282 build w pics

FastrnU · May 12th, 2014, 03:28 AM

I am again building a 66mm motor(282cc); figured I would post up some pics as I go.

We have had issues in the past with overbore cylinders leaking... so I had my machine guy press them out and reseal them the same way they do for Diesel engines; shouldn't have anymore issues.

Nothing like fresh machine work.

Question is... how much did I take off the deck and why??

....MORE TO COME

bruce71198 · May 12th, 2014, 08:27 AM

squish. .5mm

FastrnU · May 12th, 2014, 09:09 AM

yes, but .5mm is a little aggressive from my measurements.

bruce71198 · May 12th, 2014, 01:20 PM

How will you determine what the limit is?

alex.s · May 12th, 2014, 03:31 PM

can you use solder to check your assembled squish like we do on the 40cc 2ts?

bruce71198 · May 12th, 2014, 03:49 PM

Sure, but the 08 and up 250 has 1mm of squish with the base gasket installed so you have that much plus the thickness of the head gasket.

mgentz · May 14th, 2014, 05:14 AM

if you decked the head, I would say you took off .2-.3mm. Depending on the pistons chosen, I would say your shooting for 13:0 - 14:0 to 1 compression.

mgentz · May 14th, 2014, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Sure, but the 08 and up 250 has 1mm of squish with the base gasket installed so you have that much plus the thickness of the head gasket.

@bruce71198 , @FastrnU do you re-use the base gasket?

FastrnU · May 14th, 2014, 05:27 AM

Yes you can re use the base gasket, you can actually stack base gasekts if you needed to increase your deck height. Make sure to buy a new head gasket though.

mgentz · May 14th, 2014, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastrnU

yes you can re use the base gasket. buy a new head gasket though.

I always do.

So what about my numbers guess? Anywhere close?

FastrnU · May 14th, 2014, 05:33 AM

Yep pretty close.

on this particular cylinder we took, .004"/.01mm off the deck surface.

13.5:1 compression.

bruce71198 · May 14th, 2014, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastrnU

Yep pretty close.

on this particular cylinder we took, .004"/.01mm off the deck surface.

13.5:1 compression.

Are you decking the block to achieve a particular compression ratio?

FastrnU · May 14th, 2014, 05:40 AM

In some cases yes, it depends on the desired specs for the build.

Here we were simply getting rid of low spots on the cylinder deck.

bruce71198 · May 14th, 2014, 07:15 AM

What are the ramifications of taking to much off? What can be gained with squish? I reuse the base gasket and sometimes leave it out

FastrnU · May 14th, 2014, 07:27 AM

Ramifications = piston to head contact or other contact point inside the combustion chamber

Increased squish/quench area is just one more piece we can move in the game in order to obtain a certain combustion chamber clearance or compression ratio. For the most part the squish/quench area forces the a/f mixture into the center of the combustion chamber and in some cases creates more of a turbulent/swirl of mixture to accomplish a more complete burn.

Anytime you are talking about removing material, you are changing you cam timing... make sure you double check Piston to valve clearances... as you take material out the EX cam gets closer and closer to contacting the piston at approx 10^ BTDC.

We don't leave them out; that leaves nothing to seal the cases together.

If you left it out, the end result would be comparable to milling the cylinder .008"/.02mm.

Racer x · May 14th, 2014, 07:59 AM

The service limit of the head is .019. I removed .010 from a block top. I don't like the idea of cutting the head. I used 13 to 1 JE pistons with no issues.

FastrnU · May 14th, 2014, 08:05 AM

Hey Eric

Did you send a 250 cylinder down to Carolina Cycle for machine work?

bruce71198 · May 15th, 2014, 09:57 AM

My thoughts are as little squish as possible but not so little that the pistons hit the flat surface of the head at higher RPM. The rods are short and pistons light so my first test cut would be .25mm, then remove the base gasket. Speaking of the base gasket, is it really a gasket? I think its a shim designed to reduce gauling between the soft aluminum of the block and crankcase as they expand and contract during heat cycles.

mgentz · May 15th, 2014, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

My thoughts are as little squish as possible but not so little that the pistons hit the flat surface of the head at higher RPM. The rods are short and pistons light so my first test cut would be .25mm, then remove the base gasket. Speaking of the base gasket, is it really a gasket? I think its a shim designed to reduce gauling between the soft aluminum of the block and crankcase as they expand and contract during heat cycles.

Couldn't you also say that about the head gasket? Although the head gasket does squish a little.

Racer x · May 15th, 2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastrnU

Hey Eric

Did you send a 250 cylinder down to Carolina Cycle for machine work?

No.. but please PM me with details about what you can do. And cost. I need a real head

bruce71198 · May 15th, 2014, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

Couldn't you also say that about the head gasket? Although the head gasket does squish a little.

yes, but the head gasket seals out coolant, oil and combustion chamber pressure. When not running the base gasket i do use a scim coat of Honda Bond. No leaks on any so far.

FastrnU · May 19th, 2014, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

yes, but the head gasket seals out coolant, oil and combustion chamber pressure. When not running the base gasket i do use a scim coat of Honda Bond. No leaks on any so far.

That should be fine.

FastrnU · May 19th, 2014, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

No.. but please PM me with details about what you can do. And cost. I need a real head

PM sent

Racer x · May 19th, 2014, 04:17 AM

I did not get it.

mgentz · May 19th, 2014, 05:49 AM

more pics? I like these types of threads....

fast1075 · May 19th, 2014, 10:40 AM

Proper quench can be the difference between a good running engine and a pile of scrap. The harder you twist up the tune, the more important. It should be as close as possible without anything hitting. On a KZ-900/1000 that would be .035

I have no idea on a 250 Ninja. I have run many engines with Honda Bond or GasgaCinch in place of the base gasket when the deck would be a bit too high. Just be sure when you assemble, there is no oil on the mating surfaces.

bruce71198 · May 19th, 2014, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastrnU

I am again building a 66mm motor(282cc); figured I would post up some pics as I go.

We have had issues in the past with overbore cylinders leaking... so I had my machine guy press them out and reseal them the same way they do for Diesel engines; shouldn't have anymore issues.

Nothing like fresh machine work.

Question is... how much did I take off the deck and why??

....MORE TO COME

Wheres the pics as the title of your thread states?
What pistons are you using?

May 12th, 2014, 03:28 AM	#1
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	282 build w pics I am again building a 66mm motor(282cc); figured I would post up some pics as I go. We have had issues in the past with overbore cylinders leaking... so I had my machine guy press them out and reseal them the same way they do for Diesel engines; shouldn't have anymore issues. Nothing like fresh machine work. Question is... how much did I take off the deck and why?? ....MORE TO COME
	3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

May 12th, 2014, 09:09 AM	#3
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	yes, but .5mm is a little aggressive from my measurements. __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 12th, 2014, 03:31 PM	#5
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	can you use solder to check your assembled squish like we do on the 40cc 2ts? __________________________________________________

May 14th, 2014, 05:27 AM	#9
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	Yes you can re use the base gasket, you can actually stack base gasekts if you needed to increase your deck height. Make sure to buy a new head gasket though. __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 14th, 2014, 05:33 AM	#11
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	Yep pretty close. on this particular cylinder we took, .004"/.01mm off the deck surface. 13.5:1 compression. __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 12th, 2014, 08:27 AM	#2
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	squish. .5mm

May 12th, 2014, 01:20 PM	#4
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	How will you determine what the limit is?

May 12th, 2014, 03:49 PM	#6
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	Sure, but the 08 and up 250 has 1mm of squish with the base gasket installed so you have that much plus the thickness of the head gasket.

May 14th, 2014, 05:14 AM	#7
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	if you decked the head, I would say you took off .2-.3mm. Depending on the pistons chosen, I would say your shooting for 13:0 - 14:0 to 1 compression.

May 14th, 2014, 05:40 AM	#13
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	In some cases yes, it depends on the desired specs for the build. Here we were simply getting rid of low spots on the cylinder deck. __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 14th, 2014, 07:15 AM	#14
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	What are the ramifications of taking to much off? What can be gained with squish? I reuse the base gasket and sometimes leave it out

May 14th, 2014, 07:27 AM	#15
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	Ramifications = piston to head contact or other contact point inside the combustion chamber Increased squish/quench area is just one more piece we can move in the game in order to obtain a certain combustion chamber clearance or compression ratio. For the most part the squish/quench area forces the a/f mixture into the center of the combustion chamber and in some cases creates more of a turbulent/swirl of mixture to accomplish a more complete burn. Anytime you are talking about removing material, you are changing you cam timing... make sure you double check Piston to valve clearances... as you take material out the EX cam gets closer and closer to contacting the piston at approx 10^ BTDC. We don't leave them out; that leaves nothing to seal the cases together. If you left it out, the end result would be comparable to milling the cylinder .008"/.02mm. __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 14th, 2014, 07:59 AM	#16
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	The service limit of the head is .019. I removed .010 from a block top. I don't like the idea of cutting the head. I used 13 to 1 JE pistons with no issues. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

May 14th, 2014, 08:05 AM	#17
FastrnU Engine Room-> Dyno Name: Brandon Location: Lexington, SC Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 08 YZFR6 Posts: 41	Hey Eric Did you send a 250 cylinder down to Carolina Cycle for machine work? __________________________________________________ Like us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Carol...25707357500770

May 15th, 2014, 09:57 AM	#18
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	My thoughts are as little squish as possible but not so little that the pistons hit the flat surface of the head at higher RPM. The rods are short and pistons light so my first test cut would be .25mm, then remove the base gasket. Speaking of the base gasket, is it really a gasket? I think its a shim designed to reduce gauling between the soft aluminum of the block and crankcase as they expand and contract during heat cycles.

May 19th, 2014, 04:17 AM	#24
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I did not get it. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

May 19th, 2014, 05:49 AM	#25
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	more pics? I like these types of threads....

May 19th, 2014, 10:40 AM	#26
fast1075 ninjette.org guru Name: harry Location: Central Florida Join Date: Sep 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250, 2004 Buell XB12s, Honda 110 Elite Posts: 332	Proper quench can be the difference between a good running engine and a pile of scrap. The harder you twist up the tune, the more important. It should be as close as possible without anything hitting. On a KZ-900/1000 that would be .035 I have no idea on a 250 Ninja. I have run many engines with Honda Bond or GasgaCinch in place of the base gasket when the deck would be a bit too high. Just be sure when you assemble, there is no oil on the mating surfaces. __________________________________________________ "They don't pay me enough to ride this thing!" Kenny Roberts after winning the Indy Mile on the TZ750 powered Grand National bike.

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