Is It The Battery Or...?

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 08:46 AM

So when I took my ninja out of winterization this year, it seemed like I needed a new battery. It could be jump started, but even a battery tender wouldn't get the bike to start. So I bought a new battery.

Fast forward 4 months later and I'm getting the same symptoms: when I push starter button the lights come on and I get the fast click sound but it won't start. This happens even if I fully charge battery with Battery Tender. I can jump start the bike and it will start and run fine, but will not startup on it's own next time.

So I took the multimeter to the battery, and this is what I get:

-Fresh off battery tender, bike turned off, battery reads: 13.0v
-Immediately after pushing the starter button once (click click click): 11.7v
-If I jump start it, the voltage while idling is: 14.5v
-After I shut the bike off: 13.3v

That all seems to indicate the battery is ok? The only thing I can find is from this article it says it should be reading 13.5-13.8 when idling, but I'm not showing any other signs of a bad regulator (no popped bulbs, the 14.5 i get is pretty consistent and only varies between 14.5 and 14.6.

Any ideas?

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 08:58 AM

Battery is toast.

Check the voltage while pushing the start button. The big drop in voltage from resting to after trying to start tells me the battery has no capacity left.

What brand of tender are you using? The cheap ones tend to kill batteries rather than help them.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:13 AM

It's the Battery Tender Jr, but I have not used it at all on this battery until the bike wouldn't start. I ride daily, so only use tender in the winter.

Any idea how a battery could die in a single summer? It was a non-name brand off Amazon so it wouldn't completely surprise me, but I want to make sure it's not something else on the bike killing batteries.

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

It's the Battery Tender Jr, but I have not used it at all on this battery until the bike wouldn't start. I ride daily, so only use tender in the winter.

Any idea how a battery could die in a single summer? It was a non-name brand off Amazon so it wouldn't completely surprise me, but I want to make sure it's not something else on the bike killing batteries.

That.

Get a good name brand battery that is AGM rather than a wet cell.

Get an ammeter with at least a 10 amp rating and hook it inline on the positive terminal. IE, volt/ammeter goes on the positive battery terminal, other lead goes on the positive battery terminal. See what the amperage draw is.

Any accessories?

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:18 AM

The battery is AGM: https://www.amazon.com/ThrottleX-Bat...1450660&sr=8-7

No accessories on the bike

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:22 AM

What's the amp rating on your multimeter? might be a good time to do the draw/amp test to see if there's a draw before you replace it.

Also, check the voltage while pushing the start button. Should be at least 10.5 volts.

Let's start with those before you replace the battery. Would suck if you bought another one and had the same issue.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:32 AM

Just did amp test, looks like it's drawing 16.5 amps if I just turn the ignition on, but don't start the bike. Is that a normal amount?

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:35 AM

Voltage while pushing the start button drops to 6.7

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Just did amp test, looks like it's drawing 16.5 amps if I just turn the ignition on, but don't start the bike. Is that a normal amount?

Need to do it with the key off because that's how you store it.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:36 AM

Ah it read 0 with the key off

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Ah it read 0 with the key off

If it read 0 amps, try the milliamp scale.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:42 AM

Still 0. It shouldn't be drawing power with the key off right?

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Still 0. It shouldn't be drawing power with the key off right?

Right! That's what we want.

Last test: Voltage check while pressing start.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Right! That's what we want.

Last test: Voltage check while pressing start.

6.5-7v

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

6.5-7v

Battery is junk.

Sorry! Time for a new one. There's no drain on it so if you continue to eat batteries, it's the tender or cheap batteries. Try a good name brand this time.

Personally, I never use them and my batteries last 5-6 years. I just start and run my bikes at least once a month for 5-10 minutes.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 09:56 AM

Thanks for the debugging help, guess it's time to test out the warranty for that battery to use as a spare... What battery do you use?

VaFish · August 17th, 2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Just did amp test, looks like it's drawing 16.5 amps if I just turn the ignition on, but don't start the bike. Is that a normal amount?

Doesn't sound right to me. That's an awful lot of power to be drawing doing nothing.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Doesn't sound right to me. That's an awful lot of power to be drawing doing nothing.

That was with key on, so it was lighting the gauges/tail light, or you mean it's too much even for that little?

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 10:08 AM

Ya know, he might be on to something. Max stator output is only 25 amps. If you're drawing 16 without the engine running, that does seem a bit excessive. Weird thing is charging voltage seems correct. Headlight is 55w, so 5 amps or thereabouts. Other lights should only be a couple amps since they are low wattage.

Might be worthwhile to unplug the regulator and check the amperage with the key on again. Short possibly?

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Might be worthwhile to unplug the regulator and check the amperage with the key on again. Short possibly?

I unplugged the regulator and got the exact same reading (16.5)

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 10:46 AM

Might be time to start pulling fuses until you find the offender.

I don't have a pregen manual handy for a schematic, sorry!

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 10:48 AM

Also did a Diode test on Regulator, numbers seem consistent. For future Internet reference, since I couldn't find this, here is the location of the regulator on a pre-gen ninja 250

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 11:07 AM

Pulled the fuses one by one... using this diagram, the only two that made a difference in draw (which makes sense) are Fuse 3 and Fuse 4

Fuse 3 removed brought it down to 11.4 amps
Fuse 4 removed brought it down to 5.7 amps

That seems to indicate that Fuse 4 is using almost the entire 10 amps the fuse would allow? So maybe a short with the lighting since ninja250.org says Fuse 4 is for:

License Plate Lamp
Brake Switch - Rear
Brake Switch - Front
Ignition Switch
Dash Illumination Lamps (Gauge Cluster)

jkv45 · August 17th, 2016, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Voltage while pushing the start button drops to 6.7

There's your smokin' gun. Battery is junk.

Confirms what Racin' was saying. Really doesn't matter how old the battery is or what the voltage is after charging or while resting, all that matters is what you get when under load. A good battery should hold 10V or more while cranking.

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv45

There's your smokin' gun. Battery is junk.

Confirms what Racin' was saying. Really doesn't matter how old the battery is or what the voltage is after charging or while resting, all that matters is what you get when under load. A good battery should hold 10V or more while cranking.

Other issue is 16.5 amp draw with the key merely being on. Stator only good for 20-25 amps. Seems excessive as someone else pointed out.

10 amps on just brake and dash lights? Way excessive. That's 120 watts!

JohnnyBravo · August 17th, 2016, 11:24 AM

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 11:29 AM

Quote:

10 amps on just brake and dash lights? Way excessive. That's 120 watts!

Any idea what could cause that? The previous owner did swap out the taillights so I can see some electrical tape type wiring going on by the rear turn signals, but they all still work and I would assume a short would blow the fuse? Everything on the front of the bike electrical wise appears stock and in fine shape.

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Any idea what could cause that? The previous owner did swap out the taillights so I can see some electrical tape type wiring going on by the rear turn signals, but they all still work and I would assume a short would blow the fuse? Everything on the front of the bike electrical wise appears stock and in fine shape.

I would investigate those. Aftermarket lights might have higher wattage bulbs in them.

Or, the wiring might be total crap.

Thinking more on this, look for ballast resistors if they are LED signals. Might be improperly installed causing a draw?

jkv45 · August 17th, 2016, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Any idea what could cause that? The previous owner did swap out the taillights so I can see some electrical tape type wiring going on by the rear turn signals, but they all still work and I would assume a short would blow the fuse? Everything on the front of the bike electrical wise appears stock and in fine shape.

Are you certain you have the meter in the proper range and are reading it correctly?

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv45

Are you certain you have the meter in the proper range and are reading it correctly?

Never 100%, but I think so... I have this model:

Measuring volts by turning it to DCv

Measuring amps by turning it to DCmA (and switching leads)

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoru

Never 100%, but I think so... I have this model:

Measuring volts by turning it to DCv

Measuring amps by turning it to DCmA (and switching leads)

DCmA is milli amps, not amps.

DC Amps is DC10A.

Which was it?

PS, there is no way for that meter to show 16.5 amps. It maxes at 10. So, it was only 16.5 milliamps, which is no problem at all.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

DCmA is milli amps, not amps.

DC Amps is DC10A.

Which was it?

PS, there is no way for that meter to show 16.5 amps. It maxes at 10. So, it was only 16.5 milliamps, which is no problem at all.

It was set to Milliamps, doh! So that means it's only 1.6 amps being pulled?

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 12:18 PM

No. Only 16.5 milliamps.

There is nothing wrong.

Time for a new battery!

RacinNinja · August 17th, 2016, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkv45

Are you certain you have the meter in the proper range and are reading it correctly?

BINGO!! Nice one.

momoru · August 17th, 2016, 12:51 PM

Thanks again guys!

August 17th, 2016, 08:46 AM	#1
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Is It The Battery Or...? So when I took my ninja out of winterization this year, it seemed like I needed a new battery. It could be jump started, but even a battery tender wouldn't get the bike to start. So I bought a new battery. Fast forward 4 months later and I'm getting the same symptoms: when I push starter button the lights come on and I get the fast click sound but it won't start. This happens even if I fully charge battery with Battery Tender. I can jump start the bike and it will start and run fine, but will not startup on it's own next time. So I took the multimeter to the battery, and this is what I get: -Fresh off battery tender, bike turned off, battery reads: 13.0v -Immediately after pushing the starter button once (click click click): 11.7v -If I jump start it, the voltage while idling is: 14.5v -After I shut the bike off: 13.3v That all seems to indicate the battery is ok? The only thing I can find is from this article it says it should be reading 13.5-13.8 when idling, but I'm not showing any other signs of a bad regulator (no popped bulbs, the 14.5 i get is pretty consistent and only varies between 14.5 and 14.6. Any ideas?

August 17th, 2016, 08:58 AM	#2
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	Battery is toast. Check the voltage while pushing the start button. The big drop in voltage from resting to after trying to start tells me the battery has no capacity left. What brand of tender are you using? The cheap ones tend to kill batteries rather than help them. __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

August 17th, 2016, 09:22 AM	#6
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	What's the amp rating on your multimeter? might be a good time to do the draw/amp test to see if there's a draw before you replace it. Also, check the voltage while pushing the start button. Should be at least 10.5 volts. Let's start with those before you replace the battery. Would suck if you bought another one and had the same issue. __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!

August 17th, 2016, 09:56 AM	#16
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Thanks for the debugging help, guess it's time to test out the warranty for that battery to use as a spare... What battery do you use?
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

August 17th, 2016, 10:08 AM	#19
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	Ya know, he might be on to something. Max stator output is only 25 amps. If you're drawing 16 without the engine running, that does seem a bit excessive. Weird thing is charging voltage seems correct. Headlight is 55w, so 5 amps or thereabouts. Other lights should only be a couple amps since they are low wattage. Might be worthwhile to unplug the regulator and check the amperage with the key on again. Short possibly? __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!

August 17th, 2016, 09:13 AM	#3
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	It's the Battery Tender Jr, but I have not used it at all on this battery until the bike wouldn't start. I ride daily, so only use tender in the winter. Any idea how a battery could die in a single summer? It was a non-name brand off Amazon so it wouldn't completely surprise me, but I want to make sure it's not something else on the bike killing batteries.

August 17th, 2016, 09:18 AM	#5
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	The battery is AGM: https://www.amazon.com/ThrottleX-Bat...1450660&sr=8-7 No accessories on the bike

August 17th, 2016, 09:32 AM	#7
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Just did amp test, looks like it's drawing 16.5 amps if I just turn the ignition on, but don't start the bike. Is that a normal amount?

August 17th, 2016, 09:35 AM	#8
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Voltage while pushing the start button drops to 6.7

August 17th, 2016, 09:36 AM	#10
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Ah it read 0 with the key off

August 17th, 2016, 09:42 AM	#12
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Still 0. It shouldn't be drawing power with the key off right?

August 17th, 2016, 10:46 AM	#21
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	Might be time to start pulling fuses until you find the offender. I don't have a pregen manual handy for a schematic, sorry! __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!

August 17th, 2016, 10:48 AM	#22
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Also did a Diode test on Regulator, numbers seem consistent. For future Internet reference, since I couldn't find this, here is the location of the regulator on a pre-gen ninja 250

August 17th, 2016, 11:07 AM	#23
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Pulled the fuses one by one... using this diagram, the only two that made a difference in draw (which makes sense) are Fuse 3 and Fuse 4 Fuse 3 removed brought it down to 11.4 amps Fuse 4 removed brought it down to 5.7 amps That seems to indicate that Fuse 4 is using almost the entire 10 amps the fuse would allow? So maybe a short with the lighting since ninja250.org says Fuse 4 is for: License Plate Lamp Brake Switch - Rear Brake Switch - Front Ignition Switch Dash Illumination Lamps (Gauge Cluster)

August 17th, 2016, 11:24 AM	#26
JohnnyBravo Certifiable nontundrum Name: Harper Location: NC Milkshake stand Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 SE NINJA 300 Posts: Too much. MOTM - Sep '13, Sep '16	__________________________________________________

August 17th, 2016, 12:18 PM	#33
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	No. Only 16.5 milliamps. There is nothing wrong. Time for a new battery! __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

August 17th, 2016, 12:51 PM	#35
momoru ninjette.org member Name: Phil Location: Pittsburgh Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Ninja 250R Posts: 60	Thanks again guys!
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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