Valve adjustment problem!

[Graugaard]

So let me try to do this short...

when i try to rotate the engine (counter clockwise ofc.) it's stock. i have had everything off to check the valve shims, and then i put it all back together (covers, CCT ..) with correct amount of torque., and i cant make a 360 turn on the engine..

So anyone who tried this before, who know a common reason why this happens, and how to fix it? :/

[cuong-nutz]

I would only think that you put the cams 180* out so now your valves are opening when then should be closed at TDC. Perhaps you have the spark plugs in and can't get the oomph to get it over?

[Graugaard]

narh i made my marks and they are all perfect. and spark plugs have been removed. :/ tried to take it all off and reasambly but same result... very annoying, i do everything after the manual and youtube videos.

I do have some problems with my CCT though... but i guess i fixed it. It was very hard to mount back on the bike imo...

[cuong-nutz]

Have you tried turning it clockwise?

[Graugaard]

The CCT? yes, and then when i had it all turned back, i hold it with a screwdriver and screwed it back on the engine, very hard but after some result it finally made it, and i released the screwdriver and the "arm" popped out on the chain, as i guess it should do.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

narh i made my marks and they are all perfect. and spark plugs have been removed. :/ tried to take it all off and reasambly but same result... very annoying, i do everything after the manual and youtube videos.

I do have some problems with my CCT though... but i guess i fixed it. It was very hard to mount back on the bike imo...

Is the transmission in Neutral?
If so, your re-assembly has a problem.

There is no reason for the tensioner to be "very hard to mount back on the bike.

[Graugaard]

it is... well i found out something.. its the 2 valves on the intake of the 1 cyllender (the one closset to the cam chain), that is very hard to press down for the crankshaft. If i loosen the CCT a little the cam chain will just will just start jump over the teeth, so the CCT should do the job right...

But why are the valves so hard to push down?

[Motofool]

Maybe the shims for those valves are not in place properly and there is no room for the cams to fully go over?

[Graugaard]

hmmm i will try to check the shims, worth a try thanks.

[baxtc1]

I am not familiar with the 08-12 model, but why would you remove the chain tensioner? Sounds like your valve timing is out and valves are hitting the piston.

[Graugaard]

Originally Posted by baxtc1

I am not familiar with the 08-12 model, but why would you remove the chain tensioner? Sounds like your valve timing is out and valves are hitting the piston.

the 2008+ use shims instead of the easy screwing thing, so i have to get these shims below the crankshaft, and to remove the crankshaft i have to remove the CCT else the chain is too tight.

Tried to replace the shims, still hard as .... so must be an untiming... my marks must be wrong even tho they shouldn't be.

any guide how to correct the timing without my marks?

[baxtc1]

I didn't realise you had the cams out. Use the manual to set the timing, if it is the same as the earlier model you will need no.2 cylinder at t.d.c., then align your camshaft marks to the correct position, I do have the service manual for it, but will have to wait until after work before I can have a look.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

............

any guide how to correct the timing without my marks?

Position the crankshaft at #2 piston TDC (there are two turns of the crankshaft for each turn of the camshafts).

CAUTION
The crankshaft may be turned while the camshafts are removed.
Always pull the chain taut while turning the crankshaft.
This avoids kinking the chain on the lower (crankshaft) sprocket.
A kinked chain could damage both the chain and the sprocket.

[indr]

1. You do not remove the cam chain tensioner, the cam chain, or the camshafts to INSPECT valve clearances.

2. To ADJUST valve clearances, you need to remove: 1) The cam chain top guide. 2) Cam chain tensioner. 3) Cam shafts.

3. The cam chain hooks to tooth on the flywheel at the bottom of the engine. If you somehow managed to move the chain even one or two teeth over on that flywheel sprocket, the marks you made are useless. And your timing is now off.

4. Take off the chain tensioner. Take off the cam shafts. Make sure the chain isn't hooking on on anything at the bottom. There is a small protrusion jutting out of the crankcase where the chain got hooked during a valve adjustment. The chain wouldn't move. And when I attempted to start the engine after putting everything back together, there were loud knocking noise. I got lucky. You could end up with broken pistons or valves.

5. In my opinion, the best thing to do at this point is to remove the chain tensioner and both the cam shafts. Take care not to drop the chain to the bottom of the engine. But, also make sure that it's not stuck on anything. Forget about any marks you made on it. Make sure it isn't stuck on anything. Pull it tight straight up, and try to do a complete rotation of the cylinders. I.e. make a marker with a permanent marker on one of the chain links and start pulling on one side of the chain till the mark comes out the other end. If it does, you know there's nothing broken inside that might be preventing the crankshaft from turning.

6. Use the inspection hole on the alternator cover to line up the 2T mark. Do this EXACTLY.

7. Now, go to page 5-18 of the manual. The first diagram shows what the camshafts should look like when the mark in the inspection hole is lined up with 2T.

8. In the diagram, take special note of how the chain links are labelled and which tooth on the cam shaft sprocket fits which link.

9. Put the EX camshaft in first. Now you need to adjust and make sure the teeth are in the position on the chain.

10. Make sure to take the slack off the chain on the EX side of the engine.

11. Refer to the diagram again. Take note that when you're at 2T, the lobes on the camshaft on the RIGHT cylinder at up and facing away from each other.

12. See the diagram again. When your inspection hole mark is at 2T, the engraved line that marks the EX line on your EX camshaft, should be parallel to the top of the engine body mating surface. ALSO, the exact tooth that juts out from where it says EX on the EX camshaft is sitting between the two links on a plate that is half submerged under the mating surface.

13. MAKE SURE that you keep the mark in the inspection hole aligned with 2T for the ABOVE STEP. It'll be very confusing to match up the teeth and links if you're off by even one link.

14. Put in the IN camshaft. This time, make sure that top of the chain is pulled taught.

15. Make sure the EX engraved line on the EX camshaft and the IN engraved line on the IN camshaft run straight and are parallel to the engine top mating surface WHILE making sure that the mark in the inspection hole is at 2T.

16. Again refer to the digram and make sure your teeth on the cam shaft sprockets are in the proper link on the chain.

17. When at 2T in the inspection window and the chain pulled taught by rotating the IN camshaft slightly clockwise to take off slack at the top of the chain, measure the number of links on the chain from mating surface to mating surface referring to the diagram.

18. Once you know you're good, install the camshaft covers and install the cam chain tensioner. (Make SURE that you don't release the chain tensioner before it it fully installed in it's place. You have to hold the spring setting all the way in, install it and then let it go.)

19. Turn the engine to make sure all is okay, and post back if it's not.

I'll try my best to answer any questions you have. I know a small error trying to rush a job can turn into a year long rebuild project.

[Graugaard]

thanks guys! very nice indr, i will try that when i come home and update...

yup sorry, to Adjust the valve clearance was what i meant. but i got all the shim sizes now, so would love to fix it asap, taking the train is a pain out here..

Thanks again! i'll update

[Graugaard]

ok now i timed it correct! Got covers on and all but i just think it is very hard to screw the CCT while holding a screwdriver in it to keep it in place. any tips if u dont have the special holderplate?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

ok now i timed it correct! Got covers on and all but i just think it is very hard to screw the CCT while holding a screwdriver in it to keep it in place. any tips if u dont have the special holderplate?

Does the engine turns more than 360 degrees now?

[Graugaard]

it can make full turns now!!!! thanks a lot!, but its like its hard sometimes and then suddenly become very lose and then hard to spin again, i guess thats normal? no spark plugs in it.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

it can make full turns now!!!! thanks a lot!, but its like its hard sometimes and then suddenly become very lose and then hard to spin again, i guess thats normal? no spark plugs in it.

Yes, that is normal.
It gets hard when you are forcing the cams to compress the springs of the valves and it gets loose when the springs are pushing the cams to rotate faster.

[indr]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

ok now i timed it correct! Got covers on and all but i just think it is very hard to screw the CCT while holding a screwdriver in it to keep it in place. any tips if u dont have the special holderplate?

Get a cheap screwdriver that fits in the slot and cut it down to a total length of about one and a half length of your middle finger. After you retract the rod, use only one hand to hold the CCT and the screwdriver together. You need to apply clockwise pressure on the thing while pushing down on the screwdriver.. All with one hand. Once you attach it to the engine, use a crescent wrench to tighten the two small bolts that hold it in place. It might be hard to use a ratchet because it might get in the way of the other hand holding the CCT and the screwdriver together. Keep practicing or get someone to help you.

[Graugaard]

thanks for the tip! Hmmm i have now spinned it around many times, and when i come to the 2|T mark the EX an IN logo on camshaft are not exactly parallel with the engine block as they were in the start when i put them in place. Picture of the 2 lines in the middle there should be even when its at 2|T.

Should it be EXACTLY at the position as when i putted them in there before installing the CCT and cases or is normal with this diffrence?

i counted the links, they were right, could it be becuase of slack and then when i installed the CCT it removed the slack and made the 2|T incorrect? and should i try again?

[indr]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

thanks for the tip! Hmmm i have now spinned it around many times, and when i come to the 2|T mark the EX an IN logo on camshaft are not exactly parallel with the engine block as they were in the start when i put them in place. Picture of the 2 lines in the middle there should be even when its at 2|T.

Should it be EXACTLY at the position as when i putted them in there before installing the CCT and cases or is normal with this diffrence?

i counted the links, they were right, could it be becuase of slack and then when i installed the CCT it removed the slack and made the 2|T incorrect? and should i try again?

The same thing happened with me. And this was also the case when I did my first valve inspection (i.e. engine untouched from the factory). So, I'm going to go ahead and say that this is fine.

I also remember reading other members point out the same thing with their sprocket settings.

[Graugaard]

okay, but when i wanna messure the TDC on cyl 2, should i then use the T|2 mark or should i align the EX/IN marks on my camshaft with the engine blocks

Thank you guys ur really helping me out of trouble

[indr]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

okay, but when i wanna messure the TDC on cyl 2, should i then use the T|2 mark or should i align the EX/IN marks on my camshaft with the engine blocks

Thank you guys ur really helping me out of trouble

The second one. That's when the lobes on the camshaft are at the proper position to measure clearances. But, the two positions are close enough to not make a difference IMHO.

[Graugaard]

hmmm i tried to time them again just becuase i love playing with this stuff and wollah now they match?! weird. but got my numbers now finally.. will go down to the local kawasaki dealer and get my shims tomorow, 1 ex valve too tight (20mm) and 2 IN was at the last mm (15) so will replace 3 shims.

What sizes are the shims a ninja 250 use?

I'm not 100% sure which hose goes were and so on, so i will probably make a new topic later when i get to that point if i get problems but so far thanks alot!!!!

[cuong-nutz]

7.48mm diameter.

[felo]

this is from the ninja 300 service manual, but i guess they use the same shims
hope this helps

[Graugaard]

Thanks a lot guys! Very nice help to get here. Now all my IN's are at 0,20 and EX at 0,25... had to pay 90$ for 4 used shims at the local motorshop.... WTF... yea thats sick i know but anyway will get a kit next time and never support danish motorcycle shops again, sicking tired of their prices,

[cuong-nutz]

for 90 dollars you could have enough shims for at least 2 complete valve changes! Either way, get'r' dun!

[lgk]

talk about price gouging...
the shims are $1 tops...

[Graugaard]

DEnmark have crazy prices on everyhing.,...

A ninja 250 cost 11.600$
A zx10r cost 53.570$

Gas cost
8,5$ each gallon

One working hour at a mechanic cost 120$ So it's really not surprising me that i could have got them for 1$ in US and have to pay 90 here -.- ... i gonna move to sweden soon maybe, not nearly as cheap as the US but half price compared to Denmark... love socialism... (not)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

............ i gonna move to sweden soon maybe.........

First, check if they have Carlsberg and Tuborg beers over there

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Graugaard

thanks for the tip! Hmmm i have now spinned it around many times, and when i come to the 2|T mark the EX an IN logo on camshaft are not exactly parallel with the engine block as they were in the start when i put them in place. Picture of the 2 lines in the middle there should be even when its at 2|T.

Should it be EXACTLY at the position as when i putted them in there before installing the CCT and cases or is normal with this diffrence?

i counted the links, they were right, could it be becuase of slack and then when i installed the CCT it removed the slack and made the 2|T incorrect? and should i try again?

The marks should be parallel with the head per the manual. Mine were and still are right on.