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Old July 2nd, 2017, 10:32 AM   #1
ThatDude3K
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No Braking In Turns?

Random question here guise..
Its a bad nono to break in a turn yeah? What are you supposed to do if you need to stop in a turn though? Like say your on the highway or a curvy road and the person in front of you starts braking while your leaned and turning with traffic. Is there a correct method for situations like that?
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 10:41 AM   #2
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You can certainly brake in turns. You have to know how much you can brake though. Going straight, you can brake until you skid the front wheel or the rear wheel starts to come off the road. In a maximum turn situation when you're leaned over so far that the tires are on the verge of slipping, you can't brake at all. Anywhere in the middle, you can brake some, and how much depends on how much traction the tires available that's not needed for the turn.
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 11:20 AM   #3
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We cover how to brake in turns in the MSF BRC.

If you haven't taken the BRC, I'd suggest you do.

Here's the handbook for the course
Attached Files
File Type: pdf brchandbook.pdf (22.16 MB, 9 views)
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 05:00 PM   #4
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 05:33 AM   #5
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Actual MSF instructors chime in here to correct me, but here's my $0.02:

Things like this often arise because we've heard or been taught something and didn't fully understand it.

The MSF course teaches us to stand the bike up and THEN brake to stop in a corner. Connect the dots and what you wind up with is "don't brake while leaned over." Take that to its logical conclusion and you get "never brake in a corner." But if memory serves, they never actually say that.

It pays to understand the purpose of the Basic Rider Course. It's there to teach you skills that will keep you out of trouble... things like "don't cover the brake lever." But it's obvious that if you DO cover the lever you can react faster. So why do they teach that?

IMHO it's because total beginners -- the target audience for the BRC -- are far more likely to panic than experienced riders if something goes wrong. That means that when the **** hits the fan they're likely to do something dumb like grab a fistful of brake, lock it up and crash. So the instructors teach you skills that will make that less likely to happen. But once you've got a lot of experience, those "safer" skills become less relevant. That doesn't mean they're wrong. It does mean that as you develop as a rider, you pick up new tools to work with -- tools that are not part of the basic course.

Take this to the braking in a corner thing. Most if not all of us have heard of the "traction pie." You've only got so much traction, and it has to be distributed between cornering, braking and acceleration. Exceed the limits and the tire gives up. Brake, and there's less traction available for cornering. Corner harder, and there's less traction available for braking. Brake too hard and corner too hard at the same time, and you've blown your traction budget. Result: Crash.

Easy to see how this concept could be interpreted as "never brake in a corner." But that's not true. Racers routinely trail brake, as do experienced riders. It's a useful skill, but as noted it's something you need to learn and not be ham-handed with. What you do NOT do is brake HARD while leaned over.

The reason (IMHO) that MSF teaches you to stand up before emergency braking in a corner is that by standing the bike up, you're maximizing the traction available for braking and therefore giving yourself the best chance of getting out of a tough situation in one piece.

If you understand why things work, you can make smarter decisions. Beats blindly following rules you do not understand every time.

Knowledge is power.

PS: At my last track day I encountered the EXACT MSF emergency brake in a turn scenario. Here it is on video... note that without thinking, I executed a textbook MSF BRC maneuver. Stood up and braked hard. What do you think would have happened if I'd tightened the turn to avoid the wreckage AND braked hard at the same time?

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old July 3rd, 2017, 07:58 AM   #6
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I don't remember how good the brakes on the Ninja were but on the BMW if you grab a big hand full of brake when lent over it will high side you that's if you have enough grip if not the front tucks under and same effect. OUCH
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 08:18 AM   #7
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My opinion of the front brake on my pregen is that it has plenty of ability to do a stoppie or skid the front wheel, but it takes a good squeeze to do it. That makes it very controllable in an emergency situation. I'm not a fan of 1-finger brakes.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 09:58 AM   #8
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I appreciate the write up @adouglas. The way you explained the concept definitely makes some sense. Definitely something I was curious about.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 10:09 AM   #9
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Here's a fun exercise: Next time you're out driving your car, try left-foot braking. You might be shocked at how inept you are.

I'm old enough to have racked up a million miles in cars, more or less. As with anyone who has that much mileage, my right foot is finely attuned to the pressure I put on the brake pedal in my car. But if I try to left-foot brake... hoo boy. I'm like a kid with a learner's permit. The car lurches and bucks like crazy because I don't have the feel. It's too much, or it's not enough.

Note: Do this in a parking lot or when there's ZERO traffic. Seriously. Your skills really are that bad.

Point of the exercise? To show that with experience, you get a much better feel for brake pressure and its effect on the vehicle.


Fun exercise #2: When you're out driving, be very aware of how you brake when cornering. Try consciously NOT braking when the car is turning and see what happens (i.e. take your foot off the brake BEFORE you turn the wheel). Then try it driving as you normally would and note the difference.

Point of the exercise? To prove that we all know how to trail brake, because we all do it in our cars without a second thought.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 10:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Here's a fun exercise: Next time you're out driving your car, try left-foot braking. You might be shocked at how inept you are.
I learned to use my left foot on the brake pedal when driving automatic transmission cars when I first got my license. When I got a car with a manual transmission, I used my right foot on the brake without a problem.

There are several reasons I like using my left foot on the brake with automatics. One is when maneuvering around a driveway that's not level, I can apply steady throttle and use the brake to fine-tune the car's movement, rather than trying to do it with gas and brake alternately, which causes lurching around clumsily.

My driving instructors said never to use the left foot for braking, because in an emergency we're likely to push both feet down, resulting in applying the gas. I've been in emergency situations over the decades, and they're wrong... it doesn't happen.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 12:08 PM   #11
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Probably because you've driven that way your whole life. Same rationale as the MSF course training. You've learned the skill, so it doesn't happen. A neophyte might not react the same way.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 12:08 PM   #12
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As far as the how to brake in a corner, I think Mr. Fist has you covered pretty good as far as street riding goes.

imho, the need to brake in a corner should be more rare than common baring city surface streets. Some yielding intersections are curved to the merge point and traffic can be thick enough to need to come to a complete stop.

Now once outside of city limits, I follow a very simple rule about braking in corners. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you are riding within your limits and your vision, the need to brake in a corner goes way, way, way down. Also, think about standing the bike up in a right hand turn? Where are you going to go? Into oncoming traffic, so lane placement should be a thought as well. Its a problem that most of us track riders do NOT have. Just the same as the BRC, we do the same on the street and the track if we need to shed speed mid corner. Expect the bike to want to stand up and go wide. While trail braking is a useful skill, it's purpose is not directly related to your question, as the purpose of trail braking is to finalize your corner entry speed. Post apex, you should be rolling on the throttle when the need to slow or stop comes up. AND... it should NOT be a surprise as best you can, giving you time and space to reduce lean angle and shed speed.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 01:30 PM   #13
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you are riding within your limits and your vision, the need to brake in a corner goes way, way, way down.
Very good point. Riding within your vision is extremely important, and often ignored. I've heard many experienced riders say things like "I came around the corner and some idiot had put grass clippings all over the road. I was barely able to stay up." One has to expect every corner to have grass clippings, or a tractor going 5 mph in the lane, or a stray cow, or a million other things that can kill you. Assume a hazard is always just out of sight.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 02:33 PM   #14
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Where are the flag stations?! I didn't see any.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 04:06 PM   #15
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Where are the flag stations?! I didn't see any.
You can see the nearest flag station 30 seconds into the video. Accident scene not visible from that station, and when I went past the crash the flagger was just walking out from the pits. They probably threw the flag just after I passed the flag station.
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Old July 5th, 2017, 07:58 AM   #16
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PS: At my last track day I encountered the EXACT MSF emergency brake in a turn scenario. Here it is on video... note that without thinking, I executed a textbook MSF BRC maneuver. Stood up and braked hard. What do you think would have happened if I'd tightened the turn to avoid the wreckage AND braked hard at the same time?

Link to original page on YouTube.

@adouglas was this filmed from your POV?
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Old July 5th, 2017, 03:07 PM   #17
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@adouglas was this filmed from your POV?
Yes... both angles are from my bike. I run two cameras (and still trying to figure out a way to damp the front-facing one better...)

The photographer from otmpix.com was right there and caught the whole thing as it happened.

Can't link directly, but it's in this gallery... sequence starts at image 1109: http://photos.otmpix.com/p1060217140

Camera rig:

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Old July 5th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #18
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on my way home from work tonight, this came to mind when exiting the interstate, I had about a 20 degree lean when I started applying the brakes. Its just something you learn how to do.
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Old July 7th, 2017, 06:15 AM   #19
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Yes... both angles are from my bike. I run two cameras (and still trying to figure out a way to damp the front-facing one better...)

The photographer from otmpix.com was right there and caught the whole thing as it happened.

Can't link directly, but it's in this gallery... sequence starts at image 1109: http://photos.otmpix.com/p1060217140

Camera rig:

Dude your R6 looks amazing!
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Old July 7th, 2017, 08:18 AM   #20
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Dude your R6 looks amazing!
Dude my R6 IS amazing. Bought it from another TTD rider who upgraded to a new R1. He put allll the goodies on it. I picked up a set of used fairings (originals were in rough shape) and a less-crashed tank, and added a few bits and bobs of my own (quickshifter, gear indicator). It's one hell of a track bike.
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Old July 20th, 2017, 08:44 AM   #21
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Yes... both angles are from my bike. I run two cameras (and still trying to figure out a way to damp the front-facing one better...)
You probably already know about rolling shutters. I have been looking for a good camera which uses a CCD global shutter sensor instead of the more common CMOS rolling shutter sensor.

https://youtu.be/4lHlzRw_Oek

If anyone knows of any... please chime in.
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Old July 21st, 2017, 07:00 AM   #22
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Yeah, I'm pretty much stuck with the camera. This week I bought some rubber isolation mounts from Amazon ($12 for four, enough for both mounts), and have placed them between the mount base and the fairing. There is now no solid metal-to-metal connection between the camera and the bike. Hopefully that will damp the high-frequency vibrations that cause the problem. Pics of the actual rig when I get a chance.

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Old July 21st, 2017, 08:42 AM   #23
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In case you ever need a different size or configuration, McMaster-Carr has a good selection:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#vibration-...ounts/=18lfpnm
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Old July 25th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #24
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Very good point. Riding within your vision is extremely important, and often ignored. I've heard many experienced riders say things like "I came around the corner and some idiot had put grass clippings all over the road. I was barely able to stay up." One has to expect every corner to have grass clippings, or a tractor going 5 mph in the lane, or a stray cow, or a million other things that can kill you. Assume a hazard is always just out of sight.
Exactly. You should plan for things to be in the corners or plan for having to stop and be looking ahead enough to see it happening with enough time to be able to react. But yes, the correct way to brake mid corner would be to stand the bike up some before adding the brakes. If you try and grab the front brake while fully leaned into a corner what happens, why?

If you are going around a right hand corner and you need to stand the bike up, how do you do it?
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Old July 25th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #25
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If you are going around a right hand corner and you need to stand the bike up, how do you do it?
Put your shoulder into it...

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Old July 31st, 2017, 08:46 PM   #26
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Put your shoulder into it...


Hahahah damn!!! Yes, do that
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:15 AM   #27
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Thought this should go in here -

Link to original page on YouTube.

Looks like he started to run a little wide and jumped on the rear brake.

That was barely what I would consider a "turn". Just lean more.

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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:50 AM   #28
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"Fuuuu....." LOL.

Yeah, I know, not funny, but, well, funny.

Good ATGATT video that shows mesh gear isn't really up to the task... or rather, that it's a one-time-use-only thing.

I agree. Looks like he stomped on the rear brake. Skill fail.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:57 AM   #29
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Quote:
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If you try and grab the front brake while fully leaned into a corner what happens, why?

If you are going around a right hand corner and you need to stand the bike up, how do you do it?
- You may tuck the front, because you're adding braking force to cornering force. If you go beyond the limits of the traction pie, the tire gives up.

- Countersteer it back up (the instinctive thing to do, and what I did in the NYST video above). That, I think, is most applicable in an emergency situation. At pace, I also stand the bike up buy consciously pushing it away from me/moving my body off more. When you look at rider-facing cams in MotoGP and see the rider appear to move farther off the bike at corner exit, this is what's happening. They're lifting the bike up.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:58 AM   #30
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Yeah, I'm pretty much stuck with the camera. This week I bought some rubber isolation mounts from Amazon ($12 for four, enough for both mounts), and have placed them between the mount base and the fairing. There is now no solid metal-to-metal connection between the camera and the bike. Hopefully that will damp the high-frequency vibrations that cause the problem. Pics of the actual rig when I get a chance.

Didn't work. Back to square one....
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 10:38 AM   #31
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That rubber may be too hard, designed for heavier items. Lightweight cameras may need softer silicone or foam.

https://www.getfpv.com/clear-soft-si...bins-4pcs.html
http://www.turboace.com/isolateit-so...llversion.aspx
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L25FDAE
http://www.sorbothane.com/vibration-...r-cameras.aspx
http://www.vibrationmounts.com/press/UAVMounts.htm
https://www.flitetest.com/articles/_...e_Camera_Mount
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 11:26 AM   #32
Yakaru
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Name: Yakaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Thought this should go in here -

Link to original page on YouTube.

Looks like he started to run a little wide and jumped on the rear brake.

That was barely what I would consider a "turn". Just lean more.

Yeah... that was jumping on the rear and locking it up more than braking in a turn. You hear the telltale 'squeal' of the tire before the bike goes down.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 12:31 PM   #33
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Nice , I was going to reference what is used in rc flight systems. Moon gel is the way to go, just head to your nearby guitar center.
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