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Old October 23rd, 2021, 08:59 PM   #41
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However it is accomplished it IS A WIN ! well done Drew !
Yes plastic connectors can be a pain I remember fighting a headlight bulb connector on one of my cars because the plastic connector would not fit that brand of headlight.... the car was ford and the bulb was GM if I remember right
in the 1970 era , anyway i finally had to cut the plastic connector into 3 pieces to get it to plug in... but it worked ! LOL.... talk about rinky dink !
I know you don't like to cobble stuff together, but sometimes that is necessary,to get the machine working again !
ingenuity is where it's at ! if your going to fix something fix it right, if your going to cobble something together to get it to work do it right too, take the extra time to do it right even if your going to replace it when the part gets here..... the old adage "if your going to do it, do it right" is a standard to live by..... ( unfortunately, I don't always follow that LOL)
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Old October 25th, 2021, 07:45 AM   #42
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I tell you what, I try to live by that standard but there's only so much one can do After screwing around and making these connectors work I'm happy to have a factory-crimped line coming from EB to replace what I was able to piece together. I crimped and soldered it, but I think the combination of my Channellock crimper and my cheapo Weller soldering iron has made for a weak link in an otherwise good charging system. I don't want to rely on that for my brand new stator and r/r to talk with each other. I think I will be investing in a better crimper at minimum moving forward.

At any rate, I did get a test ride in (around the block) yesterday. Voltage never hit 15, it probably topped just a little over 14.5 and bottoms out at 13.4. So it's working. Since it sat for the last couple weeks, it was a little temperamental. I think I'll hit the carbs once more and ensure they're seated well against the intake before I go out for a rip this Friday. I need to finally break this thing in on my local canyon; all I've done on it so far is Palomar. It needs front springs and a rear shock bad, and I can't wait to swap on a set of dirt bars I have sitting in the garage. I'm sick of not being able to go full lock right with those silly stock clip-ons. The only thing holding me back from that is ordering all the cables and a new longer brakeline as that will probably run more $$ than my suspension upgrades combined.

So until I get time this week, she sits in the corner:
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Old October 25th, 2021, 11:19 AM   #43
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Nice looking bike there Drew !
there is something about motorcycles that I do not mind sinking money into at all.... when it comes to cars I hate to do that but Bikes, no problem !
LOL I guess it's because I get enjoyment from a bike and a car is just work...
....
I just dropped $500 bucks on the Triumph and I haven't lost a bit of sleep over it ! LOL
and I still haven't put the back rack on the Ninja... which will allow me to put something to carry stuff on that bike...which will be a welcome addition.
....
with some people it's spiffing up cars or boats... with me it's motorcycles I guess.... HAHAHAHAHA
....
we have had some crazy weather here tha last week ...it was forecast for Rain all week here, but right now we have sunshine and mostly clear skies...
but after the downpour yesterday it's definitely a good thing !
theirs snow on Mt. Shasta again..... as it was a naked mountain before.
crazy fall weather !
....
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Old October 25th, 2021, 01:46 PM   #44
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Yup, money spent on two wheels is harder to track than money spent fixing the car. Somehow a different set of rules apply there. Hopefully you don't get washed out up there, after reading the news this morning it sounds like NorCal is getting more rain than it's had in decades. We're even getting some clouds and drizzle down here in the desert.
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Old October 25th, 2021, 02:41 PM   #45
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well, where I'm at looks good ! we needed the rain bad but I fear the Redding area might have been hit hard because it really pored here !
we had puddles 3" deep in places we only have a small puddle ! LOL
but that should bring up the lake levels which is desperately needed !
....
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Old October 26th, 2021, 12:17 AM   #46
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Yup, money spent on two wheels is harder to track than money spent fixing the car. Somehow a different set of rules apply there.
Reminds me of...
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Old October 26th, 2021, 02:06 AM   #47
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HAHAHAH SO TRUE !

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Old October 26th, 2021, 08:41 AM   #48
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put another way......
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Old October 26th, 2021, 08:46 AM   #49
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or another....
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Old October 26th, 2021, 09:58 AM   #50
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The above ^^^ is why I'm making a slow transition from 650 to 250... smaller bikes are cheaper and just as fun. I'm so glad I didn't go from the 650 to a 600 or 750; chains/tires/broken parts just keep draining that bank acct.
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Old October 26th, 2021, 03:40 PM   #51
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Yeah, I used to track my CBR600RR, and it needed tyres, chains, clutches on regular basis.

Then I wanted to go racing and spend +40 days @ track per year. Extrapolated from my previous costs on CBR, yikes!!! On Ninja 250, one set of tyres will last entire season!!! And they're so much cheaper as I could get MotoAmerica JuniorCup takeoffs for nothing!!!
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Old August 23rd, 2022, 07:38 AM   #52
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I'm back with somewhat related issues. My headlight is not working and I think there are a couple of possibilities as to why.
Hi and Lo went out at the same time, so I doubt the bulb is at fault. First things first I checked the fuse. It was good. Replaced w/ a new 10a to no avail. Pulled the bulb which looked good and tested good, and replaced to no avail. So that's done.
I checked voltage at the headlight plug with the engine running: no volts. Engine still running, checked at the hi/lo switch on the left hand control: no volts.
Here is where I get murky: it seems the headlight relay is built into the fusebox on these bikes. I am unsure how to diagnose this. I popped the back plate off the fuse block and checked for voltage moving through the headlight fuse and I don't seem to be getting power there, but I'm not sure I'm testing that properly. I need to understand how to properly test that.
So I have a couple of ideas. I was having an odd charging problem after I installed my new r/r and stator only to find it was caused by the 3-wire plug to the stator coming un-clicked from the unit itself (duh, that keeps happening to this bike!). Rectified that little issue, and now the battery doesn't die after a ride. Could the unplugged r/r have fried the headlight relay?
The other thing I'm thinking about is: how long has my headlight been out?? I don't really notice when it's not working as I only ride during the day, could it have been out since I installed the new r/r? The new unit only uses the three yellow, one black ground and one white hot, whereas the stock r/r used the third yel/red wire coming off the starter relay. Does that wire need power to activate the relay?? I've looked at wiring diagrams but I'm not an electrical guy... I can see it when it's explained but I second guess my own understanding.
I've been going through this old thread: https://forums.ninja250.org/posting....&t=88459&tro=1 which has gotten me started, but I'm not sure what to test next.

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Old August 23rd, 2022, 08:29 AM   #53
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Don't know why people keep on re-drawing Kawasaki's wiring diagrams. They invariably make mistakes or leave out important info. Like colour of wires. Here's more informative diagram to use:



Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
whereas the stock r/r used the third yel/red wire coming off the starter relay.
Shouldn't be any connection between solenoid's yel/red wire to RR. If it's connected on your bike, remove connection. The yel/red is used as ground for headlight-relay's activation coil (in series with solenoid's coil).

Headlight relay is activated by one of stator yellow wires. Meaning headlight relay is not triggered until it gets power from stator. Meaning stator won't get any power until engine is spinning.

1. when re-doing RR, did you split off one of yellow stator wires to headlight-relay to turn on headlight?

2. measure for AC on this wire as part of stator tests: A-B, B-C, C-A

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Old August 23rd, 2022, 08:36 AM   #54
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1. when re-doing RR, did you split off one of yellow power wires to headlight-relay to turn on headlight?
THIS is it! What would this look like? I knew it had to be something like that... the relay simply isn't being told to activate. Do I run a jumper wire somewhere/somehow??
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Old August 23rd, 2022, 09:05 AM   #55
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Yup, run a fork off one of the 3 yellow AC wires into the junction box to feed the relay. In the OEM wiring, there's a branch between the stator and R/R that goes to the junction box, as shown in Danno's pic. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/atta...9&d=1460932760 is a good colorized version of the diagram, where you can see the yellow wire forking off.

If you check continuity between the yellow wire at the j-box and the original yellow stator wires, you can figure out which of the three is the one that forks. You could then feed into that at the stator or R/R end, as opposed to running a new wire to the j-box.


This is how the headlight stays off until you start the bike. When you turn the engine over and it starts generating AC, it triggers the relay. The relay's output also feeds back into that (through the other diode), so it will keep itself triggered until you turn the key off. Note that this circuit is entirely to delay turning the headlight on. It's not the same as aftermarket headlight kits that use a relay to do a better job of feeding power to the bulb (since I've seen people get confused by this in the past).


The FH016 off some of the bigger Ninjas is nice in that it has pigtails coming out of it. You can chop off the OEM connectors and put whatever you want on it (as opposed to having to use Furukawa connectors), and it includes a 6th wire which is an output for the headlight relay, so you can feed that right back into the stock wiring harness even if you completely replace the stator-R/R wiring.

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Old August 23rd, 2022, 09:12 AM   #56
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Yup, run a fork off one of the 3 yellow AC wires into the junction box to feed the relay. In the OEM wiring, there's a branch between the stator and R/R that goes to the junction box, as shown in Danno's pic.
If you check continuity between the yellow wire at the j-box and the original yellow stator wires, you can figure out which of the three is the one that forks. You could then feed into that at the stator or R/R end, as opposed to running a new wire to the j-box.
Thank you, this is starting to make sense. I'll be checking those three wires to see which one has continuity to the fusebox. This is very helpful.
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Old August 23rd, 2022, 11:40 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
THIS is it! What would this look like? I knew it had to be something like that... the relay simply isn't being told to activate. Do I run a jumper wire somewhere/somehow??
Quote:
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Thank you, this is starting to make sense. I'll be checking those three wires to see which one has continuity to the fusebox. This is very helpful.
Yeah, there should already be yel wire leaving junction box. Trace it away from junction-box and see where it ends up. It's probably not connected to anything. Or maybe original RR's connector if you still have it.

Easy way is to attach to one of 3 yellow-wire terminals going into RR. Would've been easy in beginning before crimping terminal. If you have extra terminal, you can remove original from connector and crimp both wires to new one.

Or do 3-way knot.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old August 30th, 2022, 11:09 AM   #58
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I'm getting closer to a solution on this, but I'm just not there yet. Here is what it's doing:
All these voltages are read with the engine running.
I am reading 14v across the headlamp fuse, regardless of a jumper wire being placed between the stator and the one yellow wire going to the junction box.
I am reading 0v coming off the blue/yellow wire coming out of the junction box with no jumper in place.
When I jump from a 12v source to the yellow r/r signal wire going into the junction box, it spins the starter motor. This seems to follow, given the wiring diagram.
When this jumper is in place (and the engine and starter motor are running simultaneously), I read about 0.4v at the blue/yellow wire coming out of the junction box.
Obviously, I am reading 0v at the hi/lo handlebar switch.
Running a jumper to activate the headlight relay makes sense to me as I study the wiring diagram. Reading 14v across the headlight fuse makes me think I have voltage attempting to get to the headlight, but it's not making it out of the junction box. Is this a malfunctioning relay? That's all I can deduce from the wiring diagram, but why does the starter motor spin any time I send 12v through the yellow signal wire? Aren't those relays independent of eachother save for the yellow/red wire going between them? How is my jumper doing anything different from the factory wiring?

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Old August 30th, 2022, 02:42 PM   #59
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but why does the starter motor spin any time I send 12v through the yellow signal wire? Aren't those relays independent of eachother save for the yellow/red wire going between them? How is my jumper doing anything different from the factory wiring?

Your back feeding 12v power thru Yellow wire in to Start Relay at same time
1: A bad relay
2: A bad junction box
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Old August 30th, 2022, 09:57 PM   #60
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TLDR; You need to test with actual voltages experienced by equipment in field. Read why below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
I'm getting closer to a solution on this, but I'm just not there yet. Here is what it's doing:
All these voltages are read with the engine running.
I am reading 14v across the headlamp fuse, regardless of a jumper wire being placed between the stator and the one yellow wire going to the junction box.
Yes, let's take this in sequence

A. Power comes out of battery and goes across 30a main-fuse through wht wire to ignition-switch.

- Ignition-switch ON, sends power out brn wire switch to junction-box
- brn wire goes across headlight fuse 1st, that's why you're measuring 14v at headlight fuse. It's just sitting there waiting, not trying anything shifty...



Quote:
I am reading 0v coming off the blue/yellow wire coming out of the junction box with no jumper in place.
When I jump from a 12v source to the yellow r/r signal wire going into the junction box, it spins the starter motor. This seems to follow, given the wiring diagram.
B. Without headlight-relay activation, you'd have no power coming out of junction-box on blu/yel wire.



C. Applying 12v to yel wire @ junction-box will have power going through headlight-relay activation-coil and then through starter-solenoid activation-coil and running starter. Similar to if you held down start-button... Starter-solenoid activation-coil provides ground-path for power going through headlight-relay's activation coil. If power is going through 2-coils in series, how much is each coil actually getting?

Why doesn't headlight-relay activate? There's power going through it?

You're skipping ahead. Measure actual conditions in the wild so you can replicate in lab setting:

Quote:
2. measure for AC on this wire as part of stator tests: A-B, B-C, C-A
With engine running, measure AC volts across each pair of yellow stator wires:

A-B, volts = ???
B-C, volts = ???
C-A, volts = ???

These numbers will tell you everything you need to know to fix this.

If you've actually connected yellow stator wire to junction box, then headlight-relay may be 1st one we've seen fail. PM me address and I send you spare junction-box.

BTW - there needs to be bleed-resistor and capacitor on headlight-relay in junction-box...

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Old August 31st, 2022, 08:45 AM   #61
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Wow ! well done Danno even I could follow that !
I think at this stage I would just call the Headlight relay/starter relay bad and replace it with a known good one and see if that fixes it... if not take it back out
and put the old one back in and continue trying to find the guilty party.
....
the problem is we are beyond just a failed component because of a added few
non stock components which may mean it's just not hooked up right
so curcuit tracing is the only way to get it to function .....
step by step, trace the power to it's stopping point and find out what is stopping it from continuing.
....
this is not an easy electrical problem !
.....
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Old August 31st, 2022, 01:33 PM   #62
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....
this is not an easy electrical problem !
.....
Bob...
Nah, you got it Bob! I just want to confirm for sure it's bad headlight relay. Never seen one fail before. I've always suspected it may be weak point in design. After starter-solenoid, it has to deal with highest power demands, and continuously too. Not momentary like starter-solenoid.

With such high power going across headlight relay, there's bound to be some arcing and burning-up of relay contacts. A capacitor across contacts and bleed resistor would absorb that high-voltage spike and extend life of relay contacts.
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Old August 31st, 2022, 02:09 PM   #63
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probably the best alternative is just take the high energy sucking headlights out and install LED lights....
I remember running a bike without the battery decades ago it ran fine
however I stayed too long in town and on the way home I turned on the headlight and it promptly Killed everything electrical... turned the headlight back off and it took off like normal..... that night I put the old battery back in there even though it only produced 8 vdc ...but because of that battery asorbing the altenator pulses I could use my headlight again....it took almost 3 months before I could get a battery from K-mart the cheapest one I could find !
.... I don't know how or why the selenium rectifier lasted through that... I expected it to burn out and leave me stranded along the road. but it never did.
at the time I was thinking all I really needed was a beefy capacitor to replace the battery with ! LOL..... but I didn't have one. I found one the same day I came home with the new battery and almost put it on the bike ...it was a start capacitor for a 2hp electric motor.... I have no idea if that would have worked or burn out the alternator and everything else ...so I just put in the new battery and called it good !!!
now days with the newer Regulators that cost a fortune, you have to re wire alot of stuff to go battery-less.... which in my younger years, was very desirable.. it's nice to not have to worry about the battery being charged !
but with no kick starter on these new bikes you need a battery and good charging system anyway... LOL
.... I snagged a wiring diagram for the 750 Triumph that showed how to go battery-less.... but the New pointless ignition needs 10vdc to fire the sparkplugs.... so I ain't going to do that ! (it's hard enough to Kick that monster through to get it started and right now it starts 1st kick...so I am not messing with it ! HAHAHAHAHA
.....
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Old August 31st, 2022, 02:57 PM   #64
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Probably the best alternative in my mind is to quit screwing around with this stupid thing and ride it. It's running great and the new charging system is working perfectly; the only issue is the headlight doesn't work. I can get 12v to the light w/o going through that stupid junction box and possibly fried relay.
Not to mention, I don't like how the stock relay controls the headlight. I would rather run a relay that turns the headlight on with the ignition. I have the 12v accessory source right there at the front of the bike. I can run a simple relay from that w/ an inline fuse to the blue/yel wire at the 9pin connector under the tank, then use the brown ign wire to signal the relay. Done. And I would consider that an improvement.
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Old August 31st, 2022, 07:29 PM   #65
Bob KellyIII
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sounds like a real good solution to me ! go for it !
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Old September 1st, 2022, 05:48 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
Probably the best alternative in my mind is to quit screwing around with this stupid thing and ride it. It's running great and the new charging system is working perfectly; the only issue is the headlight doesn't work. I can get 12v to the light w/o going through that stupid junction box and possibly fried relay.
Not to mention, I don't like how the stock relay controls the headlight. I would rather run a relay that turns the headlight on with the ignition. I have the 12v accessory source right there at the front of the bike. I can run a simple relay from that w/ an inline fuse to the blue/yel wire at the 9pin connector under the tank, then use the brown ign wire to signal the relay. Done. And I would consider that an improvement.
The reason why head light run directly off alternator is due to high amp draw as you want to keep amp draw down to min for starting and law req the headlight to be on at all times with the engine running that is why their setup this way with small battery or direct connection off large battery.

The ignition switches were not designed to handle that kind of amperage load and P.S. once the bike has started the relay switch to on precision and head light switch over to battery as long you leave ignition switch in the on position and use the kill switch to stop the engine.
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Old September 2nd, 2022, 05:52 PM   #67
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Well I had time today to wire up a relay. I'm happy now, and it's running tops best of all. Too bad it's 108f outside.

Here's my next one: what relay should I look for to correct this slow rate?

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old September 9th, 2022, 04:32 PM   #68
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Got this issue fixed; just needed one of those cheap 3-way adjustable led signal relays. I found a 2pack for $5 and it works perfectly fine.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GWOL2YB9W9o?feature=share

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Old September 10th, 2022, 03:27 AM   #69
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Got this issue fixed; just needed one of those cheap 3-way adjustable led signal relays. I found a 2pack for $5 and it works perfectly fine.
Yes with LED turn signal you need LED flasher
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Old October 20th, 2022, 07:01 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
Probably the best alternative in my mind is to quit screwing around with this stupid thing and ride it. It's running great and the new charging system is working perfectly; the only issue is the headlight doesn't work. I can get 12v to the light w/o going through that stupid junction box and possibly fried relay.
Not to mention, I don't like how the stock relay controls the headlight. I would rather run a relay that turns the headlight on with the ignition. I have the 12v accessory source right there at the front of the bike. I can run a simple relay from that w/ an inline fuse to the blue/yel wire at the 9pin connector under the tank, then use the brown ign wire to signal the relay. Done. And I would consider that an improvement.
I'm late to the party, but the junction box actually has an unused output from the headlight fuse that doesn't go through the relay. It just turns on and off with the ignition. I was going to use it when I did my Koito bi-LED (similar to a HID) swap. I think it may have been one of the corner pins in the connector, but I need to find my notes on it...
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Old October 20th, 2022, 08:26 AM   #71
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Hey Bill, interesting point. I wound up coming up with a rather elegant solution for this that did not involve any cutting of factory wiring: all I had to do was de-pin one of the ignition wires from a 4-pin connector near the front of the bike and wire in a Y with a 10amp fuse and a relay. Power comes off the 12v acc at the front of the bike and it's only running an LED headlight so everything is great now. I prefer the light coming on with the ignition now, and overall performance seems great. I should have taken photos when I was in there.

If you have details on this other output I would like to check it out. I'm always open to improvement!
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Old October 21st, 2022, 09:36 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
Not to mention, I don't like how the stock relay controls the headlight. I would rather run a relay that turns the headlight on with the ignition. I have the 12v accessory source right there at the front of the bike. I can run a simple relay from that w/ an inline fuse to the blue/yel wire at the 9pin connector under the tank, then use the brown ign wire to signal the relay. Done. And I would consider that an improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrewski86 View Post
Hey Bill, interesting point. I wound up coming up with a rather elegant solution for this that did not involve any cutting of factory wiring: all I had to do was de-pin one of the ignition wires from a 4-pin connector near the front of the bike and wire in a Y with a 10amp fuse and a relay. Power comes off the 12v acc at the front of the bike and it's only running an LED headlight so everything is great now. I prefer the light coming on with the ignition now, and overall performance seems great. I should have taken photos when I was in there.

If you have details on this other output I would like to check it out. I'm always open to improvement!
I ended up making a whole new post about it, figuring it would be good info to have on hand. Headlight delay relay bypass

It's pretty similar to what you're doing, but simplified a little. If ACC is always hot, that should mean it's powered by the white wire coming from the MAIN fuse. Using ACC (with a relay triggered by the brown wire) would probably have slightly less loss than powering it directly from the HEAD circuit (which is fed by the brown wire coming from the ignition switch). However, the HEAD circuit is what directly powers the OEM headlight, so you're still at least as good as stock if you were to just move the blue/yellow wire to the other pin at the junction box (and bypassing the relay stuff is probably a tiny improvement itself).

One drawback to your approach is that the ACC fuse is now responsible for the headlight as well as any actual accessories you have plugged into those leads. If your heated gloves or phone charger blow the fuse, you lose your headlight too. Not necessarily a big issue for you personally, but I think it's less than ideal for general audience advice.
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Old October 21st, 2022, 10:11 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
I ended up making a whole new post about it, figuring it would be good info to have on hand. Headlight delay relay bypass

It's pretty similar to what you're doing, but simplified a little. If ACC is always hot, that should mean it's powered by the white wire coming from the MAIN fuse. Using ACC (with a relay triggered by the brown wire) would probably have slightly less loss than powering it directly from the HEAD circuit (which is fed by the brown wire coming from the ignition switch). However, the HEAD circuit is what directly powers the OEM headlight, so you're still at least as good as stock if you were to just move the blue/yellow wire to the other pin at the junction box (and bypassing the relay stuff is probably a tiny improvement itself).

One drawback to your approach is that the ACC fuse is now responsible for the headlight as well as any actual accessories you have plugged into those leads. If your heated gloves or phone charger blow the fuse, you lose your headlight too. Not necessarily a big issue for you personally, but I think it's less than ideal for general audience advice.
Thanks Bill, I already subscribed to your new thread! I think you're right, and I will no doubt do what you are suggesting once I digest it and decide to take the time to dive back into it. I agree that any other accessory blowing that fuse is less than ideal, but I don't run anything else on the bike as it's virtually a plated track bike.
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