now, with the 'J' model 250 they moved the factory to China to reduce production costs, they also increased the price of the bike by nearly $1000 for '09 as compared to the '07.

The difference between what dealers pay and what dealers sell them for has little to do with what Kawi is making on the machines themselves. If dealers couldn't make anything on them, they'd order none and there wouldn't be any point in Kawi making them in the first place. For all we know it's costing them $3500 all in per unit (including development time, factory setup, etc), yet they still do this in order to build the brand and get more people on to their more profitable bikes. Or maybe it costs them $1500 per bike and they are making a killing. Hard to say without actually being in the know.

As far as I know, the factory wasn't moved to China, but instead to Thailand. But yes, it was done to help manage manufacturing costs.

[TrueFaith]

Although Kawasaki does not release sales figures for the 250, it has always been referred to by them as their best-selling bike for all but a few years since it was introduced. They would not be producing this bike, or most notably spending the big bucks necessary to revamp the design in '08, if it wasn't making money for them.

[RaceBikeRentals]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith

They would not be producing this bike, or most notably spending the big bucks necessary to revamp the design in '08, if it wasn't making money for them.

Sure they would. Companies do it all the time. Even smart companies, like Sony. PS3 anyone?

[Snake]

In the fight between Kawi and Honda..Kawi will win hands down.

[TrueFaith]

Originally Posted by RaceBikeRentals

Sure they would. Companies do it all the time. Even smart companies, like Sony. PS3 anyone?

That's not really the same situation. Sony was willing to take a loss on the PS3 in order to get the product into the market. They expect to recoup that loss and undoubtedly will the longer it's on the market.
The Ninja 250 is undeniably Kawi's sales leader world-wide. Confirmation of this fact is widely available, even if they aren't as fourthcoming with sales figures as some other companies. Retooling the production lines and building a brand-new factory in Thailand to manufacture the redesigned Ninja was a huge investment for them. One that no company would make unless the market was already established. The Japanese did not achieve their manufacturing prowess by building products that don't sell.