Why the 2013 Ninja 250 sucks

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Alex

But to Jiggles' question, why wouldn't you ride with the choke on for the first few minutes? That's how it should be used in cold conditions. Start it on the choke, and if the bike won't idle without the choke on, leave it on while you roll away. Start dialing the choke back after a minute or two, and all is well.

As I stated, I did ride it with the choke on after a while. It still didn't help the situation. The bike sputtered with the choke the same as it did without it. Maybe relative humiddity has something to do with it as well. I just know late fall and early winter mornings caused me to hate the carbs. I didn't care for them much to begin with. Maybe my particular bike had an issue. The 84 RX-7 I had years ago used carbs and it had similar problems in cold weather, choke used or not.

As I already also mentioned, I had not one single problem firing up that TU250 on the days I decided to ride it, regardless of the temperature. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, carbs are a dead technology that has far exceeded its useful application, at least where on-road vehicles are concerned. The fact that the 2013 has FI makes me seriously reconsider a Ninjette for a future purchase as a commuter.

[Racer x]

If you change the pilot jet to one number richer you will find the cold weather behavior much better.

I had an 85 gs with a Race Beat 13B engine. On a wet morning ice would freeze the manifold. It would stall the engine out if I did not shut it off and let it warm up some. This is a little different. The factory jets these engines way lean.

I would like to see a fifty hp 250cc four stroke. Not measured at the crank but 50 rear wheel hp. The only one I have seen is an mv Augusta with a supercharged I4.

[Jiggles]

I personally think stock carbs on a 250 makes more sense than stock EFI. And the reason is that so many people love to mod these bikes. You can't mess with the intake or exhaust on stock EFI because it has preset maps that it uses. So instead of paying $80 to rejet you're now paying $500 to mess with the ECU.

I think someone said that the 250s ECU will be adjustable, which if it is that is a MAJOR plus to going EFI on the 250 but if it's not adjustable I think more people will be hindered by the EFI over carbs.

[Numbersix]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I personally think stock carbs on a 250 makes more sense than stock EFI. And the reason is that so many people love to mod these bikes.

Great; so if you like spending time with your bike in pieces, a carb is for you. Maybe you'd like to take up collecting old MGs and Fiats too?

Also, you live in San Jose, CA, not Duluth, MN. You'd sing a different tune if you were fighting to get the #@%^@ engine to stay fired up in February, winter riding gloves on, trying to get to work on time.

I've grown up in S.B, CA and live in MI now, so I know whereof I speak. My EFI Honda was easy in winter; 5 or 95F, push the button, it starts, go. I love my Ninjette but I am not looking forward to the way carbs behave in sub-freezing weather.

[alex.s]

maybe i'm delusional but if the efi computer is programmable and/or automatic, tuning efi is easier and gives you a better result. if its a stock non-programmable efi unit, you can't do anything.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Numbersix

Great; so if you like spending time with your bike in pieces, a carb is for you. Maybe you'd like to take up collecting old MGs and Fiats too?

Also, you live in San Jose, CA, not Duluth, MN. You'd sing a different tune if you were fighting to get the #@%^@ engine to stay fired up in February, winter riding gloves on, trying to get to work on time.

I've grown up in S.B, CA and live in MI now, so I know whereof I speak. My EFI Honda was easy in winter; 5 or 95F, push the button, it starts, go. I love my Ninjette but I am not looking forward to the way carbs behave in sub-freezing weather.

Some people like to ride their bikes like they drive their car. Never bringing a wrench near it and taking it to a dealer to get the oil changed. I'm not one of those people and going to EFI pushes people in that direction which is lame. If my 250 had come with stock EFI I'd have never stripped it down and learned a whole bunch about my bike going into the carbs. The most in depth thing I'd have ever done is change the oil if even that. I'd never have bought an Area P pipe since it wouldn't be possible to tune the bike.

The point is working on your bike is part of riding and part of owning a bike. Part of what's awesome about the ninja 250 is that its possible to learn about working on the bike and simultaneously increase its power.

And that's why I like carbs, I've never had an issue with them and they allow you to make your bike go faster. They are customizable. And no I don't drive in sub freezing temperatures but in the winter in the morning when I would go to work the temp would be between 34-40 degrees. I never had any issues but was forced to install heated grips

Starting in the cold consists of pull choke, press start, drive away. What a hassle

[alex.s]

efi doesnt mean anything different except: more expensive, more accurate, easier to tune. you still turn a wrench. you might have to buy a power commander boo hoo. your bike doesnt come with alternate jets

[Jono]

^^

What he said. Get with the times Jiggles. We live in a digital world now. We should be tuning our bikes with computers. Not trial and error wasting hours trying to get our carbs running perfect. And even then they aren't going to be perfect.

[Jiggles]

Uh huh, what's a power commander cost? As much as an exhaust?

Yes I'd like to tune with a computer (yay ecotrons!) but let's be honest, how many people are going to buy a power commander for their 250?

Tuning carbs is cheap, tuning EFI is not, so suck on that!

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Uh huh, what's a power commander cost? As much as an exhaust?

Yes I'd like to tune with a computer (yay ecotrons!) but let's be honest, how many people are going to buy a power commander for their 250?

Tuning carbs is cheap, tuning EFI is not, so suck on that!

Yeah, it's cheap and it can be time consuming where as with EFI, people can tune on the fly. It's easier for those that are not so mechanically inclined these days.

Maybe you should convert your 650 to carbs.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Yeah, it's cheap and it can be time consuming where as with EFI, people can tune on the fly. It's easier for those that are not so mechanically inclined these days.

Maybe you should convert your 650 to carbs.

I don't have a 650

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't like EFI but on the ninja 250 I think carbs are better because you can squeeze more hp out of them for cheaper and it's a starter bike. It teaches you the fundamentals of riding as well as working on your bike.

And on larger bikes I don't think it makes a difference to squeeze out some more hp since they already have more than you can possibly use.

32hp vs 26hp is a bigger difference compared to 135hp vs 125hp

I will let you know though, that I'm going to do a ton more work on my 250 than I ever will on my 1000

[Racer x]

There is no way the factory ECU will be programmable . That sort of thing will not pass EPA

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Racer x

There is no way the factory ECU will be programmable . That sort of thing will not pass EPA

Yea it sounded far fetched to me but I haven't dug through the supergen blogs and posts

[Matz]

You make EFI sound like some form of witchcraft! lol
Most of the system is still mechanical, there's still a throttle body with a cable actuated butterfly valve (just like a carb) and there are other, cheaper versions of power commanders to tune it. As for not being able to programme the ecu, who says you need too? Many efi tuning kits basically add another control box that intercepts the connection between the ecu and the rest of the system.
I'm not being biased I own bikes with both carbs and efi, and carbs are deffinitely easier to work on, but if your only wanting a particular system to learn about engines and the like, buy a two-stroke.
The efi also adds another advantage as the light on the dash can be used to self diagnose most electrical faults. Although I'm not sure if the carburated ones have a similar system?
I've not ridden a carb'd Ninja 250r so I don't know what the difference in throttle response would be but as most of us pretty much ride our Ninjas on their limit, I'd say it probably isn't noticable.

[Racer x]

It's just something new to learn. I have been working on fuel injection and carbs for decades. Really it will be fine. And one thing no one mentions. The ethanol will not mess up the fuel injection parts. Carbs are made with brass jets. Ethanol attracts water . Water corrodes pilot jets . So sitting over winter is a big problem. Fuel injection has mostly stainless steel parts . So no problem.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Racer x

There is no way the factory ECU will be programmable . That sort of thing will not pass EPA

maybe the us one will be locked out but i heard the indonesian guys were reflashing their ecus after adding pods and an exhaust.

[Racer x]

Never under estamate what the Indonesian guys can do.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Never under estamate what the Indonesian guys can do.

i never underestimate anyone, lol.
i just thought it was a factory tool, but maybe they just hacked it.

[Somchai]

Jason do you have a link for a company in Indonesia doing remapping for the Ninjette?

Until now I only know from one company in India, look here: http://www.bikoholic.com/2012/03/ecu...ports-for.html

Have a safe ride

[Racer x]

The aftermarket will take care of everything . Adding larger throttle body's and programmable ECU's . But only if Kawasaki keeps the bike consistent. The aftermarket won't make cool stuff for a two or three year production run.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Jason do you have a link for a company in Indonesia doing remapping for the Ninjette?

Until now I only know from one company in India, look here: http://www.bikoholic.com/2012/03/ecu...ports-for.html

Have a safe ride

i cant seem to find the link...

[akima]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

I must disagree with you here. I commuted on my 250 almost every day when I had it: hot or cold, rain or shine, it made no difference to me. The ONLY thing I hated about the '09 I had was the choice to use carburetion in the U.S. market as opposed to EFI. Dealing with having to let the bike up for as long as ten minutes before it was rideable was a pain in the ass.

The stock EFI on my 2011 ninjette doesn't handle cold temps very well. I had lots of trouble starting the bike during the coldest part of last winter. There's another EFI ninjette owner on this forum who had the same issue. I'm pretty sure the EFI has a less than optimal mapping. I'll be getting a power commander (or similar) soon to resolve that issue and to allow my bike to make use of an area p full system.

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I personally think stock carbs on a 250 makes more sense than stock EFI. And the reason is that so many people love to mod these bikes. You can't mess with the intake or exhaust on stock EFI because it has preset maps that it uses. So instead of paying $80 to rejet you're now paying $500 to mess with the ECU.

$400 for the power commander. Less from some other brands.

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Some people like to ride their bikes like they drive their car. Never bringing a wrench near it and taking it to a dealer to get the oil changed. I'm not one of those people and going to EFI pushes people in that direction which is lame.

Not lame! I'm happy to have less maintenance. It's part of the reason I bought this bike. I enjoy riding.

Maybe you'd enjoy a lego set more than a motorcycle Jiggles! That way you could spend all your time messing around taking apart and rebuilding things without ever having to ride.

Originally Posted by Somchai

Jason do you have a link for a company in Indonesia doing remapping for the Ninjette?

Until now I only know from one company in India, look here: http://www.bikoholic.com/2012/03/ecu...ports-for.html

Have a safe ride

Oooh! Interesting info.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by akima

The stock EFI on my 2011 ninjette doesn't handle cold temps very well. I had lots of trouble starting the bike during the coldest part of last winter. There's another EFI ninjette owner on this forum who had the same issue. I'm pretty sure the EFI has a less than optimal mapping. I'll be getting a power commander (or similar) soon to resolve that issue and to allow my bike to make use of an area p full system.



$400 for the power commander. Less from some other brands.



*snip.

Maybe you'd enjoy a lego set more than a motorcycle Jiggles! That way you could spend all your time messing around taking apart and rebuilding things without ever having to ride.

1) I love legos. Jiggles can work on my bike, I'll play with legos.

2) I've only used the ecotrons efi at 50+ F. I bet it would do fine colder, I'll just have to play with the values a little. You'll likely have to do the same with the power commander. Get that exhaust already!!! And do some research for us to see if you can successfully remove your airbox and go with a pod filter or not!!!! I'm dying to know since there seems to be a debate about it.
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[Racer x]

I work on my bike all the time. I rode eight miles this year.

[akima]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

2) I've only used the ecotrons efi at 50+ F. I bet it would do fine colder, I'll just have to play with the values a little. You'll likely have to do the same with the power commander. Get that exhaust already!!! And do some research for us to see if you can successfully remove your airbox and go with a pod filter or not!!!! I'm dying to know since there seems to be a debate about it.
Posted via Mobile Device

I don't wanna be the one to try something out for the first time! I want to implement something someone else has already figured out!

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I work on my bike all the time. I rode eight miles this year.

yeah but how fast were you going during those 8 miles!

[akima]

Originally Posted by alex.s

yeah but how fast were you going during those 8 miles!

Prolly quicker than any other ninjette.org has ever been on their ninjette

[Jiggles]

People really like to take half my point and respond to it.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I work on my bike all the time. I rode eight miles this year.

undisputed highest average speed award winner!
Posted via Mobile Device

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

People really like to take half

Yup.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by akima

Prolly quicker than any other ninjette.org has ever been on their ninjette

Forum member Shiphtey has gone 122.4 to my 121.8. But let's see what happens in September.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by akima

I don't wanna be the one to try something out for the first time! I want to implement something someone else has already figured out!

true, well at least there's a PC map from yoshi for their full system with and without the snorkle. That should get you most of the way there in one tune-up
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[ajcadoo]

Why wont ABS make it to Cali?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ajcadoo

Why wont ABS make it to Cali?

Everyone is too busy smoking pot

Honestly I have no idea, I'm just going by what has happened on other Kawasaki bikes

I mean if the Ninja 1000 can't be equipped with ABS in CA then why would the 650 or 250 be able to? They very well could, I mean idk why they won't allow it on the 1000 so I can't say why they wouldn't allow it on the 650 or 250.

CA is just stupid, full of stupid laws and stupid limitations

[Alex]

Nobody knows for sure if it will or won't. Kawi didn't bring the ABS model in as a cali-compliant bike for the 650 or the 1000. They still sell separate "49-state" bikes and "cali" bikes, and they didn't go through the hassle of certifying the ABS model as a cali bike.

The hope is that they choose to go through that trouble for the 250, or perhaps just call everything a 50-state bike, but we won't know for a few months.

EDIT: what jiggly said

[Polygonnix]

So I was talking to a Kawasaki Canada rep and was told that the 2013 Model shown is strictly an Asian Market, and that to stay tuned for changes that will come out in September.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Polygonnix

So I was talking to a Kawasaki Canada rep and was told that the 2013 Model shown is strictly an Asian Market, and that to stay tuned for changes that will come out in September.

Yes we know, they are making a ninja 300 special for us

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110228

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

As I stated, I did ride it with the choke on after a while. It still didn't help the situation. The bike sputtered with the choke the same as it did without it. Maybe relative humiddity has something to do with it as well. I just know late fall and early winter mornings caused me to hate the carbs. I didn't care for them much to begin with. Maybe my particular bike had an issue. The 84 RX-7 I had years ago used carbs and it had similar problems in cold weather, choke used or not.

i never had a problem with the carbs after i rejetted them.
the bike started just fine with choke and riding off, but my bike never warmed up...

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Yes we know, they are making a ninja 300 special for us

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110228

his first post was a troll post...
i think he'll fit in just fine, around here

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by lgk

i never had a problem with the carbs after i rejetted them.
the bike started just fine with choke and riding off, but my bike never warmed up...

Cool story. I hate carbs. I shouldn't have to do anything to any vehicle to make it function better than the factory. EFI for me on new bikes. Obviously if there are any older bikes out there that I decide I want, I will have to deal with carbs. If and when that time comes, I will deal with carbs again. I can guarantee, however, that the bike(s) in question won't be used as daily commuters in a cold environment.