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Old November 27th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #1
AchyGrappler
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Track days and when to change groups.

Coming off another great track day this weekend at Chuckwalla, my mind is full of thoughts and ideas.

The ideas are whether to keep spending time and money to continue developing my pregen track bike or to get something different like a middleweight twin or a super sport.

My main question and the one I’m posting to the ninjette board is, when do you know when to change session groups? Mainly to move up.

This weekend was the 5th time I’ve taken the Ninja to a big track. I’ve also taken it to the kart track a few times when I was first getting it prepped. It was my third time to Chuckwalla and the first time doing the same track in the same direction. All of my track days have been in C group.

I still get lapped like I’m standing still by most of the grid. I’d get get a few passes in of my own. I can’t tell if people choose C group because B group is sold out or they are just slow like me. I record lap times and have seen my times drop 40 seconds over the lap three track days.

When you faster, more experienced riders changed groups, when did you know it was time to do so?
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Old November 27th, 2017, 08:44 PM   #2
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when everybodys in your way, and you cant take how slow there going.
track days up north have suggested lap times for each group.
have staff follow you and ask them.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 08:48 PM   #3
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Do you have any video of your track riding?

Focus on continuing to develop your riding and you'll feel when you are ready to move up. Groups are split with safety in mind, relative pace and control per each group. What this means is that when your pace starts becoming unsafe in comparison to the other riders it is time to move up.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 09:16 PM   #4
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don't worry about the other guys, worry about yourself and being more precise and faster. Maybe keep the bike, move up to B-group and monitor your laptimes. When you're no longer improving, maybe it's time to get some professional help, CSS, Yamaha ChampSchool, Ken Hill, etc. Perhaps when you can do 5-laps in row within 0.25s of each other and do back-to-back days with those times, you're at the limit of the bike?

I've chopped off 10-20s off my times this year at various tracks and I still have another 10 to go before reaching group-ave. limit of 250 racing class. It's so much fun! Especially passing up pretty much everyone in B-group, except for instructors. When I beat Dave Moss in 250 Superbike class, I think I'll be ready for bigger bike!

I think you should try B-group.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:15 PM   #5
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Hi AchyGrappler and great question!

When to consider moving up a group at a track day? - 101

1. Have you got a good understanding and execution of the basics; throttle control, steering, vision skills, braking, body position, ect... ect... ?
2. Have you "really" learned the preferred line at "that" track. Yes, you can be a B group rider at one track and a C group rider at another.
3. Can you hold that preferred line at "that" track? Even if you get passed mid-corner?
4. Do you have control over your mind and competitiveness enough to keep the "red mist" in check? Knowing when to NOT ride or pull back a little is MORE important than most things.
5. Do you find yourself having to roll off or brake mid-corner to not hit other riders?
6. Do you find yourself having to constantly take alternate lines through corners while making/setting up a pass on another rider?
7. Have you got a second opinion? Friends don't count!!! Get a CR or coach to follow you for a few laps.
8. Can you recognize negative feedback from the bike? Can you recognize negative feedback from YOU... the rider?
9. Are you NOT afraid to ask questions instead of just "giving it a try and guessing what will happen?"
10. Can you recognize and understand that "the mix" of riders present at the track "that day" will be different than the next day, so... your pace and safety is relative to "the mix, that day."
11. Are you willing to make "ANY" compromise to ensure your safety and the safety of others? Both on and off the track?
12. Do you spend most of your laps having fun or considering rolling hot pit to give yourself more clear track?

Having helped many, many riders and a decent number of ninjette members move from C -> B or Novice -> Intermediate, these are my factors that tell me when a rider is ready. When in doubt, just ask a CR/Coach to do a few laps with you to give an eval. We love to be used and abused like that, it's why we are there.

Good luck, have fun!

Bonus: The bike must also be able to pass tech for the next group, so be sure and don't forget to check gear requirements. If the bike hardware is ready, then you can focus on getting that wrinkly gray matter inside your head ready.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:07 AM   #6
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Good advice above, especially about having an instructor follow you.

Archy, I was there about two seasons ago. My $0.02 for what it's worth:

1) Getting lapped on a small bike doesn't count. A chimpanzee can twist the throttle and go fast in a straight line, so OF COURSE everyone on a bigger bike is going to pass you, even if they're not as good as you. What matters is how you're doing in the corners relative to others in the group. Are you always catching up in the twisty bits? Are you braking later/carrying more speed into corners than those around you? Are you getting on it earlier at the exits?

2) A concern that hasn't been mentioned is being a good track citizen. I really didn't want to move up if I felt I was going to become a pain in the neck for those in the higher group. That's where independent confirmation (via an instructor/coach following you) comes in. They know what you don't; namely, the actual pace of the higher group.

3) Depending on what you happen to be working on, being the fastest rider in the slower group can be more fun than being the slowest rider in the faster group. Passing (safely) is a hoot and an important skill even if you're not a racer. If you're faster than the other riders in your group, it's a target-rich environment. If you're unable to make those passes in the corners where horsepower doesn't matter as much... well, then you're not really the faster rider, are you?

4) My own personal gauge regarding comfort with moving up wasn't lap times. It was whether I felt that I was ready. If I'm riding near the limit of my ability (getting out of the comfort zone and making mistakes) and still having other riders doing better/going faster than me, then it stands to reason that I don't belong in a faster group.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:43 AM   #7
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first and foremost:
Consistency and predictability is the most important for track days. It does not matter how fast you are if you are going into a corner and changing your lines multiple times. We had that in May during racer practice, causing a crash on the guy trying to pass him. Grouping is also relative to the caliber of riders and sometimes even the available spots in each group.

40 seconds is a lot of time, but not that relevant yet. Grouping sometimes can depend on lap times, but rarely. If you are still being passed in "C" Group, it may be best to work in that group more. "B" is typically the largest variety of riders, and at times the most dangerous.

by the way who was at Chuck this past weekend?
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Old November 28th, 2017, 07:18 AM   #8
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Lots of great tips, thanks all. I asked the question because this year I was able to get out to the track 5 times of my 6 times goal. Part of my multi year plan that includes training to get me ready to start racing. After these 5 times I feel like while I’m not ready to move up yet, I can see that soon I may be.

Csmith12, that is a great list of questions. My answers were a mix of yes, no and kinda. The list also gives me things to work on over the next 6 trackdays. Thanks.

Clinker, I was out with TrackXperience. I’ve ridden with them before at Streets of Willow. Big difference between TrackXper and TrakDaz. The paddock was half full and the speed of their C group was overall much more my speed. I imagined TrakDaz events would be faster with the racers in attendance.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AchyGrappler View Post
Lots of great tips, thanks all. I asked the question because this year I was able to get out to the track 5 times of my 6 times goal. Part of my multi year plan that includes training to get me ready to start racing. After these 5 times I feel like while I’m not ready to move up yet, I can see that soon I may be.

Csmith12, that is a great list of questions. My answers were a mix of yes, no and kinda. The list also gives me things to work on over the next 6 trackdays. Thanks.

Clinker, I was out with TrackXperience. I’ve ridden with them before at Streets of Willow. Big difference between TrackXper and TrakDaz. The paddock was half full and the speed of their C group was overall much more my speed. I imagined TrakDaz events would be faster with the racers in attendance.
Yeah, Trackdaz I do B group, anyone else I do A, on my 250. When are you planning to go next?
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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:50 PM   #10
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Yeah, Trackdaz I do B group, anyone else I do A, on my 250. When are you planning to go next?
I’m planning my 2018 right now. December is out, too much holiday and work things going on. I also have to fix my smashed trailer lights. I may go to Apex to play with suspension settings if I can squeeze it in.

January I’ll get back to the track if things work out right.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #11
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Stay in the group that feels like the most fun. I think a lot of riders chase a bump way too early because they think it's a badge of honor to get to the next level. Your frustration level will tell you if you are in the right group.

If you are plagued by slow traffic, move up. And I don't mean stuck behind a single rider because you aren't fast enough to get by. I mean if you're staring at a choo-choo train of slowness, taking 2 at a time in a corner and getting pissed because guy number 3 is now immediately in your way, it's time to move up. If you are frustrated with being only a tiny bit faster than everyone and therefore unable to make a single pass for an entire session, move down. When you are comfortably making several passes per session and having fun, you are in the right spot. Kinda sounds like I'm promoting sandbagging but it's not like that. I'm just saying make it about fun, not the group. Personally, I let a CR bump me up to A way too soon. I had more fun in B.

Then after a few years when you get tired of trying to get away from unpredictable idiots and listening to overbearing CR's who act like the policemen of the racetrack, it's time to start racing. That's probably going to offend someone but I gotta be honest - I never had more fun than when I quit track days and started racing. I got 4 years of track days in and the seat time was valuable, but then I had enough. Put your time in and then get ready for the real fun of racing!
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Old November 29th, 2017, 06:12 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

I'd use this as a rough gauge, in the UK the groups are as follows;-

USA A = UK Advanced
USA B = UK Intermediate
USA C = UK Novice/Beginner

These names mean something, as opposed to Letters !
Here if you have never ridden on Track before you MUST start in Novice group & trust me I have seen some guys rock up with teh greatest kit & NO ability. Talking to them, gives no sense of their capabilities as most people over estimate their own abilities, humility is your friend !

The instructors/organisers will move people between groups if they are to fast or to slow, so be realistic.

You say you have knocked 40's off your lap times, but don't share your lap time, so that really means nothing. I can knock 40's of a lap on a new track from 1st - 2nd session ! Not sure if there are many other 250 riders in your sessions, they are quite rare here in the UK. But if there are, then how do you compare lap time wise to them ? If equal or faster, then between sessions, identify someone in the group above riding a 250 & time their laps & see how that compares to yours if similar then you can upgrade on that track.

Once fully comfortable about pushing yourself & the bike & being able to find & keep to the racing line, then you should easily be able to ride in the B group, but remember to have a look around you at who & what is riding in that group. I remeber when most track days used to be road bikes, where as now they are often racers getting in cheap practise times. If your bike is a road bike, then check when you book that its restricted to road bikes only, or at least limiting race/track bikes to A group only. This has some advantages, sessions get stopped less often when road nike only, people aren't trying 101% ! Intermediates is where you want to be.

I could ride A/Advanced group, but I'm not willing to push my expensive highly modified 800cc road bike that hard when wannabe racers are trying to commit suicide to get by ! I gave up track riding a few years ago after a serious of incidents with wannbe's falling off in front of me or throwing machines at me from behind having lost it on the brakes etc.

Most of all ride in the group you are comfortable in & enjoy yourself the most in.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 06:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by AchyGrappler View Post
I’m planning my 2018 right now. December is out, too much holiday and work things going on. I also have to fix my smashed trailer lights. I may go to Apex to play with suspension settings if I can squeeze it in.

January I’ll get back to the track if things work out right.
Track days in the middle of winter, eh?

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Old November 29th, 2017, 07:08 AM   #14
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Track days in the middle of winter, eh?

California, we are weirdly inverted. Track days in winter are the best since the weather is usually perfect. Summer however is another story. Chuckwalla doesn’t do much for bikes between June and August since you’ll get heat stroke walking over to registration. The other SoCal track day orgs are also light on events for the same reason. Chucking a bike around the course at 110 F in full leather ain’t much fun.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 07:18 AM   #15
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Chucking a bike around the course at 110 F in full leather ain’t much fun.
Aint that the truth!!!!

The hottest I have ridden in was 117f with 86% humidity. It was horrible. Nah... it was painful. Even the most hardcore riders got in only about 50% of the available track time. Us coaches were forcing people off the track (to the paddock) due to heat causing various riding issues. And this comes from a rider who loves to ride in 98f with 96% humidity...., seems there is a hard line somewhere for the most of us.

Not recommended... it's near the human limits, good call. +1 to when knowing when to NOT ride.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #16
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Track days in the middle of winter, eh?

we race this weekend.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 09:50 PM   #17
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Aint that the truth!!!!

The hottest I have ridden in was 117f with 86% humidity. It was horrible. Nah... it was painful. Even the most hardcore riders got in only about 50% of the available track time. Us coaches were forcing people off the track (to the paddock) due to heat causing various riding issues. And this comes from a rider who loves to ride in 98f with 96% humidity...., seems there is a hard line somewhere for the most of us.

Not recommended... it's near the human limits, good call. +1 to when knowing when to NOT ride.
There was one summer back in Nebraska where there was a Heat Wave of 100+ and 100% humidity, I actually took cold showers between sessions.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:25 PM   #18
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There was one summer back in Nebraska where there was a Heat Wave of 100+ and 100% humidity, I actually took cold showers between sessions.
Oh hell no! I'll take my dry heat anytime.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 05:05 AM   #19
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There was one summer back in Nebraska where there was a Heat Wave of 100+ and 100% humidity, I actually took cold showers between sessions.
Great when you have access to a shower....

I often grab a couple of ice cubes out of my cooler, put 'em in my hand and rub them over my scalp as they melt.

I'll also open the front of my suit and pour water over my chest.

Other tricks, too... I wear a skull cap or balaclava when I ride and between sessions I'll put it in the cooler, below the water line. I put it on wet and ice water + evaporation keeps me cool for awhile.
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Old December 15th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #20
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Hi AchyGrappler and great question!

When to consider moving up a group at a track day? - 101

1. Have you got a good understanding and execution of the basics; throttle control, steering, vision skills, braking, body position, ect... ect... ?
2. Have you "really" learned the preferred line at "that" track. Yes, you can be a B group rider at one track and a C group rider at another.
3. Can you hold that preferred line at "that" track? Even if you get passed mid-corner?
4. Do you have control over your mind and competitiveness enough to keep the "red mist" in check? Knowing when to NOT ride or pull back a little is MORE important than most things.
5. Do you find yourself having to roll off or brake mid-corner to not hit other riders?
6. Do you find yourself having to constantly take alternate lines through corners while making/setting up a pass on another rider?
7. Have you got a second opinion? Friends don't count!!! Get a CR or coach to follow you for a few laps.
8. Can you recognize negative feedback from the bike? Can you recognize negative feedback from YOU... the rider?
9. Are you NOT afraid to ask questions instead of just "giving it a try and guessing what will happen?"
10. Can you recognize and understand that "the mix" of riders present at the track "that day" will be different than the next day, so... your pace and safety is relative to "the mix, that day."
11. Are you willing to make "ANY" compromise to ensure your safety and the safety of others? Both on and off the track?
12. Do you spend most of your laps having fun or considering rolling hot pit to give yourself more clear track?

Having helped many, many riders and a decent number of ninjette members move from C -> B or Novice -> Intermediate, these are my factors that tell me when a rider is ready. When in doubt, just ask a CR/Coach to do a few laps with you to give an eval. We love to be used and abused like that, it's why we are there.

Good luck, have fun!

Bonus: The bike must also be able to pass tech for the next group, so be sure and don't forget to check gear requirements. If the bike hardware is ready, then you can focus on getting that wrinkly gray matter inside your head ready.
Really good list of questions and suggestions and a lot of things to think about

Quote:
Originally Posted by AchyGrappler View Post
Lots of great tips, thanks all. I asked the question because this year I was able to get out to the track 5 times of my 6 times goal. Part of my multi year plan that includes training to get me ready to start racing. After these 5 times I feel like while I’m not ready to move up yet, I can see that soon I may be.

Csmith12, that is a great list of questions. My answers were a mix of yes, no and kinda. The list also gives me things to work on over the next 6 trackdays. Thanks.

Clinker, I was out with TrackXperience. I’ve ridden with them before at Streets of Willow. Big difference between TrackXper and TrakDaz. The paddock was half full and the speed of their C group was overall much more my speed. I imagined TrakDaz events would be faster with the racers in attendance.
I'm glad you are considering getting some training to get you ready for racing. I'm a coach with the California Superbike School and love to see when people put focus on training and improving their own riding, and also on understanding and knowing when it is appropriate to move up a level in terms of track days. If you have any questions about CSS and how the school might be able to help you get ready to race let me know! When i first started doing track days and novice racing I was lucky enough to be able to do all four levels of the school and truly equate that with the success I was later able to have with my riding and racing.

Anyway, all the best and I love to see people taking rider improvement and advancement seriously! I wish more people were as concerned with proper timing of moving up in track day groups and bettering themselves then in letting their egos dictate what group they end up in.

ride safe!!
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Old December 16th, 2017, 07:23 AM   #21
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We heart ya, @Misti.

It's threads like this one that keep me coming back years after selling my Ninjette.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 03:10 PM   #22
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We heart ya, @Misti.

It's threads like this one that keep me coming back years after selling my Ninjette.

Quote:
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We heart ya, @Misti.

It's threads like this one that keep me coming back years after selling my Ninjette.
Awwwww, awesome. Good to hear!

I haven't done many track days that weren't part of a race weekend or CSS but I did get to do an awesome track day in Germany at Sachsenring. The organization ran it crisp and clean and during lunch break they re-arranged all the groups according to lap times. So, for example there was one guy in our group that started himself in the B group (he may have been bragging)- I started in B group as well and at lunch time he got moved DOWN to C group (hahaha it was awesome) and I got moved up to A group. What was so awesome about this was that obviously the lap times were a better indication of ability and performance than certain people's egos and perception of their own abilities. A group was awesome because I was with riders my same speed and level- all the groups seemed to work really well together based on simple lap times.

I don't know how other organizations do this but it seemed to work in Germany

Sometimes taking ego out of the equation is the best way of doing it, lol.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #23
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My main question and the one I’m posting to the ninjette board is, when do you know when to change session groups? Mainly to move up.

I still get lapped like I’m standing still by most of the grid.I’d get get a few passes in of my own. I’d get get a few passes in of my own.
One option I haven't seen proffered yet, that I would offer up, don't change session groups.

Instead, every time you go to a trackday, ask to link up with a coach/instructor/control rider/whatever-they-call-themselves (ideally someone on a similar bike) and play some lead and follow. If you ride with a good organization that has attentive coaches, when you are ready, I guarantee you they will tell you to move up. Plus, you'll know cool, knowledgeable people for when you return and/or if you run into an issue with your bike or riding.

Spend the time in your current group working on reference points, corner entry speed, and making clean passes. If your trackday organization allows outside passing in C group, I would say practice it and see if you're able to clear away from most of the big bikes in C over the course of a lap.

I don't know Chuckwalla, so I can't comment on that specific track for big versus small bikes and these are just my anecdotal thoughts. In C group, you should be able to find yourself gaining a ton on corner entry to mid-corner on pretty much everyone if you want to move to B/Intermediate. I'm not saying you have to be passing folks, but you should definitely be gaining ground to the point where you feel held up.

The biggest difference in moving to Intermediate for me was the amount of clear track that I had in front of me. The 600s and 1000s will all clear out on the straights, and I found myself running up the backsides of people a lot less frequently than in Novice.


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So, for example there was one guy in our group that started himself in the B group (he may have been bragging)
. . .
Sometimes taking ego out of the equation is the best way of doing it, lol.
It's always interesting to see the difference between organizations that allow "self-registration" versus those that start everyone in C/Novice/Beginner until either a talk at registration or an evaluation ride.

Definitely, the best way is to take the ego out of the equation. One of the worst offenders in my mind was a guy on a CBR600RR that just couldn't handle being passed around the outside by an SV650 and a Ninja 300 mid-corner. What does he do? Roll on the throttle mid-corner and push out wide into us every single time...
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Old December 21st, 2017, 10:46 AM   #24
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I'd love to see track days groups based on bike power, as in racing groups, instead of rider skills.

The difference in speed among small bikes wouldn't be that bad. And expert riders are usually more respectful of slow/beginner riders, so probably safer.

Big bike riders, especially if beginners, would be on their own sharing the track with the big guys. And many would quickly understand that speed is a consequence of skills and not engine power.

It would be more fun as well, as even if not racing, it would be easier to find riders to compare with and or follow for fun.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 04:36 PM   #25
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I'd love to see track days groups based on bike power, as in racing groups, instead of rider skills.
Won't work. Too much variance in rider skills.

I'd like to see liter bikes only allowed at the expert level and 600's only allowed in the upper intermediate, after reaching a minimum lap time specific to ultralight class (300) or lightweight class (650 twin).

I ran that concept by one of the managers of an org in the midwest and he laughed. He said he would lose 75% of his business. The track day crowd is too full of total newbies on 600's and literbikes.

But I can dream of the day we can keep the slow riders off the fast bikes until they get good enough. Slow riders on fast bikes is the number one frustration with track days.

I know a couple of orgs in the states made rules in the right direction - If you get passed in a corner by a slower bike, you are not allowed to re-pass on the following straight. I like that rule and wish more orgs would use it.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 09:12 PM   #26
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I know a couple of orgs in the states made rules in the right direction - If you get passed in a corner by a slower bike, you are not allowed to re-pass on the following straight. I like that rule and wish more orgs would use it.
When we coach I or A at Mid-O, we tell our riders this; "If you get passed mid-corner by a slower bike, don't be in a hurry to pass them back in the straight. Hang out behind them for a lap or two and try to learn why you got passed."
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:31 PM   #27
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I know a couple of orgs in the states made rules in the right direction - If you get passed in a corner by a slower bike, you are not allowed to re-pass on the following straight. I like that rule and wish more orgs would use it.
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When we coach I or A at Mid-O, we tell our riders this; "If you get passed mid-corner by a slower bike, don't be in a hurry to pass them back in the straight. Hang out behind them for a lap or two and try to learn why you got passed."
Never heard that suggestion before but I love it! So frustrating when you pass someone into or out of a corner only to have them fly by you on the straight and then park it again.

Ego, though. I don't see a lot of riders self-regulating themselves in that situation. Wish I could be at every track day, all the time with a crew of coaches helping everyone!!

Best advice we can all keep preaching is to get some good quality instruction, work on the skills and try and get better! there is nothing more exhilarating than hopping on a little bike and railing by everyone, hehehehehe.
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Old January 20th, 2018, 07:40 PM   #28
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Had a good day yesterday with TrakDaz at Chuckwalla. Got into a few slow bike/fast bike battles where I'd ride up on someone's behind in the corners, but couldn't make the pass as the C group only allowed outside passes. As soon as the corner was opening up I'd get out accelerated down the straight only to repeat for the next corner. I was able to beat a few on the brakes to get the inside line before the corner. It felt good to be able to think on the bike and be able to ride with strategy.
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Old February 1st, 2018, 08:24 PM   #29
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Had a good day yesterday with TrakDaz at Chuckwalla. Got into a few slow bike/fast bike battles where I'd ride up on someone's behind in the corners, but couldn't make the pass as the C group only allowed outside passes. As soon as the corner was opening up I'd get out accelerated down the straight only to repeat for the next corner. I was able to beat a few on the brakes to get the inside line before the corner. It felt good to be able to think on the bike and be able to ride with strategy.
Last year, I got to take the Graves R3 for a test ride in "C" group with TrackDaz, it was a blast, yet a bit scary as I love corner speed.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 07:39 AM   #30
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Had a good day yesterday with TrakDaz at Chuckwalla. Got into a few slow bike/fast bike battles where I'd ride up on someone's behind in the corners, but couldn't make the pass as the C group only allowed outside passes. As soon as the corner was opening up I'd get out accelerated down the straight only to repeat for the next corner. I was able to beat a few on the brakes to get the inside line before the corner. It felt good to be able to think on the bike and be able to ride with strategy.
My old 300 I picked up just for racing, but in the interest of getting some more seat time I did a couple of track days with it. What you described was so annoying to me that I decided to quit track days altogether and stick to all the practice sessions I can get on race weekends. They group all the lightweights together and it's much more enjoyable.

IMHO, the 250/300 doesn't make a good track day bike mixed in with all the newbs on liters. Maybe it's good at some smaller tracks but at the big tracks it's annoying and the closing speeds can be dangerous. The 300 was a blast at the kart track though.

I would understand that some may enjoy the challenge of riding a slow bike at a track day, but for me, when I pass someone slow I like to stay in front of them.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 10:59 AM   #31
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Around here at least, group isn't based on lap times, it's based on skill. Those newbs on literbikes should be in novice group.

If you're skilled, you can ride a 300 in a higher group and not have that problem.

A very fast rider (former owner of my track bike) was talking to me about this once. There's a lovely young woman who rides with our track day org. He said "She's not fast, but she's totally consistent, which is why we're happy to have her in the fast group. That's what it takes... it's not about speed."
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 01:50 PM   #32
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Around here at least, group isn't based on lap times, it's based on skill. Those newbs on literbikes should be in novice group.

If you're skilled, you can ride a 300 in a higher group and not have that problem.

A very fast rider (former owner of my track bike) was talking to me about this once. There's a lovely young woman who rides with our track day org. He said "She's not fast, but she's totally consistent, which is why we're happy to have her in the fast group. That's what it takes... it's not about speed."
I agree newbs on literbikes should be in novice. But I severely disagree that smooth riders should be bumped up. Being smooth and predictable shouldn't mean you get a free pass to run up one class. A common mistake CR's make is when they bump up someone on a fast bike who is smooth but kinda slow. That's actually part of the problem. That person should not be bumped up because it's just going to piss people off. It is about speed (mostly apex speed) and your very fast buddy was wrong about the lady.

Next related subject. When I make complaints like this, there's always a contingent of posters who act like "Well well, look at mister super duper fast, who doesn't like all the many many slow people at the racetrack." It's not like that at all, it's just track day frustrations. And these frustrations aren't from a lack of skill, where a CR/coach can jump in and save the day. It's just the way most track days are organized and run.

Most of my frustration went away when I started racing, where riders on similar bikes can let skill sort out the pecking order, no CR's needed. 2016 was the last year I raced before I had to retire due to medical issues, but man I had more fun than my first 4 years of track days combined. You also have to like where a bump from amateur to expert happens based on merit derived from statistics, rather than one CR's opinion which is not always always the best.

Getting kinda off topic here, sorry. To the original poster: Don't worry about what group you're in and just focus on having fun.
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Old February 2nd, 2018, 02:35 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Zaph42 View Post
I agree newbs on literbikes should be in novice. But I severely disagree that smooth riders should be bumped up. Being smooth and predictable shouldn't mean you get a free pass to run up one class. A common mistake CR's make is when they bump up someone on a fast bike who is smooth but kinda slow. That's actually part of the problem. That person should not be bumped up because it's just going to piss people off. It is about speed (mostly apex speed) and your very fast buddy was wrong about the lady.
Yes, I think grouping by laptimes is best. Limits number of interactions and possibly bad ones.
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Old February 3rd, 2018, 09:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Zaph42 View Post
I agree newbs on literbikes should be in novice. But I severely disagree that smooth riders should be bumped up. Being smooth and predictable shouldn't mean you get a free pass to run up one class. A common mistake CR's make is when they bump up someone on a fast bike who is smooth but kinda slow. That's actually part of the problem. That person should not be bumped up because it's just going to piss people off. It is about speed (mostly apex speed) and your very fast buddy was wrong about the lady.

Next related subject. When I make complaints like this, there's always a contingent of posters who act like "Well well, look at mister super duper fast, who doesn't like all the many many slow people at the racetrack." It's not like that at all, it's just track day frustrations. And these frustrations aren't from a lack of skill, where a CR/coach can jump in and save the day. It's just the way most track days are organized and run.

Most of my frustration went away when I started racing, where riders on similar bikes can let skill sort out the pecking order, no CR's needed. 2016 was the last year I raced before I had to retire due to medical issues, but man I had more fun than my first 4 years of track days combined. You also have to like where a bump from amateur to expert happens based on merit derived from statistics, rather than one CR's opinion which is not always always the best.

Getting kinda off topic here, sorry. To the original poster: Don't worry about what group you're in and just focus on having fun.
Having experienced fast guys coming by me as a fairly common occurrence during three hour endurance races, I'd much rather have the experienced fast guys go by me than the often hair raising experience of trying to get by a slow person. Whether the bike is slow or fast, it's the unpredictability of a less experienced rider that can cause the most trouble. Only a few of the truly fast guys get by our team in a corner anyway because we're able to generate the same or better speed in turns.

So I get passed on straights a ton and I don't care. If someone tries to show me a wheel right before a turn, I keep right on going and make them work for it. As for coming on a fast bike/slow rider, I just have to work on strategic passing so that I get by them early in a set of turns and put enough distance on them before we get to the next straight so they can't pass me back.

Endurance racing or trackdays, That's part of the game riding a smaller bike at the same time as bigger bikes. If you don't like it, the solution is simple: Just get a bigger bike.

Skill is the best indicator of relative safety IMO, so groups should be organized that way.

Making a bunch of passing rules for trakdays is not good because it complicates the things that a rider has to think about. This can cause focus issues which itself can be a safety concern.

I also agree that sprint racing pretty much eliminates this issue due to similar bikes being on track at the same time and leveling the playing field somewhat.
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