Downshifting for turns

[dcx4610]

I'm about 500 miles in on my 250 so far and I seem to be handling everything pretty well. One thing that I'm still not good at though is downshifting.

I guess I just haven't gotten used to when to downshift and the proper technique and although I haven't had any scary moments yet, I've done things that have felt "wrong" and felt like they could have been dangerous.

I have a bad habit of coming up on a turn, holding in the clutch, braking and then coasting through the turn with the clutch held in. After the turn, I let out the clutch. I know this isn't correct and could be bad news but I have it stuck in my head that you always hold in the clutch while you brake.

So let's saying I'm riding in 4th gear and I know a turn is coming up soon. What should be the proper sequence for the turn? Should I downshift one gear, begin braking (without the clutch) and then make the turn?

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I'm about 500 miles in on my 250 so far and I seem to be handling everything pretty well. One thing that I'm still not good at though is downshifting.

I guess I just haven't gotten used to when to downshift and the proper technique and although I haven't had any scary moments yet, I've done things that have felt "wrong" and felt like they could have been dangerous.

I have a bad habit of coming up on a turn, holding in the clutch, braking and then coasting through the turn with the clutch held in. After the turn, I let out the clutch. I know this isn't correct and could be bad news but I have it stuck in my head that you always hold in the clutch while you brake.

So let's saying I'm riding in 4th gear and I know a turn is coming up soon. What should be the proper sequence for the turn? Should I downshift one gear, begin braking (without the clutch) and then make the turn?

That's the first bad habit you must get rid of.

Rolling off the throttle with the clutch out will slow the bike down, you can get to a point where you pick your gear & revs so that you rarely use the brakes unless coming to a stop (but that's a bit more advanced)

Roll off, brake & then clutch in if you're stopping from 2nd.

roll off, brake, blip the throttle, then clutch in drop a gear & clutch back out. Do the underlined bit both quickly & smoothly, try to get the revs up by about a thousand when you blip, it should help match speed.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I have a bad habit of coming up on a turn, holding in the clutch, braking and then coasting through the turn with the clutch held in. After the turn, I let out the clutch. I know this isn't correct and could be bad news but I have it stuck in my head that you always hold in the clutch while you brake

you do not want to be leaned over without being on the gas. this will lead to a crash. you will overload the front tire and drop the bike.

finish all of your braking and downshifting (any slowing down) before you begin the turn. once you are done slowing down, the clutch should be fully disengaged. now counter-steer and lean over. after you begin your turn roll on the gas smoothely and evenly for the remainder of the turn.


i suggest you take the msf course.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

roll off, brake, blip the throttle, then clutch in drop a gear & clutch back out. Do the underlined bit both quickly & smoothly, try to get the revs up by about a thousand when you blip, it should help match speed.

blip throttle, and then clutch in? if you want to upset the chassis and put unwanted stress on your dogs.


clutch in, change, blip, clutch out.

but honestly he shouldn't be thinking about blipping at this point.

[adouglas]

Get all your braking and downshifting done before you turn in. Once the throttle is cracked open (right after you turn in), accelerate gently and CONTINUOUSLY through the turn.

So, say you're going 40 mph in third gear on a suburban street and coming up to a right-angle turn.

Brake while still going straight. Downshift to second gear as you pass through 30 mph on your way to 20. Let the clutch out, coordinating with your throttle to keep the bike from upsetting. As you gain skill, you can do both of these things at the same time.

You're now slow enough to turn in, and in the proper gear to carry you through the turn. Your clutch is out. As you gain skill, you can time your braking, shifting and clutch-letting-outing so it is more precisely aligned with turn-in. The goal is to be smooth and in a position to apply power throughout the turn.

Initiate the turn and start to gently roll on the throttle right away. Don't coast and then whack on the gas in the turn, and don't back off the throttle once you've cracked it open. Do your steering at the start of the turn and don't mess with your line unless you have to. Don't brake in the turn. All of these upset the bike.

Keep accelerating gently all the time, from turn entry all the way through the exit. Look at the exit and beyond, not at what's in front of the bike or at the apex. You will go where you look.

Now that you've had some fun, go buy a copy of Twist of the Wrist II and preferably the video too. It covers this stuff.

[flynjay]

Braking and downshifting should be occuring at the same time. Consider downshifting a form of braking. You want to be setup near the powerband, so you can slowly accelerate through the turn. The slow roll of the throttle helps steady the bike.

Slow - Look - Press - Roll

[02337]

If you've ever driven a manual car before the same rev matching applies as you're letting out the clutch. Twisting the throttle as in revving the bike and letting out the clutch smoothly results in the engine speeds thing the trans speed and a smooth down shift.

Try this in higher gears and low speeds to get the hang of it. Basically if the engine is moving at 2k rpms and the transmission is moving much faster it going to be abrupt when they engage one another as you let the clutch out. Goal is to twist the throttle and release the clutch to get the motor matched a closely to the transmissions speed as possible.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

So let's saying I'm riding in 4th gear and I know a turn is coming up soon. What should be the proper sequence for the turn? Should I downshift one gear, begin braking (without the clutch) and then make the turn?

Conservative advice for a new street rider: yes. Downshift, then begin braking (you'll feel the engine slow down more quickly than if you just let it engine brake, this is okay) once you get down to a safe entry speed, get back onto the gas enough to keep a constant speed. This will keep the bike stable and smooth while turning in. As you come to apex and begin exiting the turn, roll on the throttle smoothly. This will keep the bike smooth and calm the whole way through the turn. Rolling on the throttle is a very important step because a motorcycle is stable when weight is on the back wheel. Rolling on the throttle accelerates you a little bit, which loads the rear wheel, making the bike more stable and planted through the turn. When you pull in the clutch and coast through the turn, this means the nose is heavy, and the bike kinda wallows through the turn. I'm not saying pin the throttle wide open, just a nice smooth roll on. You'll feel the back squat a little, and the bike will nicely negotiate the turn.

Remember the steps from the MSF course for a turn: Slow, look, press, roll.

Slow to a safe speed/proper gear early.
Look deep through your turn, all the way to apex or even the exit, depending on how fast you're going. This is just as important as the inputs you give the bike. Your body always follows your head.
Press the inside bar to lean the bike into the turn.
Roll on the throttle to keep the bike steady and accelerate gradually through the turn.

Those 4 steps are vital to safely making it through turns.

I hope that helped a little bit.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

blip throttle, and then clutch in? if you want to upset the chassis and put unwanted stress on your dogs.


clutch in, change, blip, clutch out.

but honestly he shouldn't be thinking about blipping at this point.

Both are pretty much simultaneous, i'm trying to work the controls through on air handlebars here, slow it down & put down what I'm doing in writing...

[02337]

Really you're not going to get it without trying it. It's as simple as Alex put it, clutch in, gear down, blip the throttle a bit and let out of clutch. It's a muscle memory after a while, takes nothing but practice. Please practice on straights and at slow speeds and you don't want to try and go into 1st or 2nd doing 60.

[BlueJeepYJ]

I have about 700 miles on my 250 and am very intrigued by the technicality of this. I believe its a similar question as the OP. His being turn entry and mine more for coming to a complete stop.

I have no problem down shifting when you have a looonng distance to stop, but down shifting (clutch, shift, blip, clutch) 5 times when coming to a stop over and over again in a more urban environment is not effective (in my opinion at my current noob status) The way I have been doing it for example when I am driving on city streets... going about 60, approaching a red light... Clutch, break with both brakes , shift down slowly relative to the gear for the speed I am going and then be shifting into first as I put my foot down.

Also... I took the MSF course and understand Slow, look, press and roll but in NO way did they get into the kind of detail or technicality being discussed in this thread.

Thanks for the help!

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Both are pretty much simultaneous, i'm trying to work the controls through on air handlebars here, slow it down & put down what I'm doing in writing...

they are very close. but what you are describing is a clutchless pull out from the blip (between dog teeth) which has a small possibility of hitting the other side of the dog trench and then transitioning into a clutched slide into the next gear. by the time its in the next gear its already heading down which means you would have had to blip larger initially to carry it through. another side effect is the speed at which it disengaged. with a clutchless blip take out it cuts the power almost instantaneously. good for a quick shift, not so good for keeping the chassis smooth. its faster but theres no need for the speed at that point when the brakes are providing all of the acceleration (reverse acceleration). so my question is, what do you want, a smoother down shift or a quicker down shift?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by BlueJeepYJ

I have about 700 miles on my 250 and am very intrigued by the technicality of this. I believe its a similar question as the OP. His being turn entry and mine more for coming to a complete stop.

I have no problem down shifting when you have a looonng distance to stop, but down shifting (clutch, shift, blip, clutch) 5 times when coming to a stop over and over again in a more urban environment is not effective (in my opinion at my current noob status) The way I have been doing it for example when I am driving on city streets... going about 60, approaching a red light... Clutch, break with both brakes , shift down slowly relative to the gear for the speed I am going and then be shifting into first as I put my foot down.

Also... I took the MSF course and understand Slow, look, press and roll but in NO way did they get into the kind of detail or technicality being discussed in this thread.

Thanks for the help!

when im riding casually and coming to a stop i only do a single clutch pull, and dont blip. just make sure you dont go down gears too fast or your slam your dogs

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by BlueJeepYJ

I have about 700 miles on my 250 and am very intrigued by the technicality of this. I believe its a similar question as the OP. His being turn entry and mine more for coming to a complete stop.

I have no problem down shifting when you have a looonng distance to stop, but down shifting (clutch, shift, blip, clutch) 5 times when coming to a stop over and over again in a more urban environment is not effective (in my opinion at my current noob status) The way I have been doing it for example when I am driving on city streets... going about 60, approaching a red light... Clutch, break with both brakes , shift down slowly relative to the gear for the speed I am going and then be shifting into first as I put my foot down.

Also... I took the MSF course and understand Slow, look, press and roll but in NO way did they get into the kind of detail or technicality being discussed in this thread.

Thanks for the help!

Downshift more than one gear before you blip and let out the clutch...if you are slowing down quicker than you can hit every gear on the way down.

For example...
Clutch in, Drop from 6th to 4th, blip it to match the revs, and clutch out...then clutch in, drop from 4th to 2nd, blip it to match the revs, and clutch out.

MSF just keeps you from killing yourself in a parking lot unfortunately. I'm not a big MSF fan. While I think it has some value for complete newbies, its nothing you cant learn by reading a book and spending some time in a parking lot on your own.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Downshift more than one gear before you blip and let out the clutch...if you are slowing down quicker than you can hit every gear on the way down.

For example...
Clutch in, Drop from 6th to 4th, blip it to match the revs, and clutch out...then clutch in, drop from 4th to 2nd, blip it to match the revs, and clutch out.

MSF just keeps you from killing yourself in a parking lot unfortunately. I'm not a big MSF fan. While I think it has some value for complete newbies, its nothing you cant learn by reading a book and spending some time in a parking lot on your own.

the only reason im a fan of the msf is because it connects people who don't know how to ride a bike with exactly what they need- someone who knows how to ride a bike.

books are geat but there's nothing like having someone experienced take 5 seconds watching you and tell you you are doing everything wrong.

[02337]

I downshift while coming to a stop but hold the clutch in downshifting as i decrease speed, I'm in the correct gear in case I needed to abruptly move or the light turns green. Im not a fan of engine braking when pads cost so little. I think the key is to always be in the right gear even when coasting. Granted this is only on straights. If its a slow turn to a light I'm always engaged a gear and downshifting.

[bdavison]

The only time the clutch should be pulled in and the wheels rolling is when you are pushing it out of the garage.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by bdavison

The only time the clutch should be pulled in and the wheels rolling is when you are pushing it out of the garage.

so you take it out of neutral to push it... weird

[02337]

Engine braking as never made much sense to me, unneeded stress on things that don't need to be stressed. It's not like you're using throttle when you're coming to a stop in gear so loading the front makes no difference as its all on the front anyway. I'd be curious to see the actual technical reason why you should have the clutch out in 2nd gear as opposed to clutch in when rolling the same speed in the same traffic situation.

I'm not saying to coast from 60mph to stop at idle but no reason anyone should be downshifting to first when you're going to come to a complete stop...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

so you take it out of neutral to push it... weird

i park in first gear. neutral is not something i use outside of diagnosing problems. or if i run out of gas and am going to be pushing it more than a mile.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by 02337

Engine braking as never made much sense to me, unneeded stress on things that don't need to be stressed. It's not like you're using throttle when you're coming to a stop in gear so loading the front makes no difference as its all on the front anyway. I'd be curious to see the actual technical reason why you should have the clutch out in 2nd gear as opposed to clutch in when rolling the same speed in the same traffic situation.

I'm not saying to coast from 60mph to stop at idle but no reason anyone should be downshifting to first when you're going to come to a complete stop...

leaving the engine engaged while you brake is not engine braking.
leaving the engine engaged while you brake also does not cause damage. the "wear" you speak of is so minimal that simply driving causes about the same amount of damage in a well running engine. now, we are not talking about dumping it into 1st and sending the rpms to 20 grand, which will blow your head out.
there are reasons to leave the engine engaged, but all of the reasons are edge cases where you are having to cope with something unexpected.

one reason outside of those edge cases to leaving it engaged while braking with the front brake is stability. it helps keep the rear wheel seated while you have all the weight on the front.

but you are right. if you are going slow and casually, there is no specific need for one way or the other. but experience tells you being able to instantly have power *if you need it* is very useful.

[02337]

I guess I got confused with the point that was trying to be put across, I took it as saying no you must downshift though every single gear as braking. In some scenarios I can understand not coasting, ie, light turning green, yielding and no traffic coming etc. I really think its a case by case basis.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by 02337

Engine braking as never made much sense to me, unneeded stress on things that don't need to be stressed. It's not like you're using throttle when you're coming to a stop in gear so loading the front makes no difference as its all on the front anyway. I'd be curious to see the actual technical reason why you should have the clutch out in 2nd gear as opposed to clutch in when rolling the same speed in the same traffic situation.

I'm not saying to coast from 60mph to stop at idle but no reason anyone should be downshifting to first when you're going to come to a complete stop...

Have to agree with that.

Coming to a complete stop should be done in 2nd, then down into neutral or hold the clutch in, first is only for pulling off.

[ninjamunky85]

Brakes are for noobs, I barely use mine.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Coming to a complete stop should be done in 2nd, then down into neutral or hold the clutch in, first is only for pulling off.

[flynjay]

I usually down shift through the first two gears. Let the motor wind down to 3k or so and then pull the clutch and go down the rest of the way to first 1 at a time.

Ex: 50 mph cruizing at 6K in 6th; start braking, down to 5th let it out, down to 4th let it out. At this point I'm probalbly at 25-30mph continue to brake while the engine winds down to 3k pull in clutch and shift down 3 - 2 - 1 - Stop. Usually 1-2 s break between shifts.

The first two shifts down mimic what the OP should be doing for most turns.

[dcx4610]

Thanks for the tips. I'm comfortable engine braking but I feel it's a little dangerous to do it on busy streets with cars behind you since they don't see a brake light.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the proper technique to use your brakes for a turn. Say I'm coming up in 4th to turn into a parking lot. Should I hold in the clutch, brake+downshift, blip, release while maintaining a slow brake right before the turn?

Is it proper to brake without holding the clutch in? I could have swore they said in MSF to always have the clutch in if you are braking so you can downshift.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Thanks for the tips. I'm comfortable engine braking but I feel it's a little dangerous to do it on busy streets with cars behind you since they don't see a brake light.

Using the clutch and braking are not two mutually exclusive things. You're perfectly fine to let the engine slow as you apply brakes. Use the front brake to slow the front wheel and light the brake light, and use the engine to slow the rear wheel a little. Right before you stop, pull the clutch in and transition to the rear brake to make your stop a little more smooth. Obviously, don't slow down in busy traffic without using the brake light...

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I guess I'm trying to figure out the proper technique to use your brakes for a turn. Say I'm coming up in 4th to turn into a parking lot. Should I hold in the clutch, brake+downshift, blip, release while maintaining a slow brake right before the turn?

I would brake smoothly to get to the speed I wanted to be at for the turn. Downshifting is just to get the engine to the right speed as the forward speed changes. You're over thinking it here.

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Is it proper to brake without holding the clutch in? I could have swore they said in MSF to always have the clutch in if you are braking so you can downshift.

Yes. It's perfectly fine. My MSF course never said a thing about holding the clutch in and coasting every time you use the brakes.

I personally am not a fan of holding the clutch and just coasting while I use the brakes to slow down. It makes me a sitting duck if someone comes up behind me fast or something happens; there's always that chance that the bike will pop out of gear, plus the 250 takes time to rev up, so I have to hold the throttle for a second to get the engine up to speed so the bike doesn't jerk. Where if I downshift with my speed changes, all I have to do is twist the throttle if I need to get out of the way or make a lane change or something.

As a beginner, you need to be in the right gear before you're changing direction, not right as you turn in. You need to focus on being smooth. If you coast with the clutch pulled as you slow down for a turn, that's one more thing you have to do before you turn in; rev match the engine and let the clutch back out, which is one of the more jerky things that new riders do on a motorcycle. I say, keep the engine engaged while slowing, downshift to keep the engine in a happy place, and slow for your turning speed. Then all you have to do is twist the throttle and you're well on your way to a smooth and controlled turn.

[Motofool]

Really great advice above !

In my opinion, the OP is in great danger being so confused about these things and riding in traffic.

First thing is to learn to brake in an effective and instinctive way.

After that, to learn to take a turn with the bike under power or connected to the engine.
This can be achieved by traveling at the entry speed before and during the turn, doing neither brake nor shifting, just being smooth with the throttle as advised above.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Jim Moore]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Is it proper to brake without holding the clutch in? I could have swore they said in MSF to always have the clutch in if you are braking so you can downshift.

Actually they say the exact opposite on several exercises. If you're already in the correct gear for the corner, simply slow using the brakes and look, press, roll.

As far as which to do first with downshifting and braking, here's a thought. I do my braking first. If I don't get all my shifting done, I'm in too high a gear for the corner. It kills my drive out of the corner, but it's not a huge deal. If I don't get all my braking done, I'm liable to end up in Mrs. Johnson's rose bushes. Much bigger deal.

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

so you take it out of neutral to push it... weird

What the heck is neutral....

yeah...its like that

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Have to agree with that.

Coming to a complete stop should be done in 2nd, then down into neutral or hold the clutch in, first is only for pulling off.

THIS is REALLY BAD ADVICE.
DO NOT DO THIS.

I can't count how many times I've seen bikers get rear-ended by some cager not paying attention because they couldnt get it out of neutral to get out of the way fast enough.

If the motor is running, it should be in gear....ALWAYS.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by bdavison

THIS is REALLY BAD ADVICE.
DO NOT DO THIS.

I can't count how many times I've seen bikers get rear-ended by some cager not paying attention because they couldnt get it out of neutral to get out of the way fast enough.

If the motor is running, it should be in gear....ALWAYS.

yeah. in my opinion, neutral is something you only use while you are off the bike

[choneofakind]

Same. My bike is never in neutral. Either with the clutch lever out and riding, or the clutch in, sitting at a light.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by bdavison

THIS is REALLY BAD ADVICE.
DO NOT DO THIS.

I can't count how many times I've seen bikers get rear-ended by some cager not paying attention because they couldnt get it out of neutral to get out of the way fast enough.

If the motor is running, it should be in gear....ALWAYS.

Clicking into neutral is fairly common here, it probably comes from the fact that you filter up to the top of a line of stopped cages, then click in. If there's empty space behind you then you should have an escape route planned & be in gear ready to go, but if there's a line of stopped vehicles behind you neutral is fine.

[dirty nasty]

Drop a bunch of liquid acid then take the bike out for a cruise. Listen to the engine and feel it. You'll figure it out.

Seriously.

Okay, but having the clutch held in while turning is TERRIBLE. You need to be on the gas in a turn. I downshift to the appropriate gear for the turn. If it's a 90 degree turn I'll go into second gear if I want to putt through it, but down to first if I want to rip through it. I engine brake and apply the front brake at the same time to slow myself. The engine is doing a lot of the slowing, the brake is just to turn the light on to alert idiots behind me I am slowing. I down shift and rev match to stay in the power band that I want when going through the turn.

Also, at lights, always stay in gear and have an escape route planned. The only time I will put my bike into neutral is if a few cars are behind me and have already stopped. Short of an 18 wheeler crashing into everyone at 100 MPH, I would think a few cushions (other cars) in-between I and the car behind me should suffice in keeping me safe from the rear.

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Clicking into neutral is fairly common here, it probably comes from the fact that you filter up to the top of a line of stopped cages, then click in. If there's empty space behind you then you should have an escape route planned & be in gear ready to go, but if there's a line of stopped vehicles behind you neutral is fine.

Actually....no....its not.

If you are stopped in neutral with two Geo metro's behind you, and all of a sudden you hear jake braking and the squeal of 10,000lbs of wal-mart's finest in a semi locking up the brakes....

Your choices are:

1. Neutral = the mayo to a geo metro sandwich.
2. 1st gear = having to fill out a witness form.

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Actually....no....its not.

If you are stopped in neutral with two Geo metro's behind you, and all of a sudden you hear jake braking and the squeal of 10,000lbs of wal-mart's finest in a semi locking up the brakes....

Your choices are:

1. Neutral = the mayo to a geo metro sandwich.
2. 1st gear = having to fill out a witness form.

10,000? Hah! Our F550 work trucks weigh more than that! Try around 80,000 pounds.

Whiskey, that is assuming that all vehicles travel straight when rear ended. Guess what? They don't! If you're in-between the lanes and the vehicle around your side or rear gets crashed into then chances are good you'll get squished into the broad side of another vehicle.

Even my technique isn't the best and I realize this. However, I believe that unless someone were really ****ing things up I'd be okay to leave my bike in neutral at very long lights after 3-4 cars come to a stop behind me.

[dcx4610]

Even though I'm a newbie, I tend to agree with neutral is only if the bike is parked or I'm moving it. If the engine is running, it's in gear.

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

10,000? Hah! Our F550 work trucks weigh more than that! Try around 80,000 pounds.

Whiskey, that is assuming that all vehicles travel straight when rear ended. Guess what? They don't! If you're in-between the lanes and the vehicle around your side or rear gets crashed into then chances are good you'll get squished into the broad side of another vehicle.

Even my technique isn't the best and I realize this. However, I believe that unless someone were really ****ing things up I'd be okay to leave my bike in neutral at very long lights after 3-4 cars come to a stop behind me.

I was talking about freight...not total weight.