CBR600F3 Fork Cartridge Install: Taking the Plunge!

[tgold]

Originally Posted by pattonme

@howlinhoss summoned me so here I am (the guy who does cartridge retrofits).

Choose Ricor Intiminators (Spears Racing) over RT's GVE. It's just a better product. But neither can hold a candle to the real deal.

TGold, if I build you a set of cartridge forks they'll be spot on, right out of the gate. Same can be said of Zoran. Stock donor valving (GSXR etc.) not so much. I did a set for an R3 racer never having seen the bike and he's over the moon and railing around Blackhawk Farms.

> while only spending a couple of Benjamins

Yeah, keep on dreaming there, friend.

I'm guessing folks are sourcing the Andreani from Italy (technically illegal for them to sell to USA). I have a close relationship with the USA importer who is also an Ohlins supplier so while I can't advertise below MAP, as part of a package deal or with "installation/rework" I can pass the savings on to you. The Andreani design has several tradeoffs that I can fix for improved performance though if all you ride is smooth race tracks the limitations don't come to the fore as much. Anything bumpy or on the street you'll find their OE limits.

You can get replacement stanchions for a decent price. I haven't picked thru his store to see if he has anything in 37mm but some of the Honda items might be the right size. I deal almost exclusively with 41mm forks so my knowledge of the others is a bit thin.

http://stores.ebay.com/Gingstore?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

Here are some pics of the modified GSXR fork cap.

Matt, I'm familiar with the work of both you and Zoran and I appreciate your input.

I'm just playing around with this stuff and I may actually have you or someone else modify my suspension if I find that I am not willing to spend the time on optimizing my own setup. I will pm or email you about what I'm looking for.

[Yamahawk]

Here is a picture of the 06 GSXR600 cartridges, after the springs and melted spacers were removed. There is still some burnt oil up in the top caps, and I will pull them apart to clean them soon. i am excited to get this 1st gen EX250E outfitted with modern rubber and good suspension, for this coming season.

[Yamahawk]

Here is the cartridge alongside the EX250F fork, it seems that they are a little shorter than the fork, but there must be a way to lengthen it to work. @pattonme what do you think?

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

Here is the cartridge alongside the EX250F fork, it seems that they are a little shorter than the fork, but there must be a way to lengthen it to work. @pattonme what do you think?

There is also the option of shortening the fork tubes, then slide the forks up in the tripple clamps, and or use woodcraft lowered risers.

[tgold]

Well, I'm putting in the cartridge emulators soon, and I really do want to get to actual cartridges at some point this year, but I think that I have another idea that should help improve the performance of cartridge emulators.

I've designed a simple addition to the emulator that will allow for some adjustment of rebound damping. It remains to be seen on how effective it will be, but it is very easy to disable I can easily go back to the standard emulator configuration.

[Yamahawk]

Cool Timm,
Are you adding a remote adjustment through the fork caps so that you can screw the bolt in or out as needed?

[pattonme]

yes @Yamahawk I lengthen the cartridge rod as needed. won't be a problem

[pattonme]

Originally Posted by tgold

Well, I'm putting in the cartridge emulators soon, and I really do want to get to actual cartridges at some point this year
...
I've designed a simple addition to the emulator that will allow for some adjustment of rebound damping.

rebound isn't gated by the GVE at all. it has a plate backed by a weak spring to keep the bottom closed, is all. rebound is entirely controlled by the OE damper rod's hole (modulo seal leakage) and the viscosity of the oil. I'm curious to see what you've done since increasing the spring on the plate just invites cavitation.

A key problem with GVE-like solutions is that the damper rod itself doesn't seal worth a damn. The GVE only regulates the fluid that comes up the tube but doesn't control all of the fluid escaping past the rod 'head'. The Ricor supposedly does by sealing against the tube wall.

On the GVE (I did it on 3 bikes before I got smart) I would have made the bleed hole in the 'hat' a fraction of it's current size. I well remember the absolute mess of repeatedly fishing the unit out of the fork tube and of trying 5 different weights of oil trying to find anything that worked. I even did a GVE in one leg and used the internals from a ZX6E with adjustable rebound orifice in the other. Results were decidedly 'meh'.

then I put in ZX6F internals (as-is) and it was like "why did I waste countless hours on this GVE nonsense?!"

If you want good suspension that is easy and not messy to adjust, then cartridges is the only way.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by pattonme

rebound isn't gated by the GVE at all. it has a plate backed by a weak spring to keep the bottom closed, is all. rebound is entirely controlled by the OE damper rod's hole (modulo seal leakage) and the viscosity of the oil. I'm curious to see what you've done since increasing the spring on the plate just invites cavitation.

A key problem with GVE-like solutions is that the damper rod itself doesn't seal worth a damn. The GVE only regulates the fluid that comes up the tube but doesn't control all of the fluid escaping past the rod 'head'. The Ricor supposedly does by sealing against the tube wall.

On the GVE (I did it on 3 bikes before I got smart) I would have made the bleed hole in the 'hat' a fraction of it's current size. I well remember the absolute mess of repeatedly fishing the unit out of the fork tube and of trying 5 different weights of oil trying to find anything that worked. I even did a GVE in one leg and used the internals from a ZX6E with adjustable rebound orifice in the other. Results were decidedly 'meh'.

then I put in ZX6F internals (as-is) and it was like "why did I waste countless hours on this GVE nonsense?!"

If you want good suspension that is easy and not messy to adjust, then cartridges is the only way.

You'll get no argument from me that cartridges are pretty much the ultimate solution. However, the fact remains that there have been championship-winning bikes that used emulators. The key difference being that someone took the time to set them up well. This idea, (if it works... and that's a big IF) is a very simple way to regulate the oil flow out of the rebound orifice. I also have some ideas to improve the sealing performance of the damper rod sealing too. This would leave controlling the flow out of the rebound orifice as the main influence on rebound performance. As I said, it's simple and that's why I want to give it a shot.

[pattonme]

Originally Posted by tgold

However, the fact remains that there have been championship-winning bikes that used emulators.

absolutely. a good rider can ride anything. And for the most part everyone in the field is running emulators or worse so the playing field is "level". An expert racer was passing everybody in my group like we were going backwards on a stock SV. I did his forks and he knocked well over a second off his times on the first serious outing. YMMV of course.

[Yamahawk]

I have the forks and cartridges boxed up, and ready to ship!! Looking forward to getting this build done for this spring. Thanks @patttonme

[tgold]

Originally Posted by Yamahawk

I have the forks and cartridges boxed up, and ready to ship!! Looking forward to getting this build done for this spring. Thanks @patttonme

Uh-oh. Charlie ain't bringin' a knife to a gunfight this season.

I just gave the go-ahead for a Fox shock rebuild, respring, & revalve for the little ninjette about 15 minutes ago.

Game on!

[Yamahawk]

Cool! I hear that Soren is going to race with us, too. He picked up a 250 for the spring!! I think watching us race last year really got him excited lol... 3 across in turn 12 and all that!! We should have a really good grid, with some new fellows wanting to race also. I am excited, and God willing, we will all be there, and have a great time!

[csmith12]

Don't make me come up there.... lol

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't make me come up there.... lol

I can't 'make' you come up brother, but I can encourage you to. I miss racing with the fellow I used to chase around on my RD350! Now that was fun!

[csmith12]

I should be able to make it up there for a round or two of racing, I really miss the good times.

You guys getting pretty deep in the setup of your bikes. It's inspiring to say the least, but sadly all I have planned is a paint refresh on my 250. It will still be mostly WERA production spec and still red lol. Oh well, we will race anyway.

Wish you guys all the best and until then...

[Yamahawk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I should be able to make it up there for a round or two of racing, I really miss the good times.

You guys getting pretty deep in the setup of your bikes. It's inspiring to say the least, but sadly all I have planned is a paint refresh on my 250. It will still be mostly WERA production spec and still red lol. Oh well, we will race anyway.

Wish you guys all the best and until then...

If I remember, your bike was set up pretty well already! It was one fast 250 brother! My two-stroke 350 had a hard time catching it. How did you like the retro pic lol?

[redkid]

erm...any update on this guys? i still cant afford those Andreani since 2016

[pattonme]

'this' == my cartridge kit? I could send you the main assemblies if you like. Install would be on you.

[tgold]

Nothing new to report. The front end on my little Ninja has worked quite well for two seasons with emulators and proper 10wt oil. I didn't just use any 10wt oil though. Most people have good results with emulators by using 10wt and some by using 15wt. If you look at a list of oils and their actual viscosities you will find that they vary widely. enough so, that some 10wt oils are as viscous as some 5wt oils and some 10wt as viscous as 15wt oils. Then there is the viscosity index (VI). VI is an indicator of how well an oil maintains its viscosity as its temperature rises during use. Oils with a low VI get comparatively thinner as the their temperature goes up as opposed to oils with a high viscosity index that maintain their viscosity better.
Knowing that picking the correct 10wt oil out of the gate would be practically like winning the lottery, I decided to go a different route. I looked at a big chart of suspension oils and picked out all of the 10wt oils, (there were probably 20 different oils that I looked at) then I looked at their actual viscosity as measured in centistokes. Disregarding the two oils with the highest actual viscosity and the two oils with the lowest actual viscosity, I took the average viscosity of the rest of the oils. That gave me a number of about 42 centistokes. Then I took several different viscosities of Redline oil (which has some of the highest viscoity indexes in the business) and custom mixed them to get an oil with a viscosity of 42 centistokes. That is the oil I used in my Ninjette fork. The only adjustment I made was the oil height when I first set up the forks last year. In two seasons we've won eight endurance races, and one championship so for this bike I think that's good enough.

For a great wealth of info on suspension oils google Peter Verdone. His stuff was my primary resource.

For my FZR 400 chassis/R3 motor project bike I'm definitely going to a better performing fork simply because I want to. I'll probably be calling on pattonme when I get to that point.

[pattonme]

or if you want a more recent oil list which was definitely derived from Peter's:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rigjw2juyy...20weights.html

[empire00]

I have a set of matt's forks in my 250, Hands down the best money I have put into this bike.

[redkid]

Originally Posted by pattonme

'this' == my cartridge kit? I could send you the main assemblies if you like. Install would be on you.

Thanks! What would the cartridge price for a racer with a tight budget leki me would be?