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Old April 11th, 2018, 05:26 PM   #1
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A different kind of tire question.....

Hey you all! New to the site here but I have been reading up on all the cool stuff.
I just got myself a new set of Pirelli Sport Demon tires (not mounted yet) for my Fire Breathing 2002 250 Ninja. The date codes on these new tires seem kinda old. The front tire is marked 0815 and the rear is 1316. That makes the front tire already over 3 years old and the back tire is not far behind. The tires look fine but are already middle aged (Kinda like me). Is this something that I should be worried about? What are these gonna be like in 4 or 5 years?
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Old April 11th, 2018, 06:04 PM   #2
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You're right about the codes, and I wouldn't be happy about that, but I also wouldn't worry if I thought they'd be worn out in two or three years.

I'm quite sure others will disagree, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not to complain to the seller.
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Old April 11th, 2018, 06:04 PM   #3
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If they were stored out of the sun, I wouldn't worry about them.
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Old April 11th, 2018, 07:03 PM   #4
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I always ask the age of a tire before I buy, unless I'm buying fresh race tires at the track which are always about a month old. And if the guy I talk to doesn't feel like getting out of his chair to look in the warehouse, the next question is the last date a batch was ordered. That info is usually in a vendor's business software.

There are sooo many vendors out there with ancient stock. And your chances of getting that old stock is the highest when you buy tires that are heavily discounted.

How they are stored is important, but don't expect an honest answer when you ask that. I know one Michigan vendor who keeps their tires in an unheated building that can reach -10 deg in the winter, and another in Cali that keeps some of their stock in a metal shipping container in the desert - with a daily temp swing of about 100 degrees. Temperature is important, more so with sport tires.
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Old April 11th, 2018, 09:11 PM   #5
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-10 is fine, but not the desert container!
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Old April 11th, 2018, 09:16 PM   #6
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I have a set of 9-year old BT-45s on my '08 250R, Used them at Thunderhill and got a 2:22 or so lap-time. Just a couple seconds behind some brand-new Alpha-13s. Perfectly well behaved.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 06:43 AM   #7
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-10 is fine, but not the desert container!
-10 is fine for regular tires but not race tires. but the tires he is talking about are of the regular variety.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 08:09 AM   #8
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Here's some guidelines from Pirelli. Tire Use Guidelines.pdf

Quote:
"The mere passage of time (age) does not cause tires to deteriorate, but rather exposure to outside forces. Such outside forces can include, but are not limited to: road hazards, punctures, improper repairs, misalignment, under inflated operation, over inflated operation, excessive heat caused by over deflected operation, excessive exposure to ozone, improper storage conditions, etc.

Tire companies can only have an impact on a few of these exposures. Tire companies add anti-ozinants and anti-oxidants (anti-degradation compounds) to minimize degradation. Pirelli believes that since there is no way to accurately predict what outside forces a tire will be exposed to, there is no scientifically supportable age limit that can be set for tires."
Also good video from Dunlop.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old April 12th, 2018, 08:38 AM   #9
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Here's some guidelines from Pirelli. Tire Use Guidelines.pdf
Ya - sounds good, but I'm not buying it... Sounds more like a disclaimer.

I've had some of the worst degradation of traction over time (3 years) with Pirelli rubber, both on my cars and Ninjas, to the point where I won't buy Pirelli tires any more.

Rubber, and traction, degrade with age. Maybe not in perfect conditions, but it does in the real world.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 09:20 AM   #10
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Ya - sounds good, but I'm not buying it... Sounds more like a disclaimer.

I've had some of the worst degradation of traction over time (3 years) with Pirelli rubber, both on my cars and Ninjas, to the point where I won't buy Pirelli tires any more.

Rubber, and traction, degrade with age. Maybe not in perfect conditions, but it does in the real world.
I've had some pro-racer friends swear off Dunlops for exact same reason. I suspect there are always a few bad apples that spoil entire barrel. A bad tyre here and there may slip through QC. Or it may have been mishandled in shipping or may have been improperly stored before sale. The issue for my AMA racer was when presented with obviously bad tire, Dunlop refused to accept any responsibility or make things right. Lost a customer for life.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 09:31 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lump View Post
Hey you all! New to the site here but I have been reading up on all the cool stuff.
I just got myself a new set of Pirelli Sport Demon tires (not mounted yet) for my Fire Breathing 2002 250 Ninja. The date codes on these new tires seem kinda old. The front tire is marked 0815 and the rear is 1316. That makes the front tire already over 3 years old and the back tire is not far behind. The tires look fine but are already middle aged (Kinda like me). Is this something that I should be worried about? What are these gonna be like in 4 or 5 years?
Cheers
No worries if you adopt some safe riding techniques:

- monitor tire pressures, I check weekly and set street tyres to 30/32psi. Race tyres 27/25psi. CBR600RR gets 34/33psi.

- warm up tyres gradually before pushing them. Best done when vertical, gradually increase throttle each time. Brake harder and harder each time. Feel for reaching limits of traction gradually. Street tyres won't have as great improvement in grip with warm-up as DOT-R track tyres.

- don't ride over your comfort and handling limits.


I've found with these simple guidelines, I can take any tyre to its limits safely. Increasing speeds gradually is the key as you'll get a feel for when tyre reaches limit without grossly going over and sliding. You'll also get a feel for slides and catching them if you approach that limit gradually. And... you'll find that speed when they reach the limit varies between different tyre models. That's OK, as long as you approach it gradually, you won't go over. I've found that tightening the nut behind the bars makes the biggest difference.

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Old April 12th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #12
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since we are talking about tire pressure. the shinko rep recommended running exactly what’s on the side of the tire. should i do this? everybody seems to have a different opinion on this matter.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 10:41 AM   #13
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No, that's corporate CYA. That number is "max-load" pressure, which is when tyre can support the most weight. Review Ford Explorer tyre blow-outs.



However, that's not safest pressure as it will reduce grip too much, and wear badly with thin stripe down middle. Although I do add 3/5-psi to tyres when carrying passenger, which brings up rear pressure just under that max-load pressure.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 11:21 AM   #14
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since we are talking about tire pressure. the shinko rep recommended running exactly what’s on the side of the tire. should i do this? everybody seems to have a different opinion on this matter.
Most tire manufactures just suggest running what it says in the manual or on a sticker on the bike.

You don't want to run it at max pressure - like it says on the sidewall.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 12:32 PM   #15
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thanx
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Old April 12th, 2018, 01:23 PM   #16
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from shinko
Here is the message from the factory:

Our tires are destined to be run at what the sidewall of the tire says and not the owners manual. they say lower lower pressure allows to much heat generation which will destroy the tire. ???
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Old April 12th, 2018, 01:26 PM   #17
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i run 1 or 2 pounds below what is says on side of tire.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 01:28 PM   #18
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Most tire manufactures just suggest running what it says in the manual or on a sticker on the bike.

You don't want to run it at max pressure - like it says on the sidewall.
shinko says otherwise
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Old April 12th, 2018, 02:56 PM   #19
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shinko says otherwise
That's weird...
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Old April 12th, 2018, 02:59 PM   #20
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>>Shinko recommends to run the pressure listed on the tire. We have many riders running 705's on their V-Stroms
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Old April 12th, 2018, 03:18 PM   #21
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do the debate rages on? does this mean low pressure means higher tire temp?
is the manufacturer right or wrong in recommended tire pressure settings?
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Old April 13th, 2018, 10:34 AM   #22
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This is what the retailer told me about the tires.
I asked Pirelli about new tire age and the have not gotten back to me after a week. Crappy customer service. Probably the last tires I will buy from PIRELLI.

Our tire manufactures are not aware of any scientific or technical data that is considered reliable at identifying a specific minimum or maximum life span for tires. For this reason, it is not appropriate to establish an arbitrary service life simply based on chronological age due to the wide variety of factors affecting a tire.

The main source of tires are located overseas with the exception of Dunlop which manufacture only a few models of tires in the US the rest being manufactured overseas. China, Brazil, Germany. Once the manufacture has manufactured the tires, they are stored in their warehouse until a shipment is ready to be sent to a distributor. They are then stored with the distributor until a retailer purchases the tire. From there, they are shipped to the retailer until the consumer purchases the tires. This process takes up to 1 and ½ year to get tires. Because of the manufacturing process, the tires are made in large batches, and the distributors will usually order up to a year’s supply of tires, so that they can get a better discount from the manufacture, which will lead to tires that are easily over a year old before we (as a retailer) will get the tires.

Therefore, standard age of tire by the time the consumer receives the new tire usually is 1 ½ years new.

We rotate stock on a daily basis so the oldest shipments will ship out first, and the new shipments that we receive will go to the back of the racks.

Motorcycle tires, when properly stored and cared for, have a long service life. When stored properly, tires from 5-7 years old can retain all the chemical and physical properties of a brand new tire. Most manufacturers recommend tires 10 years or older to be replaced by a new set, regardless of storage or usage circumstances.



The front tire you received is well within the manufactures parameters of the 5-7 service life. The date code being the 08/15 that would put the date of the eight week of 2015.





Based on the above information, if you are uncomfortable with the age of the tire you receive and would like to return the tire(s), you would be responsible for covering the return freight..
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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
shinko says otherwise
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
>>Shinko recommends to run the pressure listed on the tire. We have many riders running 705's on their V-Stroms
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
do the debate rages on? does this mean low pressure means higher tire temp?
is the manufacturer right or wrong in recommended tire pressure settings?
As a manufacturer, they have to protect themselves against liabilities. That's measured as lowest number of unforced failures. Running a tyre at max-load pressure ensures the lowest amount of failures.

However, as end-users we have other priorities such as comfort, performance and durability. All those needs adjusting pressures to fit riding styles and total weight. Pressures that work for a Vstrom cannot possibly work for a much lighter Ninjette.

Yes, pressure and heat are related. There is an optimum pressure for maximum grip and it's not the same pressure as maximum load-carrying. Max-grip is when rubber is 180-190F and typically requires lowering pressure enough to generate sufficient flex to build that heat. Comes out to mid 20s on track for my Ninjette. However with more load & weight that may cause overheating failure. And dealing with potholes, cats, etc. I use low 30s for street riding. Mid 30s on my heavier CBR.

This is why they suggest max-load pressure regardless of actual load, least number of failures where they can be found at fault. For example, you use max-load pressure and crash due to insufficient grip. Death-scene investigator find both tyres intact and not overloaded. Writes down tyres not at fault, obviously rider error, most likely speeding.

There's no one "correct" pressure. It's based upon your requirements on what you want to get out of your tyres, not the manufacturer's.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:30 PM   #24
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so, how many pounds do i go below what’s on the side of the tire?
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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:36 PM   #25
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so, how many pounds do i go below what’s on the side of the tire?
Start with what the bike owner's manual suggests and take notes. Take away 2-3 psi lower and see how it feels. Add 2-3 psi and see how that feels. Use an infrared pyrometer to measure actual tyre temps and correlate that with how it feels. I'm a little lighter than most and find best grip is below what's listed in manual. My service manual shows 28/32 F/R
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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:49 PM   #26
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This is what the retailer told me about the tires.
I asked Pirelli about new tire age and the have not gotten back to me after a week. Crappy customer service. Probably the last tires I will buy from PIRELLI.
I sent Michelin a message a month ago and haven't heard back.

The submission confirmation email said it may that 2 to 5 days to get a reply.

I've had 4 sets of Pirelli tires (2 auto and 2 cycle) that have both shown signs of early deterioration. Cracking of the rubber and loss of traction on tires that are 3 to 4 years old isn't acceptable in my mind.

Goodyear auto tires failed in about the same time frame.

Michelin has done the best as far as durability for auto tires in my experience.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:58 PM   #27
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Pirelli has really gone downhill!! Wish Michelin was more popular at track-days, I really do like their tires for autos. But, being capitalists, there can be only ONE tyre vendor at the track. Depending upon event, it's either Dunlop or Pirelli. I make sure I have sufficient spares and have two sets of extra wheels with different tyres mounted. Trying out new Bridgestone RS11 and Dunlop Q3+ today.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 02:20 PM   #28
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Anybody used the Shinko 740/741 tires?
Maybe I'll go that route.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 06:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
from shinko
Here is the message from the factory:

Our tires are destined to be run at what the sidewall of the tire says and not the owners manual. they say lower lower pressure allows to much heat generation which will destroy the tire. ???
Ran across this on the Michelin site -

"The mandatory pressure for road use is set by the manufacturer. It can be found in the Owner's Manual of the vehicle or on the vehicle itself. The inflation pressure indicated in these documents is for inflation when cold. In the absence of these documents, contact the manufacturer network. NB: The maximum pressure indicated on the tyre should under no circumstances be considered safe for road usage"

Interesting that they differ completely.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 07:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lump View Post
Anybody used the Shinko 740/741 tires?
Maybe I'll go that route.
I don't think you can go wrong with those tyres. I'm on my 4th set of Shinko radials on my CBR600RR. Shinko are made in the former Yokohama plants, so lots of experience in those tyres. They're more capable then most riders' demands on street.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...13#post1001513
http://vfrworld.com/threads/shinko-t...-review.15098/ - read 2nd review 1/2-way down too
http://xjrider.com/viewtopic.php?t=6630
http://www.ex-500.com/15-suspension-...s/27122?page=1
https://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tub...e-tire/p/19582 - check out reviews

Here's video of some guys I've ridden with; we all love Shinko tyres.

Link to original page on YouTube.


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Old April 28th, 2018, 10:37 PM   #31
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still wondering why they say to go by recommend pressure on side of tire. i have the 740/741’s. i put 2 pounds less in.
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Old April 29th, 2018, 05:57 AM   #32
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
still wondering why they say to go by recommend pressure on side of tire. i have the 740/741’s. i put 2 pounds less in.
Corporate CYA. Being one of the newer manufacturers to come out after the Ford + Firestone fiasco, they probably want minimum liability. Ford really screwed over Firestone by using too-low of pressure to make up for a suspension deficiency.

On our Ninjettes though, the owner's manual does specify near-optimum pressures for performance, comfort and durability. Give it a try +2-3psi and you'll find bike handles better, feels less nervous on turn-in, more stable in steady cornering, has more grip and is more comfortable. Will also last twice as long.

Suspension settings should also be optimised. Add some preload and stiffer springs to fork. Or chop off 3.75" from spring and replace with 4" PVC spacer.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 30th, 2018 at 09:59 AM.
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Old May 27th, 2018, 09:55 AM   #33
DannoXYZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Some tyre pressure guidelines at track today. They vary based upon various conditions such as humidity, air temp, track temp, phase of the moon, etc.





I’m using 28/26 today at Thunderhill. Currently 77F with predicted high of 93F.
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Old May 27th, 2018, 12:56 PM   #34
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OK, regarding Tyre pressure, there are some things you need to now.
First all tyres are specified with a maximum cold pressure on the side wall, but remember COLD means 20dgrees Celcius or 20C.
Next all tyres when used generate heat in the tyre due to flexation of the carcass, this will increase the pressure in the tyre. The heat generated is proportional to ambient air & road surface temps & to the use cycle. So on a cold day on a cold damp road, you don't get much heat in your tyre & this directly affects the grip level of the rubber compound. Conversely a trackday or race on a hot dry sunny day will add a lot of heat to your tyre due to the hard acceleration & braking, plus cornering loads.

Thus if you set max pressure on a cold damp day then it will be like skating on ice. By comparison if you did the same on a hot day at the track, you would quickly over heat the tyre & its max pressure levels, leading to a skating feeling in a few laps.

So manufacturers specify a pressure front & rear based on the expected nominal loads the bike is expected to experience, across a wide temperature range & varied use. So unless you fully understand the variables, then you should always use the Bike manufacturers recommended figures, UNLESS the tyre manufacturer has a specific recommendation for a certain model of tyre on your model of bike.

Now track day riders & racers will use much lower pressures, to allow the tyre to operate at the optimum pressure once heated in use. Likewise smart road riders will work out the best pressure for their use on their bike based on local ambient conditions & rider use models. So a gentle rider in a cold place would generally have better grip with pressures below the bike manufacturers recommended pressure. But a harder riding rider may use higher pressures than the gentle rider in the same conditions, due to the harder flex applied to the tyre by more agressive riders.

But remember pressure also affects handling, so a low front pressure will give a distinctly poor feeling until the pressure is corrected by heat. If the heat can't be generated the bike will handle like crap. So be careful what you do & adjust by a maximum 2psi either way when finding your sweet spot.

YMMV & YOU are responsible for YOUR own & all other road users safety when playing with safety settings !

If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T do it !
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