Do you use your rear brakes and when?

[ally99]

Hey guys. I did a search and didn't find a past thread on this topic.
I'm wondering how many of you:
a) use your rear brake at all (and if so, in which situations?)
b) use your rear brake in emergency braking as taught in the MSF course

I know on our bikes, the back-end of the bike is so lightweight and the rear brakes give so little assistance to the total stopping power of the bike, I've been staying away from my rear brake except in parking-lot types of situations. The fear of a high side b/c of a skidding rear tire is pretty strong, especially when thinking of accidentally using too much rear brake in an emergency stop. {{Shudder}} Just wondering if/when you guys use your rear brake.

Thanks! Allyson

[kkim]

I use my rear brake (in addition to the front brake), when I want to slow down and/or stop.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by kkim

I use my rear brake (in addition to the front brake), when I want to slow down and/or stop.

+1, same here. Usually every stop.

[ScorpionNinja]

I use my front and rear brakes together when slowing to a stop light/sign!
WHen stopped at a light, looking in my mirrors behind me, i keep my Rear Brake down, to keep my rear brake light on or flickering for cagers behind me to stop. Also im able to Rest my throddle hand at those lights. I Only use my rear brake when stopped at a light, on a Uphill to keep from rolling back. Sometimes when im in a rolling stop at a stopsign, i creep foward with my rear brake being dragged (like MSF teaches you). Afew times other bikers behind me have had too put down a foot or 2 waiting for me. Cuz im pretty good with that techneic!

While in a slight lean... heading into a corner at a low speed... i lay off the Front brake 100%, while keeping a slight foot down on my Rear brake, until i slow enuff, to feel safe to complete the turn (in gravel or dusty areas that cover most of the corner, and i Dont have anywhere else to use - Cager taking up most of the room)

[sharky nrk]

I use my rear brake alot, but i will only use the front if i am just trying to scrub a bit of speed, mostly because i will already have set my body into position and would rather not upset the bike unecessarily. normal stopping 75-85% front with the balance for the rear.

I do alot of engine braking though

[Grn99Kawi]

I only use my rear brake when coming to a slow stop.. and then only at like 15mph down or so... the front gets the most workout.

[Kurosaki]

Nope

Never.

[backinthesaddleagain]

i use it with my front most of the time for stopping or slowing.

[Alex]

We had a fun thread on this a short while back. I'm on a tiny cell screen right now so I won't be able to link it, but will once I get home if nobody else has already. But basically, for soft to moderate stops, or if the surface is questionable, I'll use primarily front but will include some rear brake. On track, or if trying to shed a whole lot of speed quickly in an emergency type stop on dry pavement, I'll use 100% front, with the rear barely skimming the ground.
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[P1NDLESK1N]

I usually use it along with the front brake, when coming to quick stops, or during slow maneuvers.
I've locked the rear up so many times coming to a stop that I'm getting used to the rear pulling out a little.

[ninjabrewer]

Every time I stop. I did a little trial with both brakes. Used front alone, used rear alone, and both. I stop faster using both, esp panic stops. I used to ride a bicycle alot and I always used both brakes then. But I do use the front harder because I, like everyone else on here, know that when braking, your weight and the weight of the bike shifts forward and the front brake is more effective. But, for me , I have found that using both stops the the bike quicker and in less distance.

nb

[OldGuy]

for the same reasons.

[lockie]

I'm the most comfortable using both brakes. It is the most efficient. I've had to learn to stay off the front brake at times. I too ride a bicycle and use the front brake a lot. But the Ninja has much better front braking and I got a shock (quite literally in the groin) the first few days I was re-learning to ride and was too exuberant with the front brakes. Ah Well. Live and learn.

[addy126]

I use both. You get to know exactly what touch is needed in combining the rear brake with the front. I rely on the front brake to bring the bike to a complete solid stop... but feather in the rear as well to avoid the "rear brake" locking up..... its all in the touch. I never hardly ever use the rear on its own, always in combo with the front. I find if you don't integrate it with the using the front as the primary... you are most likely to lock up when the rear is really needed because of the lack of use with all riding situations. I find using the front on its own can sometimes put you into a highside situation on going a little hot into corners.

[Alex]

OK, back in front of a real computer now. Here's that link to a related discussion on braking technique.

[M-Oorb]

I used to use both...as was taught in my intro MSF course. Yet since taking a minor spill 2 weeks ago and reading the above posted thread I now only use my rear brake when coming to a complete stop at a light or stop sign. Ive been practicing using my front brake only when shedding speed quickly(on a straight away before a turn).

Not only has this forum entertained me and led me to have the ability to do my own maintenance and mods but its also taught me more advanced riding techniques.

[Purspeed]

Sometimes I tap the rear brake to shift weight to the front when braking.

When doing slow speed manuevers, I use the rear brake to get into the friction zone.

Rarely do I use the rear brake in a turn (never use front brake).

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Sometimes I tap the rear brake to shift weight to the front when braking.

Purspeed - can you expand upon that a little? Applying the rear brake, sometimes a fraction of a second before applying the front, is used to settle the rear suspension and bring it down slightly so in fact less weight shifts to the front. That technique can in fact keep the bike a little more balanced in non-emergency stops. But that seems to be slightly at odds with what you're saying...

[kazam58]

I use it when I'm not downshifting. The engine braking on the 250R is plenty. But around town I don't engine brake much, I just pull in the clutch lever, coast to a stop and use both brakes. In the twisties and going faster I'm teaching myself not to use the rear brake at all. It just makes things easier

[AnarchoMoltov]

I just finished my MSF course at the end of May...The last day when we were being tested, on the quick stops/emergency stop, I witnessed a 200+ pound woman thrown over the front of a little 200cc bike (high side crash) cuz she grabbed nothing but front brake, she only had a 3/4 helmet on so she busted her chin open too.....needless 2 say I always use both brakes now

[Alex]

She didn't crash because she only used the front brake. She crashed because she clamped on to the front brake and either went end over end or locked the front and crashed in that manner. Both brakes wouldn't have saved her, and someone with that level of skill (or lack of) is as liable to lock the rear as well, causing similar issues with the chin/pavement interface. And sure, if your only choices are not being able to prevent the front from locking up, and not being able to prevent the rear from locking up, I guess I'd choose the rear lockup as well. But wouldn't it be even better to have the skills to bring both right up to the point of lockup without going over? Once you can do that repeatedly, it becomes clear that the rear isn't doing nearly as much as you might think in actually shortening the braking distance.

There's also a world of difference between a 25 mph --> 0 mph stop in a parking lot, and a 70 mph --> 0 mph emergency stop on a freeway, or even a 70 mph --> 40 mph deceleration while setting up for a corner. What seems an accurate observation in one may not remain as accurate in one of the other scenarios.

[AnarchoMoltov]

definitely the front provides much more stopping power than the rear, I think the rear is only like 25% of the stopping power...but that 25% used with the front 75% could prevent u from completely having to clamp down on that front brake..I try to avoid riding in a manner that puts me in emergency stopping situations....But anything can happen out there....

[n4t]

I never use my rear brakes when stopping, too easy to skid, I use it sometimes when stopped on a hill.

[Cedilla]

I use the front and the rear combined almost always, except when braking in turns or low speed maneuvers, or loose dirt or gravel, in which case I use the rear only. Im surprised so many people are scared of the rear brake, Im pretty heavy on the rear brake, and I have yet to lock it up. I have locked the front twice and both times were a non-event.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by AnarchoMoltov

definitely the front provides much more stopping power than the rear, I think the rear is only like 25% of the stopping power...

These percentages (80/20, 75/25, 90/10, whatever) are all just a rough estimate, and it's not like people's hands and feet are so calibrated that they'd actually be able to feel "yup, that's exactly 25% on the rear". But what can be repeated are tests just like the ones linked in that other thread. Controlled conditions, skilled rider, emergency stops from 60 mph. Front brake only = 151 feet. Rear brake only = 270+ feet. Front + rear brake = 146 feet. In other words, adding the perfect amount of rear braking force to the already perfect amount of front braking force shortened the distance by 3.4%. Not even 5%. And certainly not 25%. That means if you're going 60 mph at the goal line, with perfectly balanced braking, bringing both wheels to the point of lockup, you can expect to bring the bike to a stop 1 foot before the 49 yard line. And if you ignore the rear completely and only get the front right, you can expect to bring the bike to a stop 1 foot past the 50 yard line. It's not significant.

While some might say, correctly in fact, that that < 2 yard difference might make all the difference in the world. And it might! But my point is only that if the front brake isn't being used right up to its maximum capabilities, we lose a heck of a lot more than those 5 feet, and will never recover it no matter what we're doing with the rear.

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by Cedilla

I use the front and the rear combined almost always, except when braking in turns or low speed maneuvers, or loose dirt or gravel, in which case I use the rear only. Im surprised so many people are scared of the rear brake, Im pretty heavy on the rear brake, and I have yet to lock it up. I have locked the front twice and both times were a non-event.

I'm not scared of it. It's just not how I ride.

[Kolya1981]

Use a combination of both all the time on both bikes. Not sure why everyone is so afraid either...have lead foots?

[kazam58]

So, Kuro, did you remove the rear brake?

[Angel-be-Good]

I use a lot of rear braking, but never when I'm trying to kill a lot of speed in a short amount of time. It's usually used to modulate speed in a parking lot where my right hand is more concerned with delicate throttle, or bringing it down a notch if I find I've brought my cruising speed higher than I want--generally I find it lazier to apply rear brake instead of stretching my fingers for the front, so if the situation only calls for a bit of scrubbing I'll go for the rear. If I want to stop quickly, like for a stop light, entering a corner fast or to avoid some yay-hoo that pulls in my way, it's almost 100% front brake with a hint of rear.

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by kazam58

So, Kuro, did you remove the rear brake?

It's good to use when I'm lazy and want to hold the bike still on an incline.

So maybe never was the wrong answer.


Never while moving.

That's better.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

Purspeed - can you expand upon that a little? Applying the rear brake, sometimes a fraction of a second before applying the front, is used to settle the rear suspension and bring it down slightly so in fact less weight shifts to the front. That technique can in fact keep the bike a little more balanced in non-emergency stops. But that seems to be slightly at odds with what you're saying...

Most modern bikes get 100% braking from the front. Think stoppies. The friction of the tires to the road is the biggest factor in reducing braking distance. So, tire technology is key for improvement in braking (other than thermal conductivity in transforming mechanical energy into heat within the brake pads, calipers, floating rotors, etc.).

When you begin to brake (by either squeezing the front or rear brake lever on a motorcycle) weight shifts to the front of the bike. This prevents one from locking the brake.

This is why using the rear brake as a standalone brake is not suggested. It locks far too easy because the weight will transfer to the front of the bike rapidly causing the rear to lock.

So, if you first apply the rear brake, you shift weight to the front (in race applications, you are either accelerating, braking or turning 100%...or a combo thereof), and then apply the front brake now that the weight is shifted.

Some experts argue that you do not need to use any brakes at all (think Valentino Rossi & Keith Code) when corner carving or that braking doesn't give you a net lower lap time. But, for those of us mere mortals, tapping the front or rear brake (I like rear because that is weighted before I begin the braking process) transfers weight to the front and then you can firmly squeeze the front brake for maximum braking potential (engine braking not included).

Any input in the bike can potentially be a destabilizing force (things in motion tend to like being in motion...newton, et all), so being smooth with your inputs is key.

If you are coming out of a turn, the oscilllaitons from the "third" spring (the frame) depending on the material, structure and inherent dampening abilities of said stuff may unsettle the rear (you see this in racing quite a bit...not so much with 250GP though), but this would not relate to braking too much.

The rear is unsettled by friction loss (fore aft) and the tire searching for friction with lateral movements. This happens in both acceleration and braking.

When forcefully braking, using the rear brake can settle things a bit, as well.

Most MotoGP racers do not use their rear brakes, however...69 Hayden does though (and considered a bit strange by that virtue) but that has a lot to do with his roots in dirtbike riding...KEntucky.

[Alex]

I get what you are saying, right up until the point about using the rear brake to shift weight to the front so you can then apply the front brake. Shifting weight to the front happens much quicker if you just use the front brake to do the same thing. Adding rear brake prior will not move as much weight forward as quickly, and in fact lessens that weight transfer compared to using the front brake alone. In some cases that behavior is desired when going for smoother stops with less weight transfer. But as I think you're referring to what you'd do for maximum braking in race applications, I'm not sure I've ever heard of anybody using the technique you describe on track...

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Most MotoGP racers do not use their rear brakes, however...69 Hayden does though (and considered a bit strange by that virtue) but that has a lot to do with his roots in dirtbike riding...KEntucky.

You're absolutely right, most don't use much rear brake. But even those that do aren't using the rear brake to scrub speed at all, they are using it to help settle the rear of the bike and to help control the arc through the turn when both front and rear are at the very edges of traction. Nicky used to use even more of the rear brake to help control wheelies when accelerating hard, but that's become less and less necessary with better electronics now taking care of that automatically.

[komohana]

very interesting discussion..many different answers and explanations...diverse like our member pool...ANYWAY..
i use a combination of front and rear brake the majority of the time. for slow manuvering, like transitioning forward from a complete stop, i'm on the rear brake. someone said previously its all in the feel, and i completely agree.
when i rode my 700 interceptor, a buddy and i went to an empty stadium parking lot and did some braking manuvers to aquaint ourselves better with the characteristics and stopping power of front, rear and both. this really helped understand limits and how the cycle reacted to each.
we also understood that to keep pressure applied when performing these runs would end in disaster! that lady who did the tripple gainer off the 200cc platform at the msf course is a fine example of that.

[Nickds7]

I do use both at once. When coming to a complete stop I first let go of the front at the last moment and allow the back break complete the stop as I put my foot down... keeps my hand on the throttle ready to go if the light turns green quickly, and my break on for visual purposes and to keep from rolling.

One thing I don't think anyone has brought up is that rear brake, if you must, in a corner is the way to go... It definitely has helped when hitting some of my favorite 25mph turning sections (I love 25mph turns, especially when you get 5 in a row)

I've locked the rear a few times, doesn't really scare me as long as I'm not of a bad surface... I used to lock my rear on my mtb right after a downhill going maybe 25-30 all time, I found it fun.

Edit; rear break is also used for u-turns (in 2nd gear too), parking lots, and controlling my mad wheelies

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

I get what you are saying, right up until the point about using the rear brake to shift weight to the front so you can then apply the front brake. Shifting weight to the front happens much quicker if you just use the front brake to do the same thing. Adding rear brake prior will not move as much weight forward as quickly, and in fact lessens that weight transfer compared to using the front brake alone. In some cases that behavior is desired when going for smoother stops with less weight transfer. But as I think you're referring to what you'd do for maximum braking in race applications, I'm not sure I've ever heard of anybody using the technique you describe on track...



You're absolutely right, most don't use much rear brake. But even those that do aren't using the rear brake to scrub speed at all, they are using it to help settle the rear of the bike and to help control the arc through the turn when both front and rear are at the very edges of traction. Nicky used to use even more of the rear brake to help control wheelies when accelerating hard, but that's become less and less necessary with better electronics now taking care of that automatically.

You're correct in that using the front brake will shift weight faster (for several reasons), but most folks do not have the proper skills to do this. Sometimes I get lazy and just use the rear brake to shift weight, that's all.

The oscillations while in the turn including the friction gains/losses to the rear front while maximizing speed, avoiding collision and keeping the guy behind you behind you and avoiding a low side from front or rear slide or highside makes this high speed ballet an interesting one for the bike's chassis.

The chassis design element is the one most complex and misunderstood, even for the world's experts. Since the chassis has no dampening abilities (other than the max loads of the inherent material or design), the tires have to deal with this chaotic load coming out of a turn (in most cases). Braking may help or cause a highside. Some rudimentary traction control devices are being developed to help prevent this.

Nicky is crashing and losing in part because of the electronics. He's fighting them and is not comfortable with them at this time. I hope he sorts this out by next year.

[SteveL]

Under normal braking conditions I use both some times at very low speed just the rear, starting on a hill which I do often I hold it on the rear and release gradually as I pull away. Modern brakes are so good that yes you can brake with only the front but don’t try it with a single sided single leading shoe cable operated drum brake.

Steve

[NaughtyusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Alex

I get what you are saying, right up until the point about using the rear brake to shift weight to the front so you can then apply the front brake. Shifting weight to the front happens much quicker if you just use the front brake to do the same thing.

I was taught to apply the rear brake slightly before applying the front, in order to aid with (and forgive me if this is the wrong term) setting the load on the front to shape the tire properly before fully applying the front brakes. I think this fits in with what Purspeed is saying.

[ally99]

Wow, what great information here! So it sounds like everyone does it differently. I've practiced quick stops and various other maneuvers in a parking lot, but it is so tough to get real world (ie: 60MPH) experience in controlled conditions. That's what makes me nervous. Sure, in a parking lot at 25 MPH, I know I could master using the dreaded rear brake along with the front, however, in an emergency stop, I wonder if I would react differently and use too much of the rear brake. I'm only 120 pounds, and as you guys know, the back of our bike with no passenger is feather light. The fear of losing control of that back wheel is quite a mental block for me. I've been riding since March, and I've never used the rear brake, however, I try to look far enough ahead in situations so as to avoid emergency stops, so I've never really needed maximum stopping power on my bike....yet. I want to make sure I get the maximum stopping power as safely as possible. I think I'll take the bike out and do some practicing. Thanks again for everyone's reply! It is so interesting how different we all are as riders!

[Rayme]

I use my rear brake in town when stuck in slow traffic..way easier to control the bike than havin it nose dive everytime I use the front brake.

[Snake]

I use the rear brake in conjunction with the front and have learned how much pressure to apply to the rear to avoid locking it up. If the rear wheel does lock up you simply release pressure on the rear brake and gradualy reaply for maximum stopping power.