I must be incompetent... stator issues

[thedrewski86]

So I feel like I'm missing the obvious here. I have a low-charge situation on my '05 and I initially thought I had a toasted r/r. When I check for continuity across the three yellow wires and my power and ground wires on my r/r I get OL across everything. My multimeter is working to the best of my knowledge (I get continuity when I touch the leads together anyway). I've been using RMStator's and Roadstercycle's how-to videos to make sure I'm testing these properly and I concluded that the diodes were roached in my r/r.

I happened across a free spare r/r so I figured what the heck, I'll toss it on and see if it makes a difference. I had loaned my multimeter out when the r/r arrived so I just plugged it in, fired up the engine, and sure enough, same low charge. Huh, this r/r could be bad as well but I kinda doubt it. It's more likely I have a roached stator and the diodes in my old r/r are bad as well. When one item goes out, I expect the others to fall too so it didn't surprise me.

I got my multimeter back and I had a few minutes last night. I fired it up and checked the voltage at the 3-wire plug coming right off the stator. Here is where I get confused: according to RMStator's video, I should check the voltage across each phase. So if I assign A, B, and C to the three wires, I should run my test leads to A-B, A-C, B-C, right? When I do this I get no voltage at idle or 5k rpm. If I test A-ground I get 5-6v regardless of rpm. Same for the other two phases. Soooo, I am pretty sure the stator is not producing voltage, but my testing procedure is not as the how-to describes.

That's all I had time for last night, I still want to test my new (used) r/r on the bench but as of right now I am 90% sure that I have an underperforming stator and that is the first problem I need to, um, rectify, no pun intended.

By the way, the battery is a one-year-old Yuasa, fully charged, and maintaining 12.7 volts just fine. I doubt that's an issue.

[DannoXYZ]

you are measuring AC voltage right?
test meter by measuring wall socket.

[thedrewski86]

Maaan, I hope that's all it is! It would mean that I was being incompetent when it comes to using my multimeter I will run the test again this evening and confirm that I have it on the proper setting.

Thanks

[thedrewski86]

So first off: you were right Danno. I was on DC. Testing the correct way yielded one phase putting out a mere 16v at idle and 5,000 rpm. The other two were between 50 and 60 at 5k. So that's my first issue. New stator is on the way.
Do I need a puller to do this job? Or can the stator be removed by hand? I've done this on a couple Hondas but that was several years ago and I don't remember buying any special tools for it.
I'll need to order a new gasket too... anything else while I'm buying parts?

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

So first off: you were right Danno. I was on DC. Testing the correct way yielded one phase putting out a mere 16v at idle and 5,000 rpm. The other two were between 50 and 60 at 5k. So that's my first issue. New stator is on the way.
Do I need a puller to do this job? Or can the stator be removed by hand? I've done this on a couple Hondas but that was several years ago and I don't remember buying any special tools for it.
I'll need to order a new gasket too... anything else while I'm buying parts?

Yes you need Puller
https://www.ebay.com/itm/31345013910...gAAOSwZrJgSYYU

[thedrewski86]

I replaced my stator over the weekend. I got a new one from RMStator and they were excellent to work with (fast shipping and great support), and I'm glad I did because, sure enough, my old stator had evidence of burning up when I pulled it.

Now, not surprisingly, I still need to replace my regulator. I happened on a free used r/r, but it is testing the same as my old one resulting in about 12.5 volts of max charging output at 5k rpm. I knew I was going to be in for an upgraded r/r anyway so I am just trying to figure out what route to go.

Option 1 is getting the FH020AA from Roadstercycle.com. After about $160 I have the wiring harness and brand new unit. That seems like the easiest option.

Option 2 is looking for a used SH775. I can find these pretty easily on the Polaris RZR for $50. Granted, that's a used part and there is some risk involved there, but it's a better r/r from what I can gather. I still need to get a wiring kit which runs nearly $50 everywhere I look I need to find a better option for this. Any ideas there?? I just need the two female connectors and enough wiring to make the splice and run to the battery.

[BonelessSugar]

I've been reading here that people can use as old as the FH010 as well, but haven't seen any for sale.

[DannoXYZ]

problem is FH020 is old-style shunt circuit and will run your stator @ 100% full-time and fry it just like original.

I got Polaris RR from breakers and used this wiring kit:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001640910567.html

Can also get from Eastern Beaver. Amazingly fast turnaround considering it's coming from Japan.
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__...onnectors.html

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

I replaced my stator over the weekend. I got a new one from RMStator and they were excellent to work with (fast shipping and great support), and I'm glad I did because, sure enough, my old stator had evidence of burning up when I pulled it.

Now, not surprisingly, I still need to replace my regulator. I happened on a free used r/r, but it is testing the same as my old one resulting in about 12.5 volts of max charging output at 5k rpm. I knew I was going to be in for an upgraded r/r anyway so I am just trying to figure out what route to go.

Option 1 is getting the FH020AA from Roadstercycle.com. After about $160 I have the wiring harness and brand new unit. That seems like the easiest option.

Option 2 is looking for a used SH775. I can find these pretty easily on the Polaris RZR for $50. Granted, that's a used part and there is some risk involved there, but it's a better r/r from what I can gather. I still need to get a wiring kit which runs nearly $50 everywhere I look I need to find a better option for this. Any ideas there?? I just need the two female connectors and enough wiring to make the splice and run to the battery.

Or 3rd option get them from eBays

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

problem is FH020 is old-style shunt circuit and will run your stator @ 100% full-time and fry it just like original.

I got Polaris RR from breakers and used this wiring kit:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001640910567.html

Can also get from Eastern Beaver. Amazingly fast turnaround considering it's coming from Japan.
http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__...onnectors.html

I talked with Jack over at Roadstercycle, I told him the bike and mods and he seemed to think going to the SH775 or above was unnecessary simply because of how small the 250's stator is. The only reason I'm considering it is because I am finding used units off newer bikes on ebay for $50 or so. I was looking at Eastern Beaver too; they're around $50 for wiring/connectors too. At that point I think I would rather spend $160 on all new from Jack.
I guess I just need to think it through. Jack's on vaca until next week anyway so not much is gonna happen until then.

[DannoXYZ]

Size of stator doesn't matter if you're still running it at 100% with shunt circuit. You don't need complete wiring kit. Just those connectors to replace ones on factory harness to plug in new RR.

[thedrewski86]

So you didn't run new wiring directly to your battery but simply put the two new plugs on the existing wiring? I like that idea, got any photos of the completed job?

[Triple Jim]

Of course I still disagree that shorting the stator in a permanent magnet alternator causes it to get hot. Here's a discussion that backs up what I've said... that a dead short of the stator's output from a shunt regulator does not cause extra heating due to power dissipation:

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...system.839582/

Some quotes from that discussion:

"The common belief is that the regulator/rectifier (R/R) dissipates all surplus power. "

"Designers can control maximum current by adjusting strength of rotor magnets and number of turns on stator. They size both to meet the electrical needs of the vehicle. Which means that at probably ten or twenty or thirty amps your alternator's terminal volts will fall to zero. Power (Watts) equals Volts times Amps , so at zero volts alternator power equals zero! Regardless of current. And that ten or twenty or thirty amps is what the alternator will deliver into a short circuit."

"So the common belief is almost right - the regulator dumps not power but current. By dumping current it reduces alternator power output to zero for part of every revolution, making alternator power average just what the vehicle needs."

That last sentence sums it up nicely. With a shunt regulator, the alternator is not putting out full power all the time!

[thedrewski86]

Jim, no argument from me. I just want a working charging system and I don't want to spend over $200 on a "cheap" second bike. I'm going with an 020AA if it's new or a 775 if I can find a good wiring solution. I'm not running extra lights or anything non-stock, I just don't want a dead battery. Well, I do want to protect my new stator, but either r/r will be better than what I have. Improvement is better than nothing.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Of course I still disagree that shorting the stator in a permanent magnet alternator causes it to get hot. Here's a discussion that backs up what I've said... that a dead short of the stator's output from a shunt regulator does not cause extra heating due to power dissipation:

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...system.839582/

Some quotes from that discussion:


That last sentence sums it up nicely. With a shunt regulator, the alternator is not putting out full power all the time!

Half of those nerds have never even touched a bike! Here's another fun one from that forum: https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...e-down.972994/ . Those nerds needs to get off their armchairs and go back to actual engineering school. The thing people don't realize is linear-regulator circuit simply doesn't short stator AC-input to ground, that's not how circuit is designed or wired! They are talking about circuits that actually don't exist. AC-output from stator is always connected to rectifier's input 1st. Then shorting only occurs later in rectifier stage when it's DC. Here's intro to linear-regulators:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regulator
https://www.digikey.com/en/maker/blo...age-regulators

Get hands-on empirical data from actual bike. I used AC clamp on current-meter on stator output. At no time is output zero on any phase because regulator regulates output voltage in 3-way voltage-divider split, not short input to zero. If you cut input 20-VAC or 40-VAC or 60-VAC to 0-VAC, how are you going to get 14-VDC out of it?

I also have clamp-on DC current meter on regulator output and dump wires. The sum of DC outputs is always ~15 amps regardless of load on system. High-power high-beams on or off (+5 amps), heated gloves (+5amps). Only thing that changes is balance between output vs. dump: 5+10, 8+8, 10+5, etc. Total is always same.

My next test is to use infrared thermometer to measure stator temps at various loads. Will be secondary confirmation of output measured earlier.

Put some meters on actual bike. Also look up how linear/shunt regulators work. They're a voltage divider/ladder. Well, now I know where to post all my measurements and make some of those armchair nerds get their hands dirty.


* BTW- what you're describing with quick on/off chopping by shorting is a switching-regulator. Similar to more modern SH775 and SH847 series regulators. The rapid on/off switching cuts off output and voltage is adjusted by PWM. That you can see with oscilloscope. There's absolutely zero switching or PWM going on with OEM shunt regulators on these bikes.

[thedrewski86]

LOL we're all nerds!! Why do you think we're typing on keyboards instead of riding?? To be honest, I don't care what I get, but a 775 will be in my price range if I can understand the hookup - do you have pics of the factory wiring going into the Eastern Beaver or Ali xpress connectors? The wiring on our bikes is 12awg, correct?

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

LOL we're all nerds!! Why do you think we're typing on keyboards instead of riding?? To be honest, I don't care what I get, but a 775 will be in my price range if I can understand the hookup - do you have pics of the factory wiring going into the Eastern Beaver or Ali xpress connectors? The wiring on our bikes is 12awg, correct?

It easy see photo

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

LOL we're all nerds!! Why do you think we're typing on keyboards instead of riding?? To be honest, I don't care what I get, but a 775 will be in my price range if I can understand the hookup - do you have pics of the factory wiring going into the Eastern Beaver or Ali xpress connectors? The wiring on our bikes is 12awg, correct?

That was on my race-bike. I'll ask new owner if she can get me photos.

It's simple really. Chop off wires right at connectors from old RR. Strip 1/4" and crimp/solder on new terminals (I also added adhesive heat-shrink). Insert into connectors. Plug in RR. The mounting-holes didn't line up, but I just used zip-ties. New series-RR is cool to touch always, even after hours of WOT riding! Just idling for 5-minutes will fry your hands on factory RR.

Just like photo from shspvr, it's really simple. Best if you have crimper with W-die, otherwise, solder will be extra security to hold it together.

[thedrewski86]

Cool, I see what you mean. When I have done these upgrades in the past, I simply ran 18" or so of new wiring from the r/r directly to the battery to replace the red and black wires. Obviously the yellow wires are good right at the unit, I was just unclear as to how to had yours configured. I like the idea of using the factory wiring for all five wires and just utilizing new connectors.
I'll probably just get the 775, simply because it's a newer model. If it works on this, it will be good prep for whenever the r/r pops on my SV.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

The thing people don't realize is linear-regulator circuit simply doesn't short stator AC-input to ground, that's not how circuit is designed or wired!

I've never seen or heard of a linear regulator used on a PM alternator. The one that's commonly used, as I mentioned recently, is made so that when a Zener diode sees its Zener voltage it conducts and turns on an SCR so that it that shorts the alternator output for that half wave. It's either out of the circuit or shorts the alternator, at high speed, and nothing inbetween.

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

I've never seen or heard of a linear regulator used on a PM alternator. The one that's commonly used, as I mentioned recently, is made so that when a Zener diode sees its Zener voltage it conducts and turns on an SCR so that it that shorts the alternator output for that half wave. It's either out of the circuit or shorts the alternator, at high speed, and nothing inbetween.

I believe linear regulator it also know as LDO (Low Dropout Voltage Regulator)

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by shspvr

I believe linear regulator it also know as LDO (Low Dropout Voltage Regulator)

The term "low dropout regulator" refers to a regulator that is capable of regulating close to the input voltage. They don't require the input voltage to be much higher than the output voltage like some regulators do.

For example, if you need to charge a battery at 14 volts, an ordinary regulator might need 16 or 17 volts input. A low dropout regulator might need only 15 volts to do the job.

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

The term "low dropout regulator" refers to a regulator that is capable of regulating close to the input voltage. They don't require the input voltage to be much higher than the output voltage like some regulators do.

For example, if you need to charge a battery at 14 volts, an ordinary regulator might need 16 or 17 volts input. A low dropout regulator might need only 15 volts to do the job.

Even I had to look what linear regulator is being I never heard of this to which it point to LDO Low Dropout Voltage Regulator and or Low Dropout Regulator it still interesting.

[thedrewski86]

I'm waiting on connectors from Eastern Beaver. My new r/r got here though, and I'm considering mounting options. Here is my ideal location:



For this situation, I need to relocate my rear master cylinder reservoir. I briefly considered eliminating it entirely and just running this setup:



I don't like that though. This was just temporary anyway and I don't like running my expansion chamber that tight.

My other option is to mount the r/r here:



Normally I wouldn't consider mounting a r/r in a spot with such poor airflow, but when Danno mentioned how cool these run, I wonder if this is a viable option? I'm highly skeptical...

Unless I can be convinced otherwise, I want to simply relocate my mc reservoir. Any suggestions or experience here that still leaves it looking factory?

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

Normally I wouldn't consider mounting a r/r in a spot with such poor airflow, but when Danno mentioned how cool these run, I wonder if this is a viable option? I'm highly skeptical...

Run a test. That's what I did when I designed a regulator to manufacture. Connect it any easy way and mount it with something simple like duct tape. Obviously if its housing needs to be grounded, run a ground to the frame. Then go ride a few miles and see how warm it is. I actually epoxied a thermocouple to mine and taped the display to my tank so I could read the temperature under varying conditions, but for your purposes stopping to feel it once in a while would be fine.

The manufacturer of the regulator in your photo seems to feel it needs cooling fins, so it probably makes enough heat to warrant them.

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

The manufacturer of the regulator in your photo seems to feel it needs cooling fins, so it probably makes enough heat to warrant them.

That's my thinking. Plus it just screams "I'm mickey moused in" which is not how I like doing things (anymore...) I will explore mc res relocations. I saw somebody relocate theirs to the port side of the swingarm, I'm not convinced of that but options are limited.

[DannoXYZ]

Here's an idea, mounting it in stock location, but slid back about 4cm to allow cable connectors to fit. You can make mounting plate that bolts to factory location, then provides 2nd set of studs further back to mount new regulator. Like this plate, used to mount SH847 on VFR in stock location but with connector rotated 90-degrees for cleaner installation:



OEM RR compared to SH847.


Installed, wiring flows backwards, much cleaner than draping over radiator.



So here's what it would look like on your bike. Make plate that bolts to factory location, with set of studs that allows you to mount RR rearward (thread holes in plate and install screws with red Loctite from backside). Then you can re-use factory wiring with new connectors in same location.

[thedrewski86]

I think you're right Danno, moving the r/r further back seems plausible.
Here is my current issue: hooked up to the best of my knowledge, but still not producing more than 12.5v. Should I have the brown line hooked to anything? All I have are the three yellow wires going to the grey connector and the white/red and black going to the black connector. All the connections from Eastern Beaver seemed to go together well and clicked solidly into place. I just don't know... I have the battery on charge but it was good when I fired it up. With a new stator and r/r I'm running out of parts to replace. This battery seems to be doing great but that's all that's left.

[DannoXYZ]

No need to connect brown wire as it's turn-ON signal for factory RR. So back to basic measurements:


1. measure battery DC voltage before starting. Voltage = ??
2. measure impedance/resistance of stator windings 1-2 2-3 1-3
3. measure impedance/resistance of each stator phase to ground 1-gnd 2-gnd 3-gnd
4. measure resistance of red output wire to ground (bike off)
5. measure AC output at idle and 4000 rpm 1-2 2-3 1-3

Measure these at rectangular connector as well as at connector going into RR. Did you crimp and solder those terminals?

[thedrewski86]

Right you are, I just didn't feel like pulling the multimeter out and going through that last night. I did test the stator about two weeks ago along with tech support from RMStator as I did it (just to make crystal clear I was doing everything right). I'll go through that again and check this new r/r unit as well. Gosh, at this point I hope it is a toasted battery and I can just be done, that's rarely the way things work though.
I did not solder the connections, I just crimped them. I was so impressed with how clean the connectors were from Eastern Beaver I opted not to solder them. I was able to get such a nice connection there it almost looked like the factory crimping on the stock harness... I can always disassemble and put a drop on each one though as a failsafe.

[DannoXYZ]

I just worry about the short adapter section. Wire-gauge looks little thin. Did you use W-die on crimper or just one of those squeezy crescent shapes?

Bad battery can draw down voltage due to not charging. So that's 1st test. Also...

6. Disconnect RR output connector. Start bike. Measure DC output of RR on bare terminals.

This last test measures actual output of RR without any voltage drop from current flow to charge battery.

[thedrewski86]

That short adapter section is just the other side of the stock wiring harness (from the old r/r), so it's the same gauge as the wiring it plugs into on the bike. I wanted to keep that stock rectangular plug so I would still have the option to go back to stock. Maybe I should have gotten a new one from EB... I still can I suppose, or just eliminate the whole thing and solder everything.
I crimped the connectors with my channel lock crimper. It's not the w-die like you mentioned but it puts a nice "fold" on the fingers that hold the wiring. I will go through all the wiring and connectors on the bike again and check continuity. If the r/r and stator test good I will make them work. I just may have to upgrade some connections along the way.

[Bob KellyIII]

Hay Drew I thought you were supposed to check A to ground through the meter
and read the AC voltage at idle the same with B and C.... each one will have a voltage above ground in the order of 20vac to 50vac at idle but I could be wrong... but that is how I've always checked a stator the 3 wires that come out of it are holding a 3 phase voltage and the R/R turns that into useable voltage
so if you suspect the stator you just check the voltage on those 3 wires....using AC on the meter.... if any one of those wires fail the voltage check the stator is bad.
..... is that not the way it's done anymore ? LOL
Bob.........

[shspvr]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Hay Drew I thought you were supposed to check A to ground through the meter
and read the AC voltage at idle the same with B and C.... each one will have a voltage above ground in the order of 20vac to 50vac at idle but I could be wrong... but that is how I've always checked a stator the 3 wires that come out of it are holding a 3 phase voltage and the R/R turns that into useable voltage
so if you suspect the stator you just check the voltage on those 3 wires....using AC on the meter.... if any one of those wires fail the voltage check the stator is bad.
..... is that not the way it's done anymore ? LOL
Bob.........

Or just watch this done by Rick's Motorsport Electrics with an actual Ninja 250

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2nuX5K3Vk" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube.

[thedrewski86]

Well, there's my problem



New parts are great; provided the stator is able to tell the regulator it's willing and able with the juice

RMStator even included a new plug for the black piece when I got the stator from them. I guess I'll be putting that on then...

[Triple Jim]

I'm not sure if you're saying the connector was accidentally unplugged, but I can see one of the terminals out of position in the black connector shell. It looks like when the mating connector was plugged in, it pushed the male terminal out the back. (that's probably what you meant)

[thedrewski86]

Yeah Jim, I guess I didn't make that clear. It was absolutely avoidable too, and my fault; had I realized the black and white connectors were other manufacturers I wouldn't have messed up the connector. Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to put the new white connector on for now, but I'm ordering a pre-wired replacement from Eastern Beaver now. They have one good to go for less than $30 and I don't have to rely on my less-than-deal crimper. It works okay but the w-die is way better, I should get one.

[Triple Jim]

I always crimp and then solder for motorcycle connectors. I've found that to be more reliable than just crimping.

You should be able to push that terminal back in to the shell and get along fine, at least until you replace it.

[Bob KellyIII]

I think I would pull that connector out completely and bend the little hooks on it a bit more so it will actually stay in the plug in and then the problem is solved
.... why replace the plug if you don't have to ? and it's worked up till now right ? so just fix the problem and pet the girl nicely and explain it'll never happen again ! ...she'll understand and run like a top !
if you go and replace plug in's she might get a complex and feel she's not worthy..... because you felt it necessary to change stuff on her....
I'd just do as little as necessary myself...bikes can be very finicky if they want to be !

....<GRIN>
Bob........

[thedrewski86]

Well, I soldered up the connectors and put on the new part. Bob, I agree that would have been a suitable solution, but unfortunately the new white connector simply doesn't fit the old black one (that's why it pushed that terminal out). When it pushed out it wore through some wire insulation too so it was getting compromised. I learned a bit on those connectors on this page; for example the white ones are made by sumitomo and the black ones are yakazi (once again, incompatible w/ eachother).
Anyway, fired it up and I had 13.5v at idle. I call that a win, full test with a ride around the block perhaps tomorrow.