Bicycles!

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by "A"

Hydraulic brakes are nice if you are constantly on the brakes, as for long distance traveling downhill or at high speed, but normal gravel/adventures, cable actuated disc brakes are plenty sufficient for modulation and braking power.

I personally just enjoy the feel of hydraulic discs much more than mechanicals. I have Tektro mechanical discs on my dual sport and my wife has Tektro hydraulics and the lever feel is just much better for me.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by "A"

Instead of getting a completely new bike, why not convert a MTB with disc brake mounts already for gravel/adventure use?

I did it with my Yukon. It works, kinda. But it's not the same at all. I want the BB drop, seat post angle, etc. that an endurance road bike provides. A gravel/adventure road bike is very very very similar to an endurance roadie. My trail geometry MTB is not even close to a roadie. I plan to put some slicks on it, but mostly for hooning around on so I don't ruin my knobbies, not to do long distance stuff. Also, it's obnoxious to have to constantly swap tires back and forth and back and forth. I want to set my MTB up tubeless (and all my bikes if I like how that works) and that doesn't lend itself well to swapping tires frequently. I could do spare wheelsets... but at that point just give me the bike that serves my purpose better. Work horses are for work, race horses are for racing. You don't seen clydesdales racing in the derby. See what I'm saying?

I want characteristics of a road bike, but I want larger tire volume because the roads here blloooooowwwwwwwwww. It will be an addition to my roadies for now, if I find I ride it enough I no longer have a need for a road-only bike, it will be the replacement. If I find my use for the gravel bike is more off road than on, a set of super low resistance XC tires would make for a nasty monster cross bike.

Originally Posted by "A"

What are the reason that made you specify 650b wheels for the next bike over other wheel sizes?

More tire choices that still fit within the frame and I want the extra tire volume.

There's lots of MTB tires that are 650B x 2", but not a lot of roadie type frames that will fit 29erx2" MTB tires. Most gravel bikes I've seen online that will fit 700x40 tires should fit 650Bx2" tires as well. Same OD, more volume.

Originally Posted by "A"

Hydraulic brakes are nice if you are constantly on the brakes, as for long distance traveling downhill or at high speed, but normal gravel/adventures, cable actuated disc brakes are plenty sufficient for modulation and braking power.

Sufficient =/= what I prefer. I've used BB7's (which are some of the best mechanicals) and they're okay-ish. I've not tried the new TRP Spyre's that clamp from both sides, removing most of the issues with mechanicals, but those would be my most hopeful option if I were required to use mechanicals.

Until then, hydraulics give loads better modulation, crisper feel, better long term performance, and are simple to maintain. If I'm saving and buying, brakes aren't one area I'm willing to compromise feel on. Even low end Shimano Hydraulics are better in both modulation and power than high end mechanicals that I've used from other manufacturers.

With good offerings from both Shimano and SRAM in the 105/Ultegra and Apex/Force lineups, what reason is there to not use hydraulic brifters on a roadie?

Originally Posted by "A"

My current road bike is over 16 years old, yet still ride the same as the day I bought it.
If I am to do it over again, likely get a disc compatible 700c ti frame, just to avoid the rim braking heat that can melt the tires on mile long, fast downhills.

Right, I remember you like your Ti bike.

As far as I'm concerned, the rim brake is dead; disks have all benefits and no drawbacks, and within disk brakes, hydraulics are king. I'm not saying rim brakes don't still work and don't have a place when budget is a concern, just that a good disk set up is worth it to me.

["A"]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

what reason is there to not use hydraulic brifters on a roadie?

Right, I remember you like your Ti bike.

As far as I'm concerned, the rim brake is dead; disks have all benefits and no drawbacks, and within disk brakes, hydraulics are king. I'm not saying rim brakes don't still work and don't have a place when budget is a concern, just that a good disk set up is worth it to me..

Yes, I do like titanium bicycles, because they last, they are cheap to operate, cost effective, just like my pre-gen Ninja 250.
Personally, I ride my bike as transportation, recreation and fitness. Performance/racing type riding are far in between. I enjoy the fact that I can go out of my driveway and explore the rest of the world on my bicycle and not have to drive my bike with my car to a court/field/rink/course to use my bicycle. Riding a bicycle allows me to connect with more people than just walking or driving.

Disc brake advantage is that when a rim suffer damage, the rim brake is likely to rub and cause further damage to the rim/tire.
Hydraulic disc brake performance is really unnecessary for 99.9 percent of bicycling population, even those who already have them.
Extra hassle of changing the brake fluids, creating more demand on bicycle parts that are not sustainable; seems to negate the benefit/purpose of riding a bicycle over motorized vehicle for transportation or in general.

As a motorcycle racer friend used to say:
Brakes, who needs them; they only slow you down.
-Robert "Snuffy" Smith 1943-2007

[choneofakind]

^^^ agreed with everything. The freedom of a bicycle is amazing and addictive and so many people need to experience the simple thrill of disconnecting and feeling your heart pump with the joy of being alive

Also fully agree that my taste in bike components far outdo my ability to justify them through skill or "need". But, at the same time, I prefer the feel of good hydraulics. I have XT on my new trail bike and they're amazing in every way. Brake fluid changes is a once a season (or less) item and takes 5 minutes with a syringe, a cup, and some tubing to do a thorough brake bleed to bring back firm lever perfection. I bought the half gallon jug of brake fluid, which will last me a long long time. Maintenance on hydraulics is really a non issue. I mess with them once a year vs single clamping mechanicals where you have to mess with the inboard pad every few rides because it wears at an angle.

I won't be a snob and talk down to someone because their bike is inferior because they have less fancy parts than me, I'll just enjoy mine and appreciate that I was lucky enough to purchase such a nice thing.



Anyhow: if you see any good adventure frames that fit my requirements, please pass it along. I'm good at knowing how to spec my parts and build a bike, but what I lack is the ability to ride 50 bikes to test ride them all.

[CaliGrrl]

[QUOTE="A";1169447]
Personally, I ride my bike as transportation, recreation and fitness. Performance/racing type riding are far in between. I enjoy the fact that I can go out of my driveway and explore the rest of the world on my bicycle and not have to drive my bike with my car to a court/field/rink/course to use my bicycle. Riding a bicycle allows me to connect with more people than just walking or driving. [/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Purple"]It's true. Riding a bicycle makes me more accessible to the world, and the world to me. Neighbors are more ... "real" somehow, than when driving.

Reminder to self- get out on the bicycle more.
[/COLOR]

["A"]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Anyhow: if you see any good adventure frames that fit my requirements, please pass it along. I'm good at knowing how to spec my parts and build a bike, but what I lack is the ability to ride 50 bikes to test ride them all.

I know Lynskey is been putting up some nice titanium frames for auctions on eBay.. for the quality of frame from Lynskey, they are very good price for frames that will likely last a lifetime, if you can afford one.

[choneofakind]

Sweet, I'll check into those. Those prices on their site don't look bad. They're obviously higher than aluminum, but in the ballpark when also considering carbon.

["A"]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Sweet, I'll check into those. Those prices on their site don't look bad. They're obviously higher than aluminum, but in the ballpark when also considering carbon.

Most, if not all their frames on eBay are under $700, some even $500.
$500 for a titanium is a pretty good deal, but for Lynskey (Litespeed) quality with internally butted and tapered tubes; that's a very good bargain.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by "A"

Most, if not all their frames on eBay are under $700, some even $500.
$500 for a titanium is a pretty good deal, but for Lynskey (Litespeed) quality with internally butted and tapered tubes; that's a very good bargain.

If I could find the GR250 frame in a medium for $700 or less, I'd jump on that right now. I can't find that size right now on the fleabay. Such a classy bike. So classy.

The other one that I'm looking at because a supplier friend can get me a deal on it is the On-One Bish! Bash! Bosh! because it's got all the right stuff in terms of geometry and clearance. Very similar to the GR250.

[alex.s]

whats so good about titanium anyway

i think i would get a chinese carbon before ti

[choneofakind]

It's pretty and doesn't need paint.

["A"]

Originally Posted by alex.s

whats so good about titanium anyway

i think i would get a chinese carbon before ti

Titanium application in Cycling

There are good reasons why the fastest jet is made mostly out of titanium.. and not carbon fiber... still is the fastest four decades later.

The need for titanium is likely excessive for frame material, since the tooling/process involved to manufacture titanium tubing/frames are so expensive; but the result is a frame that can last beyond lifespan of the rider if no defects/accidents.
No need for paint (to chip/scratch), never rusts and similar ride quality as steel at 1/2 of the weight. Titanium might not be the ultimate frame material, but getting one at a bargain price that last longer than you can ride it is a good investment.

[alex.s]

uh. fastest jet? that's like saying something is the fastest steam engine... the current generation of spy-plane is considerably faster (see low-earth orbital velocities), flies higher (in space) and is structurally made from almost completely carbon fiber. not to mention spy planes have basically nothing to do with bicycles... also titanium does oxidize in air, but it looks the same color.

as far as i can tell ti is more expensive than CF and has only negatives when compared to CF.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by "A"

There are good reasons why the fastest jet is made mostly out of titanium.. and not carbon fiber... still is the fastest four decades later.

To be honest, those reasons have almost precisely zero relation to the application of titanium and carbon fiber in bicycles, which conspicuously also explains the reasons why the X-37 (as mentioned by alex) is constructed primarily of advanced composites instead of lightweight metals. Right material for the right application and the different reasons each were chosen in the two examples don't matter in the least for bicycles.

["A"]

Originally Posted by alex.s

uh. fastest jet? that's like saying something is the fastest steam engine... the current generation of spy-plane is considerably faster (see low-earth orbital velocities), flies higher (in space) and is structurally made from almost completely carbon fiber. not to mention spy planes have basically nothing to do with bicycles... also titanium does oxidize in air, but it looks the same color.

as far as i can tell ti is more expensive than CF and has only negatives when compared to CF.

After personally broken 3 carbon fiber bicycle frames without significant abuse no accidents.. I can say that carbon fiber is no where nearly as durable as titanium in bicycle frame application.

Expensive? not at $500 per frame.

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

To be honest, those reasons have almost precisely zero relation to the application of titanium and carbon fiber in bicycles, which conspicuously also explains the reasons why the X-37 (as mentioned by alex) is constructed primarily of advanced composites instead of lightweight metals. Right material for the right application and the different reasons each were chosen in the two examples don't matter in the least for bicycles.

Zero relation? current spy planes have no need to be as durable for no human is needed to pilot them.
Ask yourself, does your bicycle need to be durable when you ride it?

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by "A"

Zero relation? current spy planes have no need to be as durable for no human is needed to pilot them.
Ask yourself, does your bicycle need to be durable when you ride it?

They are both very strong materials when produced and assembled correctly. They share the qualities of being both strong and light but differ in other ways.

[alex.s]

"I can say that carbon fiber is no where nearly as durable as titanium"

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what carbon fiber is...

[Brother Michigan]

Again, it depends on the application. You can use the wrong type of carbon fiber laid up in the wrong way and it will be essentially useless in an application where titanium will perform very well.

["A"]

Originally Posted by alex.s

whats so good about titanium anyway

If you don't know what's good about titanium and don't like what people telling you; do your own research about it.

Originally Posted by alex.s

as far as i can tell ti is more expensive than CF and has only negatives when compared to CF.

"As far as you can tell" is not all there is.. if all you can see is negative, doesn't mean there isn't positive.

Originally Posted by alex.s

"I can say that carbon fiber is no where nearly as durable as titanium"

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what carbon fiber is...

After breaking 3 carbon fiber frames in 6 years of riding (zero accidents, zero abuse)
and
seen countless broken carbon fiber frames/stems/handlebar/seatposts/wheels while over 2 decades in the bike industry; that's my experience with carbon fiber frames.. What's your experience?

My 17 year old titanium frame is still intact and rides the same as the first day I own it.

[alex.s]

were those frames that broke from china?

my experience with carbon fiber frames is with fujis, felts, canyons, pinarellos and specialized. i've never seen any issues with broken frames.

what kind of watts are you putting down that you're snapping these frames?

["A"]

Originally Posted by alex.s

were those frames that broke from china?

my experience with carbon fiber frames is with fujis, felts, canyons, pinarellos and specialized. i've never seen any issues with broken frames.

what kind of watts are you putting down that you're snapping these frames?

Not Chinese frames: TREK, Specialized, Kestrel..

How many years of experience have you had with carbon fiber frame vs any other frames?

I don't use powermeter, I ride for transportation/fitness, not competition. I doubt I'm putting out any significant power to break frames at 150 lb.
Power output is meaningless to me, unless you're training to be top level performance as a way of making a living by winning cash money to replace a normal job; leisure/fitness level riding have little to gain with usage of powermeter.

There, I've answer your questions, why don't you answer some of mine from previous posts?

[Brother Michigan]

Until someone finds a rigorous study about the durability of different frame materials in bicycle frames, how about all of us just realize that 1) I don't believe any of us here is an expert in materials science and 2) none of us is able to provide anything other than an anecdote regarding the reliability of these different materials.

[choneofakind]

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/38773..._ti_6al_4v.pdf

This is a link to a study on high cycle fatigue loading of titanium alloy in biomechanical parts. Interesting to note is that when cracks were introduced to the part (to simulate fracturing and wear with use) the cracks did not propagate. However, this is still a stress concentration point, which does weaken said part. I'm still at a loss (please read my link closer and take longer than I did) for whether Ti fatigues more similarly to steel (can be designed for infinite life) or like aluminum (which can only be designed for "infinite-enough" life through over building). Ti has a smaller Young's modulus than 2130 Chromoly which means it will actually be softer and more compliant for a given volume of material, but is lighter per unit volume (please correct me if I'm wrong), which means more material can be added at critical points for stiffness without sacrificing compliance where you want it or adding massive weight. It's a unique material for sure, but its application in the SR-71 has little (read: nothing) to do with its application in a bicycle. A large part of why it was used on the 71 is because of the heat cycling and thermal properties of Ti vs what else was available at the time. It was used because it was the only thing that readily fit the bill at the time. All recent research with new space vehicles (both privately and publicly) tells me that if the SR-71 were to be made today, it would be carbon fiber.



Also an interesting note (and this comes from my design experience and interaction with actual design engineers who work with carbon fiber for a living in both bicycle and motorsport applications) carbon fiber does not fatigue over time. This means if all forces are properly defined and validated for the application, carbon can be designed for infinite life. Additionally, if it is under designed slightly, it will not degrade strength with use. *the limit of this statement obviously is if the forces experienced are so large to the point where they are more than the ultimate tensile strength of that particular carbon layup, then we see ultimate failure. I cannot emphasize enough how the strength of carbon is very very very very dependent upon the direction of the fibers, the interaction of multiple layers of fabric, the penetration of the resin, any voids in the resin penetration, or imperfection in the curing, sharp penetration damage, etc.

There are no be-all-end-all blanket statements about the superiority of any particular building material over others that have no merit or details other than just the material used. Many many materials can be designed into amazing and durable frames. Bamboo, even, can be made into a durable frame, but every material has its own limitations and needs to be designed with intimate knowledge of it. You can make as equally amazing if a frame out of aluminum or steel as you can out of carbon or Ti or bamboo or fiberglass or whatever.

[choneofakind]

All that said though, there's something about Ti frames that are drop dead gorgeous. If anyone can find a $500 Lynskey GR250 in medium, please PM me.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

Until someone finds a rigorous study about the durability of different frame materials in bicycle frames, how about all of us just realize that 1) I don't believe any of us here is an expert in materials science and 2) none of us is able to provide anything other than an anecdote regarding the reliability of these different materials.

Seems like a cop out.

Plenty of opinions available on the topic yet people do not offer personal experience to back up their claims.

I don't claim myself to be an expert, but I have worked in the bicycle industry for over two decades, including mechanical jobs on professional cycling team and retail shop that cater general market.

I have fitted, repaired and fine tuned countless bicycles for most if not all purpose of cycling events. Not only use bicycles for leisure/fitness/competition; but also as tool that they depend on to make a living and transporting themselves to their work.

My qualifications related to cycling industry may not be certifiable or decorated with degrees, but certainly practical and applicable in most if not all facet of cycling related activities.

You don't have to believe me in what I say, but you are welcome to try it for yourself and share your experience, which may require years or decades to acquire.

[Triple Jim]

My experience with frame materials:

1. '70s Bob Jackson Reynolds 531 frame was a pleasure to ride, but after several decades the paint failed. Got a repaint but seat tube broke at lug just above bottom bracket. Now a decoration.

2. '70s Schwinn Paramount (531), very well designed geometry and another pleasure to ride, but paint failed and now out of service. Waiting for repaint that may or may not ever happen.

3. Pinarello Surprise (aluminum), nice frame, after about four years the paint developed some flaws, sweat got under it, and corrosion began, causing bubbling of paint. Although still in service, I don't ride it much because it needs a paint job which I will probably do myself someday. Has low end Pinarello Vela carbon fork that has cracked paint at the joint between the fork blade and aluminum crown, probably indicating a failure of that bond.

4. Litespeed Firenze Ti (low end Litespeed), down tube cracked badly near head tube after five years and about 30,000 miles. Repaired by Litespeed and still in daily service six years and another 40,000 miles later. This frame came with an Easton EC90SLX all carbon fork, which has gone the whole 70,000 miles in 11 years and still appears to be perfect.

I paid $1,000 for the Litespeed frame and Eston fork in 2006. $500 for a decent titanium frame today sounds like an amazing deal. It may be money better spent than paying for a repaint of an old frame.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by "A"

Seems like a cop out.

Plenty of opinions available on the topic yet people do not offer personal experience to back up their claims.

I don't claim myself to be an expert, but I have worked in the bicycle industry for over two decades, including mechanical jobs on professional cycling team and retail shop that cater general market.

I have fitted, repaired and fine tuned countless bicycles for most if not all purpose of cycling events. Not only use bicycles for leisure/fitness/competition; but also as tool that they depend on to make a living and transporting themselves to their work.

My qualifications related to cycling industry may not be certifiable or decorated with degrees, but certainly practical and applicable in most if not all facet of cycling related activities.

You don't have to believe me in what I say, but you are welcome to try it for yourself and share your experience, which may require years or decades to acquire.

"A", your experience gives you a very valuable perspective. But I want to point out (for the sake of open and honest complete discussion, not being rude or attacking you) that while my experience is all in design of frames and only lightly in being a bicycle mechanic (which means I lack the extremely thorough mechanic side you have) you also need to realize that you lack any knowledge or experience on the design side. There's an entire side of the process which you know nothing about, yet you tout being an expert across the board. See what I'm saying? Again, I'm not discrediting here, just trying to make sure we all are realistic in what kinds of claims we can make.

I know owners of 4 high end, amazing shops (I worked for one of them) that do fantastic work and have been amazing sources for cycling knowledge and customer support, but they are definitely not engineers, nor do they claim to be. I defer to them for bike support and industry or parts knowledge, but they and I have an understanding that we all have expertise in different areas of the spectrum. There's a TON of design work that goes into bike components that the end user and dealership never see or even consider. The mechanic is not the technical expert on whole process, just like the engineer is not the expert on the customer/rider support end.

See what I'm saying?

["A"]

I've designed, built even welded my own aluminum observed trials frame, time trial handlebar/stem combo and handlebar shifter mounts before STI levers were widely available.
I've worked for Koga Miyata in Belgium and Japan headquarters as part of their consultant for race team concept for consumer manufacturing application. No none of those were certified not accredited work but certainly not "nothing".

I don't assume anything of you unless you've stated in your previous posts, so why assume anything of me?

[choneofakind]

Please share what your design process consisted of for the frame.


EDIT: I'm going to edit this because it merits some explanation so I don't come off as uselessly combative.

Generically, the design cycle taught in Engineering school (and used less formally in industry, but still used) is shown by the nice little picture I found online and I'll walk through it for more info.


1) ID the problem. Obviously your TT bike you made was needed. So in this case, the problem was: we need a TT bike for _____ reason. Identify the user, the method of use, the estimated forces, the type of environment it will be used in, literally everything about what you want it to do. The more thorough you are here, the better off you'll be later on.

2) ID criteria and constraints. Constraints are written as "must" or "shall" statements that should be check mark items to determining if your solution is a solution to the previously defined problem. This is where your purpose of your design comes in. Criteria are statements that are used to choose the best solution out of all your brainstormed solutions and must be able to be measured in order to decide. So, some example contraints might be: The bike MUST put the rider in a UCI-approved TT position, or the bike SHALL weigh less than the Trek Speed Concept, or the bike TT bike MUST be able to withstand industry-accepted loading standards, etc etc. Some criteria might be... stiffness is preferred, where stiffness is measured at the BB and is in inches of defledtion per lb of force applied (and then would outline the testing), etc etc etc

3 through 5) Brainstorming. Self explanatory. This is purely brainstorming without limiting yourself with pre-conceived mental restrictions. Plenty of info online on how to be creative when brainstorming and how to utilize groups to make the process easier. This is always an ongoing process. Generating ideas and exploring is an expanded portion of this process. Really, these three are all very connected and can often be grouped together, but this graphic has chosen to list them as separate functions.

6) Select an approach: this is where you go back to your criteria and select what you believe to be the "best" option from your brainstorming/think tank. There are plenty of decision making tools out there to remove your internal bias and let you make a decision based upon nothing but how you've weighted various factors in your decision making process. This is often difficult and is often overlooked and/or fudged unless a design team is sticking rigorously to the books.

7) Prototyping. This is where fabrication comes in. Many people think this is the only part of "design", but it's really just a small portion. This is the time in the shop, using the lathes and mills and plasma cutters and welding equipment or whatever tools you have at your disposal. This is also often the most productive feeling time in the design process, because suddenly your man hours are turned into something tangible.

8) Refining the design. This is the wonderful part that I'm fond of called testing and validation. This is where you go back to your first step were you identified forces and use conditions and you have to confirm that a) those conditions are right and b) that your part you designed still stands up to those and that c) you have acceptable certainty that your safety factors are sufficient for the intended service. The final step of refining is making sure that if anything is wrong with your design based upon your testing, you go back through the entire cycle and refine every step of the way. Obviously if your testing and validation shows that your part isn't working as you desired, you missed something in those beginning steps.

Lather, rinse, repeat your way through the entire process and you'll come out with something that fits the need and can be documented and proven every step of the way. It's very rare for anything to pass that cycle with flying colors without many revisions. At the end of the day, there's usually also criteria and constraints for determining WHEN you're done with the design process (usually cost is a huge factor in this one).





Any design work that doesn't utilize those steps is just fabrication. There's many a skilled tradesman who would argue with me because they're not able to see past the fact that their part was functional and therefore sufficient. I'm not saying it won't produce a functional item, but in the today's litigious world, anything else is negligent and will be torn apart by your customer (and potentially the court later on). I'm also aware that time is a severe limitation on many things. Sometimes, your crap just has to work and the timeline doesn't allow for months of definitions and testing. Sometimes, it just has to fit in the right place and do the needed service; this is what quick calculations and giant safety factors (read: overbuilt) are for.

Does that make more sense where I'm coming from? I promise I'm not bashing you. I'm really curious about where you're coming from, but I need more readily given information if I'm going to learn what you're sharing without making assumptions that you find unfair.

["A"]

Over 15 years ago, I built my observed trials frame.. I worked with what I have available in friend's welding shop.
Frame geometry from another observed trials frame modified to suit my height/reach/needs.


Koga Miyata concept bike I worked on have titanium plate instead of a front pivot, carbon fiber front triangle, aluminum swingarm.



So, what kind of design process do you have?

What I'm saying is that none of you should assume anything.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by "A"

So, what kind of design process do you have?

Looks neat, got more pictures of it and some more explanation as to what you were making, what it was for, why you made, etc etc? What did you get into for suspension characteristics? I'm a nerd for that kind of stuff.

I edited my previous post so I could explain that better. My experience is with two race teams for multiple years in college. One was our ASME HPVC team, the other was our SAE Baja team. Also, my entire senior year was a year-long design project called Capstone that was entirely scheduled, defined, fabricated, tested, improved, and presented by myself as a part of a group of 4. I've also done this process when spec'ing pumps, instrumentation, and various other industrial equipment at work. I've also designed some tooling for various work we've done on large compressors.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by "A"

Seems like a cop out.

I'm a scientist; I require data, not anecdotes. There's a reason you aren't going to find a bunch of anecdotes in scholarly research.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

I'm a scientist; I require data, not anecdotes. There's a reason you aren't going to find a bunch of anecdotes in scholarly research.

So provide some parameters, what evidence do you need?

What testing are needed to be scientific?

Who is going to provide you with results that's going to be suited for you in cycling, other than yourself?

[alex.s]

tensile strength:
CF: 440ksi up to 900ksi
ti beta-c: 200ksi
chromoly: 60-90ksi
al: 45ksi
plain ti 43ksi

elasticity:
chromoly: 200gpa
CF: 145-165gpa
ti beta-c: 107gpa
al: 69gpa


additional advantages with carbon fiber:
- much higher control over thickness at every location
- much higher control over directional strength/weakness due to fiber orientation
- no oxidation, newer epoxies suffer no uv damage either. isn't corroded by sweat like steel, aluminum are.

[alex.s]

steel is real, yo.

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by "A"

So provide some parameters, what evidence do you need?

What testing are needed to be scientific?

Who is going to provide you with results that's going to be suited for you in cycling, other than yourself?

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...c_method.shtml

[Apex]

Drove back to Houston from Austin today. This weekend was the BP MS150 bike ride. So day one leaves Houston and stops half way, day two takes it the rest of the way into Austin, TX. I saw a ton of riders out there and kind of miss riding it. Heck, I miss riding in general.

Goal for this month: service the mountain bike and get it back into shape. I need to get back into riding big time. Lots to do this month!

My old Trek 850, I'm thinking of dumping the triple crank for a double, and putting a newer shifter on the rear. Maybe an X-7 9-speed out back. That would be a huge step up from the stock 6-speed that is on it now. hahaha

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Apex

Goal for this month: service the mountain bike and get it back into shape. I need to get back into riding big time. Lots to do this month!

My old Trek 850, I'm thinking of dumping the triple crank for a double, and putting a newer shifter on the rear. Maybe an X-7 9-speed out back. That would be a huge step up from the stock 6-speed that is on it now. hahaha

Get it, Mark!!!

If you're swapping groups, check out the new Deore group. They just released a 10 speed 11-42 cassette with 10 speed Deore. Go 1x while you're at it.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Get it, Mark!!!

If you're swapping groups, check out the new Deore group. They just released a 10 speed 11-42 cassette with 10 speed Deore. Go 1x while you're at it.

Tempting.

I do already have an X-4 rear in my tool box, I'd just need to find a shifter.

Maybe an X-7? I'm thinking cheap though, since it only really sees trips to the store and shorter rides. The index shifting just isn't working for me anymore. lol

["A"]

Originally Posted by alex.s

tensile strength:
CF: 440ksi up to 900ksi
ti beta-c: 200ksi
chromoly: 60-90ksi
al: 45ksi
plain ti 43ksi

elasticity:
chromoly: 200gpa
CF: 145-165gpa
ti beta-c: 107gpa
al: 69gpa


additional advantages with carbon fiber:
- much higher control over thickness at every location
- much higher control over directional strength/weakness due to fiber orientation
- no oxidation, newer epoxies suffer no uv damage either. isn't corroded by sweat like steel, aluminum are.

Frame, fork, stem, seatpost, handlebar, brake lever, chain, bolts all have different parameters that each suited for different material.
Good that you know all that specs for each material.. but useless if you can't specify what you are trying to utilize each material for, what is the result your are trying to achieve?
What materials you have experienced related to cycling?

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

I'm a scientist; I require data, not anecdotes. There's a reason you aren't going to find a bunch of anecdotes in scholarly research.

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...c_method.shtml

So you are a scientist and know the scientific method, but still fail to answer my questions in previous post.

You can collect all the data in the world with scientific method, but still useless if you don't know what specific goals you are trying to achieve or no parameters specified to collect the data.

You don't need anecdotes, then specify what you need?
Scientific method is just a method; not telling anyone what what you are looking for as answer.